We're waiting for the Oldham Loop...

[Starmill]

Huh. I had no idea there was so much bad feeling out there towards Metrolink. I've been sufficiently impressed by the new investments in the service to trial switching my commute to it - that's an approx 0745 journey from Picadilly to stretford and it has coped admirably. I've had a seat nearly every day - and on the approx 1630 return journey. I was previously using the bus - which was far dirtier and slower, offered less chance of a seat and a much lower ride quality (the switch was as a result of some very complicated cost calculations, and the faff involved with getting to Picadilly (from Mauldeth Road) at that time).

And as for "apathy" - if the residents of Altrincham WANT those 142s, they're welcome to them. Just stop using them on Manchester Airport services.

 

[spargazer]

Are you trying to troll? Comparing light rail to heavy rail is stupid at best, misleading for sure.

Metrolink isn't trying to be a railway but a metro. The two are very different different. Especially as heavy rail also uses long distance services.

Metrolink (Altrincham Manchester) has deterioriated since it became light rail, it is simply a cash cow for TfGM and they do not care one bit, I live in Sale and rarely get a seat on an M5000 and on the return head towards Piccadilly to make sure that I get a seat, when the T67s disappear there will be be real problems as the M5000s cannot be joined together. The M5000s have smaller wheels than the older ones and are slow and unstable at 40+mph so if you are standing it is hell on earth.
The A56 has a few short lengths of bus lanes and why, they would be much much faster with bus lanes (aka A6 in Stockport) and, be a threat to those miseable and wretched trams. I sometimes us the bus rather risk breaking my neck than stand in a rickety or stationary tram that may fail at any time. The new M5000 is trash when compared to what they have replaced and, sir, and when the T67/8 have gone I doubt if I will ever use the tram and before you say it I am nor trolling, that is very rude and nasty of you and indicates to me that you are about to lose the argument. :-x

 

[tbtc]

Metrolink (Altrincham Manchester) has deterioriated since it became light rail, it is simply a cash cow for TfGM

If its a cash cow, why are they spending hundreds of millions on new routes/ new trams etc?

 

[northwichcat]

HAnd as for "apathy" - if the residents of Altrincham WANT those 142s, they're welcome to them. Just stop using them on Manchester Airport services.

Who said anything about the Altrincham line wanting 142s? 142s were only introduced on Chester-Manchester services after conversion of the Sale line and privatisation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you trying to troll? Comparing light rail to heavy rail is stupid at best, misleading for sure.

Metrolink isn't trying to be a railway but a metro.

No I'm not trying to troll. You seem to be the one trying to troll with posting ridiculous comments like this one.

The Altrincham, Bury and Oldham lines were fairly successful working heavy rail lines before they got turned over to Metrolink, so comparing them to heavy rail is a similar comparison to comparing Silverlink Metro to London Overground.

As I've already said Metrolink was only built as a cheap alternative to a heavy rail link in the city centre due to the finances available at the time.

There is nothing misleading about comparing those lines to heavy rail but it would be very misleading to compare them to a bus service, which some people try and do.

The two are very different different. Especially as heavy rail also uses long distance services.

Precisely the problem, the Sale line is still needed for heavy rail. Due to the work being undertaken on the Chat Moss line currently some freight from Salford Quays trying to go in the direction of Warrington has been diverted via Piccadilly platforms 13/14, Northenden, Northwich and Weaver Junction. Had the Sale line still been heavy rail there would no need to divert it so far, put it on to single track sections or put it through the 2 busiest platforms in Manchester.

 

[tbtc]

Due to the work being undertaken on the Chat Moss line currently some freight from Salford Quays trying to go in the direction of Warrington has been diverted via Piccadilly platforms 13/14, Northenden, Northwich and Weaver Junction. Had the Sale line still been heavy rail there would no need to divert it so far, put it on to single track sections or put it through the 2 busiest platforms in Manchester.

Is this another one of those "we should have spent millions of pounds to save something that happens a handful of times a week" things?

 

[northwichcat]

as the M5000s cannot be joined together.

They can but they can't call at Mosely Street if they do, so none currently work joined up while Mosely Street remains open.

The M5000s have smaller wheels than the older ones and are slow and unstable at 40+mph so if you are standing it is hell on earth.

According to some people the bad ride is because the T68s have badly grooved the track, even though almost the Altrincham line was relayed recently.

why are they spending hundreds of millions on new routes/ new trams etc?

Unlike in other areas where trams have been introduced to provide new links or to run services on disused rail lines, they started by converting two well used lines and then when they had made profits from those two lines, they built a new link to Salford Quays and Eccles. The phase 3 plans include a mixture of new links, links that used to exist but stopped and replacement links for heavy rail.

GMPTE/TfGM have taken a lot less of a risk with Metrolink than has been done in Nottingham or Sheffield.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is this another one of those "we should have spent millions of pounds to save something that happens a handful of times a week" things?

No. As I've mentioned before Stockport-Manchester doesn't have enough capacity for local services or freight due to Virgin taking more paths.

If freight could run via Northenden and Timperley to then there would have been no need for the 20 or so extra lorries every weekday introduced to the roads when Freightliner lost one of their daily paths between Stockport and Manchester.

I also don't know where the millions of pounds to 'save it' comes from when initially it costed millions to convert to Metrolink. We're not talking about the Penistone Line or Settle to Carlisle that were at risk of closure. In fact Beeching saw the Manchester-Sale-Chester as a line with more potential to the Manchester-Warrington-Chester line and even suggested Warrington-Chester could be closed in a second round of cuts, which never went ahead.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No. As I've mentioned before Stockport-Manchester doesn't have enough capacity for local services or freight due to Virgin taking more paths. If freight could run via Northenden and Timperley to then there would have been no need for the 20 or so extra lorries every weekday introduced to the roads when Freightliner lost one of their daily paths between Stockport and Manchester.

There are existing container service trains that already use the Styal line. What freight services (and starting and finishing depots) are referred to in your statement above, between Stockport and Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

There are existing container service trains that already use the Styal line. What freight services (and starting and finishing depots) are referred to in your statement above, between Stockport and Manchester.

The Styal line is also at near maximum capacity north of the Airport, remember a container train takes enough paths for multiple DMU/EMU services.

There was a program on BBC a couple of years back where Pete Waterman was interviewing a manager from Freightliner and he mentioned the number of paths they had to Trafford Park were cut by one per day in 2008 due to Virgin wanting more paths for 3tph on Manchester-London.

 

[HSTEd]

The Styal line is also at near maximum capacity north of the Airport, remember a container train takes enough paths for multiple DMU/EMU services.

There was a program on BBC a couple of years back where Pete Waterman was interviewing a manager from Freightliner and he mentioned the number of paths they had to Trafford Park were cut by one per day in 2008 due to Virgin wanting more paths for 3tph on Manchester-London.

And this is the crux of our capacity problems.

We need either to make our freight trains heavier with the current performance profile or we need to make them perform like they are suburban multiple units. The former causes issues with train length and the latter requires freight multiple units.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Metrolink (Altrincham Manchester) has deterioriated since it became light rail, it is simply a cash cow for TfGM.

I think that you could have worded your statement above a little better because on reading what you have written, my immediate thoughts on the matter was that the Manchester Metrolink system has always been a light rail service.

I presume that you were making a comparison between the former heavy rail service and the current light rail service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Styal line is also at near maximum capacity north of the Airport, remember a container train takes enough paths for multiple DMU/EMU services.

Remembering that these container train services also pass through Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road and Deansgate stations, how many allowed pathways are these freight services allocated in a 24-hour period.

Realistically, they take the quickest route to the Trafford Park containerbase.

 

[martin2345uk]

The bad ride on the Altrincham line is apparently due to the t68s creating a wear pattern that the m5000s don't like... The problem with having a non standard fleet. The SML line which very rarely sees t68s is smooth as anything even when they do 50mph...

 

[Rail Bus]

The bad ride on the Altrincham line is apparently due to the t68s creating a wear pattern that the m5000s don't like... The problem with having a non standard fleet. The SML line which very rarely sees t68s is smooth as anything even when they do 50mph...

so the tracks on the Altrincham will have to be replaced again?

 

[snail]

Incidentally snail would you be happy to see the heavy rail route from Bolton converted to Metrolink?

Happily, if it took people off the longer distance trains. Can't wait for the electric services via Chat Moss.

 

[WatcherZero]

so the tracks on the Altrincham will have to be replaced again?

No, just the regular grinding and time without T68's will cause the wear patterns to dissapear.

 

[Class377/5]

No I'm not trying to troll. You seem to be the one trying to troll with posting ridiculous comments like this one.

The Altrincham, Bury and Oldham lines were fairly successful working heavy rail lines before they got turned over to Metrolink, so comparing them to heavy rail is a similar comparison to comparing Silverlink Metro to London Overground.

As I've already said Metrolink was only built as a cheap alternative to a heavy rail link in the city centre due to the finances available at the time.

There is nothing misleading about comparing those lines to heavy rail but it would be very misleading to compare them to a bus service, which some people try and do.

So your only comparing those three Metrolink lines to heavy rail and Sliverlink/LO then, not the other three (including the Airport line) then?

Er, I never mentioned buses, so your comparing my comments to others?

 

[northwichcat]

So your only comparing those three Metrolink lines to heavy rail and Sliverlink/LO then, not the other three (including the Airport line) then?

I don't know how you get 3 new lines and 3 converted.

Ignoring the city centre bit that all lines use. There are 4 lines currently usable:
1. Bury (heavy rail conversion)
2. Altrincham (heavy rail conversion)
3. Salford Quays/Eccles (new light rail line)
4. Chorlton (spur off the converted Altrincham line using a disused heavy rail spur and a bit of street running)

There's also 2 under construction:
1. Oldham/Rochdale (heavy rail conversion that will be re-routed through Oldham)
2. Ashton-under-Lyme (new light rail line)

Plus obviously the Chorlton line will diverge in to two separate lines, currently under construction, making 7 in total - 3 of which will be heavy rail conversion, 2 of which will be new lines and 2 of which will use both heavy rail conversion and new sections.

Er, I never mentioned buses, so your comparing my comments to others?

I said some people compare Metrolink to buses, I didn't say you did. You said my comparison to heavy rail wasn't fair so I was explaining why it is fairer than a bus comparison.

 

[Class377/5]

I don't know how you get 3 new lines and 3 converted.

Ignoring the city centre bit that all lines use. There are 4 lines currently usable:
1. Bury (heavy rail conversion)
2. Altrincham (heavy rail conversion)
3. Salford Quays/Eccles (new light rail line)
4. Chorlton (spur off the converted Altrincham line using a disused heavy rail spur and a bit of street running)

There's also 2 under construction:
1. Oldham/Rochdale (heavy rail conversion that will be re-routed through Oldham)
2. Ashton-under-Lyme (new light rail line)

Plus obviously the Chorlton line will diverge in to two separate lines, currently under construction, making 7 in total - 3 of which will be heavy rail conversion, 2 of which will be new lines and 2 of which will use both heavy rail conversion and new sections.

I said some people compare Metrolink to buses, I didn't say you did. You said my comparison to heavy rail wasn't fair so I was explaining why it is fairer than a bus comparison.

You get them this way, I'd forgotten Eccles.

Converted - Altrincham, Bury & Oldham
New - Didsbury, Airport, Eccles & Ashton.

Didsbury is not a converted line as it wasn't running when the Metrolink was built. Especially as your comparing converted railway lines with the Metrolink.

Also you mention the Chorlton line has street running? Where? As you said you'd ignore the City Centre, can you show me where this street running is? Unless you believe the Chorlton line is the Airport line? Which would be wrong as Chorlton is only served currently by the future Didsbury - Rochdale line.

You didn't explain that comparing a bus to Metrolink was unfair. You simply expressed your opinion that comparing the two were unfair. And in reply to myself so it seemed you were suggesting I did.

 

[northwichcat]

Class377/5 - How is the Metrolink going to get from Didsbury to Deansgate without using a converted line considering Trafford Bar is the old Old Trafford BR station on the Manchester-Altrincham line that was converted?

Ignore the bit about street running that was because I read some rubbish from the M.E.N.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ignore the bit about street running that was because I read some rubbish from the M.E.N.

Not exactly the best newspaper to believe.

This is the same newspaper at the time of the Strangeways prison riot decided to go with the front page banner headline of "20 dead"...even though they were told that there was no substance to this.

I might be advancing somewhat in years, but my memory is still retentive of such matters.

 

[northwichcat]

Not exactly the best newspaper to believe.

Just read the first line of one of their stories published today and it says "Greater Manchester is set to take control of the region’s railways"
Oh dear.

 

[Class377/5]

Class377/5 - How is the Metrolink going to get from Didsbury to Deansgate without using a converted line considering Trafford Bar is the old Old Trafford BR station on the Manchester-Altrincham line that was converted?

Ignore the bit about street running that was because I read some rubbish from the M.E.N.

Ah good point. Id forgotten that part. Was being a bit simple in my arguement but your right, they are dependant on the converted lines.

Remember wen M.E.N. was a Metrolink supporter and backed the network up?

 

[northwichcat]

Remember wen M.E.N. was a Metrolink supporter and backed the network up?

To be honest I don't think the MEN aren't being that anti-Metrolink. Look here:
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...ces-from-altrincham-to-manchester-city-centre

They've simply reported there was a problem with the OHE today which caused delays. They've not even mentioned that there was also a failed tram this morning, even though they reported Friday's failed tram, which is a bit inconsistent in their reporting but that works in Metrolink favour this time.

It's the readers who are posting the negative comments about the system in the comments section.

Again on Friday they reported the problem - the readers post the negative comments:
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...-altrincham-and-bury-lines-after-tram-failure

3 major problems in 2 working days - can you imagine how that would be reported by the Daily Mail if they didn't just moan about London public transport problems?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

3 major problems in 2 working days - can you imagine how that would be reported by the Daily Mail if they didn't just moan about London public transport problems?

There is enough "ammunition" for them to use with the London public transport problems, without the need to look elsewhere.

 

[tbtc]

How is the Metrolink going to get from Didsbury to Deansgate without using a converted line considering Trafford Bar is the old Old Trafford BR station on the Manchester-Altrincham line that was converted?

When did trains last run on that trackbed to Didsbury? Is it a fair comparison to put this in the "converted heavy rail" bracket when its not been an operational passenger railway for a long time?

To be honest I don't think the MEN aren't being that anti-Metrolink. Look here:
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...ces-from-altrincham-to-manchester-city-centre

They've simply reported there was a problem with the OHE today which caused delays. They've not even mentioned that there was also a failed tram this morning, even though they reported Friday's failed tram, which is a bit inconsistent in their reporting but that works in Metrolink favour this time.

It's the readers who are posting the negative comments about the system in the comments section.

Again on Friday they reported the problem - the readers post the negative comments:
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...-altrincham-and-bury-lines-after-tram-failure

3 major problems in 2 working days - can you imagine how that would be reported by the Daily Mail if they didn't just moan about London public transport problems?

Then again there were problems with trains in Manchester too - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65811 - the difference being that that doesn't help the "trams are bad" agenda

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Class377/5 - How is the Metrolink going to get from Didsbury to Deansgate without using a converted line considering Trafford Bar is the old Old Trafford BR station on the Manchester-Altrincham line that was converted?

Are you referring to the former heavy rail route from Manchester Central station to Guide Bridge, via Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Wilbraham Road, Fallowfield, Levenshulme South and Hyde Road, on the route usually referred to as the Fallowfield Loop line. That line bifurcated past Chorlton-cum-Hardy and also provided a service from Manchester Central station to Stockport Tiviot Dale station

 

[snail]

Are you referring to the former heavy rail route from Manchester Central station to Guide Bridge, via Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Wilbraham Road, Fallowfield, Levenshulme South and Hyde Road, on the route usually referred to as the Fallowfield Loop line. That line bifurcated past Chorlton-cum-Hardy and also provided a service from Manchester Central station to Stockport Tiviot Dale station

Claiming that section is a heavy rail conversion is tenuous to say the least. I don't think you can say that reopening a closed alignment is equivalent to converting heavy rail to light rail.

I agree about Trafford Bar, the Midland line from Central Station used the high viaducts at Cornbrook then dropped down to Throstle Nest Junction (using I think what is approximately the Eccles line city-bound track). Throstle Nest is where the GMP headquarters are now built, between Chester Road and the Ship Canal. You can see the bricked up tunnel where the Metrolink South Manchester line curves sharply to join the Altrincham route at Trafford Bar.

So Midland trains never stopped at Trafford Bar, neither did Altrincham trains run on the Cornbrook viaduct that was utilised for Metrolink, they used the current CLC line alongside the Bridgewater Canal.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Claiming that section is a heavy rail conversion is tenuous to say the least. I don't think you can say that reopening a closed alignment is equivalent to converting heavy rail to light rail.

So Midland trains never stopped at Trafford Bar, neither did Altrincham trains run on the Cornbrook viaduct that was utilised for Metrolink, they used the current CLC line alongside the Bridgewater Canal.

I can give some dates now. Passenger services on the Fallowfield Loop line ceased in 1958....freight services ran until 1988.

The demise of Stockport Tiviot Dale station on the other part of the bifurcated route just after Chorlton-cum-Hardy station occurred on 2nd January 1967.

So it would appear that one route has had no passenger services for 54 years and the other route has had no passenger services for 45 years.

 

[northwichcat]

Then again there were problems with trains in Manchester too - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65811 - the difference being that that doesn't help the "trams are bad" agenda

On this occasion the main problem was outside of Northern's and Network Rail's control.

At least Northern and other operators arrange replacement bus services if multiple services are cancelled where quite often they get one to run semi-fast and another to run all stops. On the other hand Metrolink advise passengers to use normal bus services unless there is scheduled maintenance and quite often the passengers are told to use the bus services before Arriva have told the bus drivers.

Are you referring to the former heavy rail route from Manchester Central station to Guide Bridge, via Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Wilbraham Road, Fallowfield, Levenshulme South and Hyde Road, on the route usually referred to as the Fallowfield Loop line. That line bifurcated past Chorlton-cum-Hardy and also provided a service from Manchester Central station to Stockport Tiviot Dale station

No. I was referring to that fact that the 'new' South Manchester Metrolink lines will run on the converted Altrincham line for a section.

 

[table38]

There's an article in the MEN today about the possibility of further expanding Metrolink Trams onto rail lines. (Insert or depending on your point of view)

I'm not familiar with the "pioneering bid to run trams on train tracks in Yorkshire" but I'm thinking the only scope for this in the TfGM area without affecting longer distance rail services would be Manchester/Glossop/Hadfield and maybe Manchester/Hyde/Marple Rose Hill?

 

[northwichcat]

There's an article in the MEN today about the possibility of further expanding Metrolink Trams onto rail lines. (Insert or depending on your point of view)

I'm not familiar with the "pioneering bid to run trams on train tracks in Yorkshire" but I'm thinking the only scope for this in the TfGM area without affecting longer distance rail services would be Manchester/Glossop/Hadfield and maybe Manchester/Hyde/Marple Rose Hill?

They mean tram-trains with the pioneering scheme being the Rotherham-Sheffield tram-train using a product that already exists in Germany and France. :roll:

I've heard a few potential Manchester area tram-train schemes mentioned, as you've mentioned Glossop and Rose Hill Marple. Also mooted has been Manchester to Warrington Central, Northwich-Manchester via Sale, Stockport to Manchester Airport via Baguley and Macclesfield-Manchester. Although, I think Macclesfield-Manchester was ruled out.