We're waiting for the Oldham Loop...

[tbtc]

Replacing Pacers with similar sized vehicles today would not be common sense. The railways are now a lot better utilised than in the early 1980s.

..and similarly the railways are now a lot better utilised than in the early 1990s, yet you think that the Metrolink should be blamed on not being built around passenger demands twenty years later.

Pacers (and 153s) were sufficient capacity for lines in the 1980s in the way that the trams were sufficient capacity when they were introduced on the initial Metrolink lines in the 1990s.

 

[pemma]

..and similarly the railways are now a lot better utilised than in the early 1990s, yet you think that the Metrolink should be blamed on not being built around passenger demands twenty years later.

The Beeching Cuts didn't allow for passenger demand returning. Yet Blackburn-Clitheroe, which closed under Beeching, reopened around the same time that Metrolink opened.

the trams were sufficient capacity when they were introduced on the initial Metrolink lines in the 1990s.

Very much so the case as initially commuter traffic on Metrolink was lower than expected but leisure travellers were higher than expected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Should I dare point out that the stock for the proposed Picc-Vicc tunnel would have had Longitudal seating like the Underground, hence even fewer seats :P

And where would they have run to and from?

Would Altrincham-Manchester passengers have still lost the 4 car express trains via Sale?

 

[WatcherZero]

And where would they have run to and from?

Would Altrincham-Manchester passengers have still lost the 4 car express trains via Sale?

Bolton and Bury to Alderley Edge, Macclesfield and Hazel Grove initially, could well have been expanded to include another link between the Altrincham and Oldham line and other destinations if built, considering Oldham line was almost closed by the Government around then.

 

[pemma]

Bolton and Bury to Alderley Edge, Macclesfield and Hazel Grove initially, could well have been expanded to include another link between the Altrincham and Oldham line and other destinations if built, considering Oldham line was almost closed by the Government around then.

So it sounds just like a typical European S-Bahn service whereby if you're doing end-to-end there's alternative options which are usually faster.

Incidentally, longitudinal seating has some good points:
1. Ever been on a crowded former FNW 150? If you sit on one of the airline seats you hardly have room to move your legs (in most seats) but if you sit on a longitudinal seat you can move your legs.
2. Sometimes it difficult to see which airline seats are unoccupied due to not being able to see through seat backs or people.
3. Passengers can't sit in an aisle seat and leave the window seat free.

One other observation is that you compared LU style seating to Metrolink seating. There's an obvious difference there in that one is much longer in length than the other.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

24mins isn't short? Really? I walk that every day to get to the nearest Tube station.

Walking and standing still are not the same.

I can walk for over an hour without taking a break, if I try and stand for less than half that time my legs feel funny when I start to move again.

And remember what I can do and what you can do isn't the same as some rail passengers can do. Remember some commuters are around 65 years old and others may have been ill and returned to work before fully recovering.

 

[185]

11 Jun is correct. Will be exactly seven days after the new depot becomes operational. )

 

[Class377/5]

Walking and standing still are not the same.

I can walk for over an hour without taking a break, if I try and stand for less than half that time my legs feel funny when I start to move again.

And remember what I can do and what you can do isn't the same as some rail passengers can do. Remember some commuters are around 65 years old and others may have been ill and returned to work before fully recovering.

If some commuters can't stand, should you be encouging other younger, fitter persons to give up their seat. That said, no gurateed under heavy rail said commuters would get a seat so it doesn't apply to Metrolink, but railways and tramways together.

What I was trying to say is for most people, 24mins isn't that far. If they are on any longer than they will be passed Victoria and therefore benefit greater from the conversion (and be in pro Metrolink camp).

 

[pemma]

If some commuters can't stand, should you be encouging other younger, fitter persons to give up their seat. That said, no gurateed under heavy rail said commuters would get a seat so it doesn't apply to Metrolink, but railways and tramways together.

I agree standing is an issue on all forms of public transport.

I'm aware Merseytravel set targets for Merseyrail for number of standing, maximum time spent standing (in common with other rail operators) and additionally number of platform seats in proportion to number of passengers boarding. Do Metrolink have such targets?

I'm well aware that many heavy rail operators aren't meeting standing targets.

What I was trying to say is for most people, 24mins isn't that far.

It doesn't mean they are happy to stand. You can hear people boarding Altrincham-Piccadilly trams at Stretford bemoan a lack of seats.

(and be in pro Metrolink camp).

I think a lot of people will see advantages and disadvantages to Metrolink. A man from Oldham who works in the Deansgate area of Manchester would seem to be one of the main people benefiting from the change. However, if he has a daughter who is at university in Liverpool then if she has two suitcases with her then she can't use Metrolink or if she's just visiting for the day with no luggage then she still loses out as she can't use a 16-25 railcard on Metrolink.

 

[Rail Bus]

Huh. I had no idea there was so much bad feeling out there towards Metrolink. I've been sufficiently impressed by the new investments in the service to trial switching my commute to it - that's an approx 0745 journey from Picadilly to stretford and it has coped admirably. I've had a seat nearly every day - and on the approx 1630 return journey. I was previously using the bus - which was far dirtier and slower, offered less chance of a seat and a much lower ride quality (the switch was as a result of some very complicated cost calculations, and the faff involved with getting to Picadilly (from Mauldeth Road) at that time).

thing is your comparing the Metrolink against bus services - I am comparing it against the heavy rail service it replaced

 

[spargazer]

people will be moaning getting on at Timperley when there are only M5000 trams running, it is not deasigned for the real traveller, the disabled, the elderly, mothers with lots of children and disabilty scooters, only for the under 50s and the young and beautiful people. ie self loading freight will be able to tolerate such a subsatandard service that is not covered by health and safety laws. If this was legal in air travel Ryanair would go this way

The Oldam Loop passengers do not realise how utterly awful and abyssmal their travelling will be after June 11th. Pacer Heaven existed untill Oct 2009:cry:

 

[tbtc]

Passengers complain about things (I've heard a few references to moderns stock as being "old clapped out trains" etc by passengers) - the wry Mancunian humour is bound to mean some negative comments for Metrolink.

Of course this argument is based on the assumption that there was no standing on the heavy rail services to Oldham, there were no missing service on the heavy rail services to Oldham, there were no services turned back on the heavy rail services to Oldham etc

 

[futureA]

rant removed

You don't know what you are talking about. One of the reasons the m5000's have less seats is to make them more accessible to the disabled and people with push chairs.

Maybe you have forgotten that the 142's are non compliant with current regs and have steps in the doorways meaning that people in wheelchairs can't get on.

 

[142094]

Maybe you have forgotten that the 142's are non compliant with current regs and have steps in the doorways meaning that people in wheelchairs can't get on.

This has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, and although Pacers will be around til 2019 at the earliest, some people think that there will be dispensation given if replacement rolling stock cannot be ordered.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe you have forgotten that the 142's are non compliant with current regs and have steps in the doorways meaning that people in wheelchairs can't get on.

Is this compliancy a fully-described legal matter, as if it is so, operational matters at the time of the law being enacted surely cannot be placed above a rule of law....or can they?

Can any forum members kindly give the exact legal ruling on DDA compliancy.

 

[pemma]

Maybe you have forgotten that the 142's are non compliant with current regs and have steps in the doorways meaning that people in wheelchairs can't get on.

Wheelchairs can be loaded on to Pacers but need an extended ramp to do so, which isn't suitable to use at every station platform. There are 2, 3 or 4 longitudinal bench seats on a Pacer near the doors, which can be folded up to allow a wheelchair to be parked. (There were 2 at either end of the train originally making 4 in total, one got replaced by a luggage/cycle rack on most trains and on the 7 that FGW refreshed they removed another one to make it a permanent wheelchair space.)

Is this compliancy a fully-described legal matter, as if it is so, operational matters at the time of the law being enacted surely cannot be placed above a rule of law....or can they?

Can any forum members kindly give the exact legal ruling on DDA compliancy.

DDA has been incorporated in to another Act known as the Equalities Act.

It is expected that all public transport will be fully accessible from 1st January 2020. This date was decided in 1994 and was partly due to 2020 being beyond the expected life expectancy of the 158s (30 years for a DMU), so while it wasn't a certainty that 158s and other Sprinters would need replacing within 30 years it was assumed that if they spent over 30 years in service they would be given a full refurbishment, which could be made to include DDA requirements at the time of refurbishment.

However, there are two instances where Philip Hammond (when he was Transport Secretary) stated that an exemption order could be given:
1. For a vehicle that is approaching the end of it's life at the end of 2019 with only minor infringements. (He didn't define minor.)
2. In an emergency if a number of complaint vehicles were out-of-service then non-complaint vehicles could be reintroduced on a temporary basis instead of not running a service.

 

[WatcherZero]

The regs dont all come into force at once either, they are gradually phased in over a few years becoming increasingly severe (e.g. signage, PIDs, coloured hand rails) with 31st Dec 2019 being the final date for access. All classes ordered after the act passed had to be fully compatible straight away and several classes were given temporary minor exemptions.

A few were given pemanent exemptions, for instance Class 390, was an exemption granted that the fridge doors required 25 Newtons to open whereas the act said that any passenger doors must be openable with a maximum of 15 Newtons. The passenger tables were supposed to have a minimum height of 720mm but since they were adjustable between 680mm-760mm an excemption was granted. They applied and were granted an exemption from the rules stating carpeted areas in saloon/vestibule must have contrasted colours arguing they were slighlty different but it needed them both to be dark to hide stains

 

[Class377/5]

I agree standing is an issue on all forms of public transport.

I'm aware Merseytravel set targets for Merseyrail for number of standing, maximum time spent standing (in common with other rail operators) and additionally number of platform seats in proportion to number of passengers boarding. Do Metrolink have such targets?

I'm well aware that many heavy rail operators aren't meeting standing targets.

It doesn't mean they are happy to stand. You can hear people boarding Altrincham-Piccadilly trams at Stretford bemoan a lack of seats.

I think a lot of people will see advantages and disadvantages to Metrolink. A man from Oldham who works in the Deansgate area of Manchester would seem to be one of the main people benefiting from the change. However, if he has a daughter who is at university in Liverpool then if she has two suitcases with her then she can't use Metrolink or if she's just visiting for the day with no luggage then she still loses out as she can't use a 16-25 railcard on Metrolink.

I wonder if Metrolink has guideline or whether it's all based around units in service and worked out as an average?

To be honest, I bet people would find something to complain about if every tram was a double. Or if 142 or 332 were on the line. Moaning is something we do a lot of in this country.

I'd rather use a tram with suitcases with lifts or level access than use a train, especially a 142. Metrolink is designed with level access, heavy rail isn't.

As for discount ticketing, that's a TfGM/DfT issue and not something to lump together with complains of not enough seats etc.

 

[tbtc]

As for discount ticketing, that's a TfGM/DfT issue and not something to lump together with complains of not enough seats etc.

I presume that this is something which would be tackled if/when TfGM get the level of influence over the heavy rail services in/around Manchester that they want

 

[pemma]

To be honest, I bet people would find something to complain about if every tram was a double.

Well there's an obvious one, similar to non-corridor linked heavy rail stock. If both doubled up trams are packed but they empty out at a different rate it could mean people are standing on one while the other has empty seats.

I'd rather use a tram with suitcases with lifts or level access than use a train, especially a 142. Metrolink is designed with level access, heavy rail isn't.

Large luggage isn't permitted on Metrolink. There used to be a no suitcases rule which has been relaxed slightly but if problems occur with there being too many suitcases I imagine they'll enforce the original restriction and say it has been there all along, like they did with mobility scooters.

As for discount ticketing, that's a TfGM/DfT issue and not something to lump together with complains of not enough seats etc.

Railcards are a nationwide National Rail product, so conversion of lines loses that benefit for eligible people.

GMPTE/TfGM shouldn't have launched Metrolink while there were through ticketing issues that needed addressing, never mind launching new lines 20 years later without sorting out the original issues. I think even putting Michael O'Leary in charge of Metrolink ticketing would be an improvement on the current situation.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

I presume that this is something which would be tackled if/when TfGM get the level of influence over the heavy rail services in/around Manchester that they want

Highly unlikely.

TfGM have no interest in anything beyond their boundaries, and refuse to admit that anyone would wish to travel anywhere outside Manchester.

Their insularity is such that it is a major surprise that they have actually used standard gauge for their tram system.

Giving this bunch of clowns more power over heavy rail is a recipe for disaster.

 

[pemma]

TfGM have no interest in anything beyond their boundaries, and refuse to admit that anyone would wish to travel anywhere outside Manchester.

Not quite true. They admit to people travelling beyond the boundaries using a Wayfarer ticket but that ticket is of little use for someone from Altrincham or Stockport travelling in to Cheshire due to the cost compared to the end of validity area. Add zones to the Wayfarer ticket and different prices for how many zones you use and it would be much more useful.

that it is a major surprise that they have actually used standard gauge for their tram system.

Not really, it started off as conversions of standard gauge heavy rail. It would have been more expensive to rebuild it all to a different gauge.

 

[tbtc]

Highly unlikely.

TfGM have no interest in anything beyond their boundaries, and refuse to admit that anyone would wish to travel anywhere outside Manchester.

Their insularity is such that it is a major surprise that they have actually used standard gauge for their tram system.

Giving this bunch of clowns more power over heavy rail is a recipe for disaster.

Merseyrail seem to focus on their own neck of the woods too, same with Nexus etc, but don't seem to get the same criticism.

Rightly or wrongly it looks like they'll have more power over trains when the new franchises are set up, and I'd suggest that this means more chances of Metrolink integration (tickets etc).

 

[WatcherZero]

Also by law PTE's not allowed to subsidise services more than 10km beyond their geographical boundarys.

 

[Class377/5]

I presume that this is something which would be tackled if/when TfGM get the level of influence over the heavy rail services in/around Manchester that they want

Perhaps if the northern PTA's get together then they can create something?

Well there's an obvious one, similar to non-corridor linked heavy rail stock. If both doubled up trams are packed but they empty out at a different rate it could mean people are standing on one while the other has empty seats.

Large luggage isn't permitted on Metrolink. There used to be a no suitcases rule which has been relaxed slightly but if problems occur with there being too many suitcases I imagine they'll enforce the original restriction and say it has been there all along, like they did with mobility scooters.

Railcards are a nationwide National Rail product, so conversion of lines loses that benefit for eligible people.

GMPTE/TfGM shouldn't have launched Metrolink while there were through ticketing issues that needed addressing, never mind launching new lines 20 years later without sorting out the original issues. I think even putting Michael O'Leary in charge of Metrolink ticketing would be an improvement on the current situation.

I didn't realise large luggage is banned but do they define what large is?

The point of emptying out is just just as valid on most heavy rail units tbf.

As for your last point, you mean launching conversations not just new lines? Other wises it's petty to not want others to have new builds (think Eccles and Ashton). Agreed some through tickets should have be dealt with before now.

 

[tbtc]

Well there's an obvious one, similar to non-corridor linked heavy rail stock. If both doubled up trams are packed but they empty out at a different rate it could mean people are standing on one while the other has empty seats

The point of emptying out is just just as valid on most heavy rail units tbf

It happens on non-corridor linked stock, but then it also happens on corridor linked stock - once you are standing in a carriage you aren't that likely to wander through to the next carriage in case of a spare seat - I've seen plenty intercity services where the first couple of coaches look rammed as the train pulls into the station but a coach toward the rear is emptier.

Not really a Metrolink specific issue.

 

[142094]

It happens on non-corridor linked stock, but then it also happens on corridor linked stock - once you are standing in a carriage you aren't that likely to wander through to the next carriage in case of a spare seat - I've seen plenty intercity services where the first couple of coaches look rammed as the train pulls into the station but a coach toward the rear is emptier.

Most of the terminii stations you see this - e.g. FCC at KGX in the peak, back 4 carriages are rammed and the front 4 usually have a good few seats spare.

 

[snail]

Railcards are a nationwide National Rail product, so conversion of lines loses that benefit for eligible people.

That hasn't prevented TfL from applying railcard discounts to tube and bus* journeys for Oyster users or allowing people to buy discounted Travelcards.

* bus by way of the daily cap; tube journeys are discounted individually

 

[pemma]

The point of emptying out is just just as valid on most heavy rail units tbf.

Not really a Metrolink specific issue.

Not again!

I was specifically responding to this comment

I bet people would find something to complain about if every tram was a double

with

Well there's an obvious one, similar to non-corridor linked heavy rail stock. If both doubled up trams are packed but they empty out at a different rate it could mean people are standing on one while the other has empty seats

I even mentioned it was the same on non-corridor linked heavy rail stock.

It happens on non-corridor linked stock, but then it also happens on corridor linked stock - once you are standing in a carriage you aren't that likely to wander through to the next carriage in case of a spare seat - I've seen plenty intercity services where the first couple of coaches look rammed as the train pulls into the station but a coach toward the rear is emptier.

I think it's less common where there aren't internal doors between carriages.

Sometimes on doubled up Northern Pacers I've heard the guard announce that there are spare seats in the rear unit and then people from the front carriage of the front unit move to the rear carriage of the front unit and then say something along the lines of there's no seats - what's he going about.

That hasn't prevented TfL from applying railcard discounts to tube and bus* journeys for Oyster users or allowing people to buy discounted Travelcards.

* bus by way of the daily cap; tube journeys are discounted individually

TfGM/Metrolink could discount tickets if they wanted to but they don't have to, unlike franchised rail operators who have to offer the discount.

There would be a chance that if it was introduced that it would be later be removed if TfGM ran in to budget problems.

 

[spargazer]

so
no suitcases ............. though it goes to the airport and "all manchester stations"
no wheel chairs ..........DDA
no prams either ....... impossible to enforce
no mobility scooters ...DDA!
no dogs.....................I have seen a few on the tram
no seats ...................after the termini, few poles to hang on to
no eating ..................no toilets
no drinking ................diabetics beware
no pensioners ............local ones travel free and therefore do not count

these clockwork lemons are as much use as a chocolate firegaurd

rail travel and trams are exempt from the DDA as are airlines and buses

 

[martin2345uk]

I don't know where you get no prams and no wheelchairs from!

 

[martin2345uk]

Though you did forget "no bikes".