MKC-Croydon service

[pendolino]

I meant before Clapham coming from MK. Get across before entering the station heading south. Did the 319s in Connex days cross over at Balham?

No, southbound trains run into P17 from which you can only access the down Brighton slow, first chance to cross to the fast is Balham.

Edit: I suppose you could access the fast via Pouparts Jct, but not without a reversal!

 

[Bald Rick]

Where are you getting that info please?

There is a reference to WLL platform lengthening in the latest CP4 milestones, (June 2012), but only in the context of the 'CP5 development fund'. I though that meant they were funded for stuff like option selection and design, but not the actual building work.

Good if they really are starting soon though...

Yep CP4 delivery, albeit the due date is the very last day. Sizeable chunk of developer funding too, most of which is in the bag.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Wasnt it originally Rugby-Brighton (?), then Watford-Brighton then Milton Keynes-South Croydon. Extending it back to Brighton would be good, as well as a sunday service, as it would make people want to go from the south by changing at brighton, instead of changing in London

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As has been established multiple times, no (suitable) paths now exist south from Croydon through Gatwick to Brighton.

EDIT - They don't need to change at London as things stand though, they do so at Croydon or Clapham Junction. The former is certainly a lot more convenient than a cross-London connection.

 

[MK Tom]

As has been established multiple times, no (suitable) paths now exist south from Croydon through Gatwick to Brighton.

EDIT - They don't need to change at London as things stand though, they do so at Croydon or Clapham Junction. The former is certainly a lot more convenient than a cross-London connection.

You have to know about it though. As it is a few minutes slower people are still directed through central London and advised a much higher fare in the process.

Also early mornings and late nights it becomes much harder, with additional changes at Watford and even Willesden when it gets really late. Later and earlier services would make that route option much more attractive, as would a quicker journey time. Again my idea of omitting Tring and one or two others.

Seeing as the Overground Willesden services run into the other side of Clapham, maybe there's potential to go over that side and extend from there?
Here's an idea I know is mental and probably completely not feasible - routing the service from Clapham onto the SWML towards Southampton. Probably becoming a SWT service... would cause fare issues on the WCML though. I know it's probably a daft idea but it would open up some pretty neat connections. Basingstoke-Watford, MK-Woking etc etc.

 

[David10]

Here's an idea I know is mental and probably completely not feasible - routing the service from Clapham onto the SWML towards Southampton. Probably becoming a SWT service... would cause fare issues on the WCML though. I know it's probably a daft idea but it would open up some pretty neat connections. Basingstoke-Watford, MK-Woking etc etc.

Any service from the northern side of Clapham Junction would not be able to access the SWML, only the Windsor lines and even this would have to cross the 2 Waterloo bound lines. The Windsor lines are already operating at capacity during the peaks.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It's only possible to access the Windsor (to Barnes etc) lines from the route that LO services take into Clapham Junction - it is possible northbound, however only from the Up Fast, through p7, and it involves crossing every Windsor line, a total of 6 near capacity lines, and two used by LO already, making it an impossibility as far as pathing goes. Of course you could run via Staines and Chertsey and onto Woking that way...

 

[Minstral25]

You have to know about it though. As it is a few minutes slower people are still directed through central London and advised a much higher fare in the process.

I've tried changing at Clapham Jnct for the WLL/MKC and the problem with the Southern trains is there is only one an hour. So unless you are bang on for timing going via London gives many more connections as well so it is a lot quicker most of the time.

I have waited at CLJ for an hour as I just missed a train due to delays and had wrong tickets

 

[Ibex]

In terms of additional WFJ - CLJ services, from December there will be two extra morning peak services from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction, departing at 07:23 and 09:15, both formed of one 4 car unit.

Interestingly the inward working for the 07:23 actually originates at Coulsdon Town. I can't find it in the Journey Planner because NRE doesn't go up to December yet though it is in TRUST if anyone has access to that!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is this it? It looks like the inward working for the 0915, however that's the only train a day from CDN to WFJ whatsoever... http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W73494/2012/12/13

 

[Class377/5]

In terms of additional WFJ - CLJ services, from December there will be two extra morning peak services from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction, departing at 07:23 and 09:15, both formed of one 4 car unit.

Interestingly the inward working for the 07:23 actually originates at Coulsdon Town. I can't find it in the Journey Planner because NRE doesn't go up to December yet though it is in TRUST if anyone has access to that!

Is this it? It looks like the inward working for the 0915, however that's the only train a day from CDN to WFJ whatsoever... http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W73494/2012/12/13

It doesn't exist in TRUST.

However from the opentrainstimes there is part of the service that exists. 2M13 0730 East Croydon - Shepherd's Bush.

Theres no departures from Coulsdon Town between 07:20 and 07:31. Looks like the one noted is a ghost of what could have been planned. There's plently of them floating around but never made it through.

 

[gage75]

isn't there a way of going via the link going through putney/putney bridge from the windsor lines just after clapham junction??

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The route via what is now the LUL District line, yes. I highly doubt you'd get paths on that during the daytime though!

 

[class303]

Attaching/detaching a portion at Bletchley would be a waste of time (literally), but running alternately Brighton - MK and Brighton - Bedford would be a good idea. Can't see it happening though in view of capacity on the Brighton line though. Remember that when the WLL service first started, it ran Brighton - Rugby. Then they truncated to Watford Junc afaicr due to insufficient rolling stock before changing to today's route of Croydon - Milton Keynes dur to capacity issues at the southern end. As has already been said, there's no room to switch to the fast lines between Clapham Junction and East Croydon, and South ofv East Croydon there are the extra 4 tph from Thameslink.

remember the old service well. great for getting to gatwick airport from Northampton without changing with luggage. has any other services use the bay platforms at rugby regularly?

 

[OxtedL]

For anyone in any doubt as to the track layout near Clapham, see http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/m...x.php?gpslat=51.462174&gpslon=-0.16636&zoom=3 .

 

[34D]

I meant before Clapham coming from MK. Get across before entering the station heading south. Did the 319s in Connex days cross over at Balham?

It's only possible to access the Windsor (to Barnes etc) lines from the route that LO services take into Clapham Junction - it is possible northbound, however only from the Up Fast, through p7, and it involves crossing every Windsor line, a total of 6 near capacity lines, and two used by LO already, making it an impossibility as far as pathing goes. Of course you could run via Staines and Chertsey and onto Woking that way...

Indeed. Said ladder isn't even passenger rated.

I wonder if I could recommend to users such as MK Tom that they invest in one of the various rail atlases. The Joe Brown London one is good, as are the quail trackmaps.

I agree that it is a shame that these services can no longer run Brighton-Rugby, or even just MK-Gatwick, but there doesn't seem any obvious way to allow this. Coupling/detaching at a suitable point could happen in theory, but the timetable would need to be so robust that so much time would need to be allowed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Its all tied into the 377/5's. The plan is to go to 2tph 8 car all day long requiring much more rolling stock than is used at present. Currently 5 units are needed all day with pretty much the rest of the 377/2 fleet off on other duties on 3rd rail.

The planned 8 car 2tph will likely need around 23 units freeing up some dual voltage units to do some DC work. But platform extensions are needed first.

We know all about the 377/5s, I'd already mentioned it in my earlier post #6. The rest of your reply duplicates what I'd already written, so what was the point? My second reply was specifically about whether the 377/2s could be used if they were replaced by some of the 377/6s.

 

[Minstral25]

We know all about the 377/5s, I'd already mentioned it in my earlier post #6. The rest of your reply duplicates what I'd already written, so what was the point? My second reply was specifically about whether the 377/2s could be used if they were replaced by some of the 377/6s.

There are 15 377/2's.

Assume 1 maintenance spare so 14 for service every day.

4 are with FCC (3?) leaving 10 available, 5 are on MKC services already so another 5 currently being used on South London DC services.

If you double the MKC service to half hourly using 4 car trains that could take the 5 units on the DC services

So the question is valid - could they be dedicated to MKC services to make them half hourly when the 377/6's arrive? There is just enough of them.

 

[Southern]

It doesn't exist in TRUST.

However from the opentrainstimes there is part of the service that exists. 2M13 0730 East Croydon - Shepherd's Bush.

Theres no departures from Coulsdon Town between 07:20 and 07:31. Looks like the one noted is a ghost of what could have been planned. There's plently of them floating around but never made it through.

Full timetable is now showing for this service:

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W73494/2012/12/10

Looks to be taking over the path of the current 0731 Coulsdon Town - Victoria, now starting from East Croydon at 0747.

 

[Class377/5]

We know all about the 377/5s, I'd already mentioned it in my earlier post #6. The rest of your reply duplicates what I'd already written, so what was the point? My second reply was specifically about whether the 377/2s could be used if they were replaced by some of the 377/6s.

Actually it differs on some points hence my reply.

The idea of the 377/6 is to length more services not provide additional services. The 455's are to be concerated more on routes through Tulse Hill where as via Balham should be mainly 377's.

There are 15 377/2's.

Assume 1 maintenance spare so 14 for service every day.

4 are with FCC (3?) leaving 10 available, 5 are on MKC services already so another 5 currently being used on South London DC services.

If you double the MKC service to half hourly using 4 car trains that could take the 5 units on the DC services

So the question is valid - could they be dedicated to MKC services to make them half hourly when the 377/6's arrive? There is just enough of them.

3 are with FCC. There's generally one two or three 377/2 left spare (overall), not enought to generate more trains.

Full timetable is now showing for this service:

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W73494/2012/12/10

Looks to be taking over the path of the current 0731 Coulsdon Town - Victoria, now starting from East Croydon at 0747.

When's this from?

 

[David10]

When's this from?

10th December

 

[Minstral25]

3 are with FCC. There's generally one two or three 377/2 left spare (overall), not enought to generate more trains.

The idea of the 377/6 is to length more services not provide additional services. The 455's are to be concerated more on routes through Tulse Hill where as via Balham should be mainly 377's.

I agree the 377/6's is to make all South London Metro trains 10/12 coaches which was in the franchise commitment for 2013 and hence why the 377/6's were purchased.

At the time of purchase there was a lot of comments saying they are to make up for the non-return of the 377/5's. So could they have ordered enough to make the 377/2's available from 2013 to run half hourly Milton Keynes services?

As I said earlier there is just enough 377/2's

 

[mr_jrt]

I have no problem with interchanges as long as they are between frequent services.

What I'd like to see is the Southern service abolished, and replaced with more LM services into Euston (but with platforms and thus stops at Willesden Junction). Their paths on the WLL would then be available for additional LO services, and the slow paths between Clapham and Croydon are then available for another service. I'd suggest an extension of LO from Crystal Palace then up the WLL (probably subsuming the Southern services on the Outer SLL as the have the inner SLL). 4tph would be pushing it for viability though - I'd imagine it'd need to be at least 6, if not 8tph.

Yes it means two changes (Willesden and Clapham), but it removes the possibility of performance pollution and enables higher frequencies on all the routes. The interchanges at Willesden and Clapham would have to be top notch though.

 

[ushawk]

I have no problem with interchanges as long as they are between frequent services.

What I'd like to see is the Southern service abolished, and replaced with more LM services into Euston (but with platforms and thus stops at Willesden Junction). Their paths on the WLL would then be available for additional LO services, and the slow paths between Clapham and Croydon are then available for another service. I'd suggest an extension of LO from Crystal Palace then up the WLL (probably subsuming the Southern services on the Outer SLL as the have the inner SLL). 4tph would be pushing it for viability though - I'd imagine it'd need to be at least 6, if not 8tph.

Yes it means two changes (Willesden and Clapham), but it removes the possibility of performance pollution and enables higher frequencies on all the routes. The interchanges at Willesden and Clapham would have to be top notch though.

Sorry, you do know that Willesden has NO station on the WCML dont you ? It wont ever have one either. Not sure there are enough paths into Euston anyway.

The Southern paths are 1tph - hardly worth extending 1 LOROL an hour from the ELL in its place - you could probably do that without removing an incredibly useful and well-used service (trains more often than not on the line are very busy).

 

[cle]

What I might add is perhaps looking at the WLL service only going as far as Watford, but then 2tph. Or St Albans Abbey, absorbing that service too - after all it's the right side of WFJ sort of. Platform 10 is a bay - could work allow it to join ther Abbey line?

Perhaps then if it followed a faster service on departure from Watford (until Wembley, when it goes onto stupid tracks) - then pathing benefits could occur.

But it is very useful to Watford, and well-used. Hence the RUS-es pushing for 2tph, and they are rarely frivolous!

 

[mr_jrt]

Sorry, you do know that Willesden has NO station on the WCML dont you ?

Sorry, you do know that there used to be platforms there and the space is still available for them to be reinstated, (which precisely why I said platforms and not just stops)?

It wont ever have one either. Not sure there are enough paths into Euston anyway.

Ooh, why you're at it, what this weeks lottery numbers? The WCML slow lines are essentially treated as two track railway between Camden & Ledburn Junctions, so if there are paths between Ledburn and Willesden Junction, then there are surely paths into Euston.

The Southern paths are 1tph - hardly worth extending 1 LOROL an hour from the ELL in its place - you could probably do that without removing an incredibly useful and well-used service (trains more often than not on the line are very busy).

I doubt it - the WLL is full. I'm wondering where they're going to find the extra path for the 2nd Southern service TBH. It's a popular service, yes, so I'm proposing the only realistic way of increasing capacity further which is to decouple it into parts that can then run at enhanced frequencies. 12 cars from MK to Willesden at whatever frequency it current is (8tph?), then 6tph from Willesden to Clapham and finally whatever tph Clapham to East Croydon can manage would surely be better than 2tph direct 8-car services, and minimal delay propagation to boot.

What I might add is perhaps looking at the WLL service only going as far as Watford, but then 2tph. Or St Albans Abbey, absorbing that service too - after all it's the right side of WFJ sort of. Platform 10 is a bay - could work allow it to join ther Abbey line?

Platform 10 was one of the original St. Albans platforms - the old trackless 11 next to it was it's compatriot (for through services as northbound/southbound) and both linked to the original alignment around the edge of what was the loco depot (and is now the car park). They bumped the St. Albans service over to a "new" cheapo platform so they could build the car park over the old loco depot.

Perhaps then if it followed a faster service on departure from Watford (until Wembley, when it goes onto stupid tracks) - then pathing benefits could occur.

Possibly. I still think it's a waste of capacity between Watford and Wembley though when far more want to go to Euston, and you can then operate 12 car trains on that path as well. I the BML platforms on the fast lines are good for 12 car trains as well, it's just the WLL platforms that limit the length. The journey would still be possible, minimally longer if timetabled correctly (if at all), and dare I say more robust as well. Stick an extra track or two to segregate it between Watford and Wembley though and you'd have my support

But it is very useful to Watford, and well-used. Hence the RUS-es pushing for 2tph, and they are rarely frivolous!

I agree - it is useful. I come from (and my family still lives in) Watford and live in Brighton! I honestly think though that the capacity benefits that would arise from splitting the service would make it worthwhile as it wouldn't be noticeably more inconvenient enough to drive away custom.

 

[cle]

To be honest, the 12 car thing is a slight red herring. Many peak services on LM are 8 car, and so if Southern were running 8 cars (with WLL platforms to match) then I think capacity-wise it'd be ok. Obviously there is demand, and not everyone wants to go to Euston.

Orbital rail has been hugely underestimated - if it's 2tph, watch passenger numbers shoot up. Time to resolve Wembley Central's nonsense locked-up situation once and for all if 4tph are stopping there - either remodel the entrance or eliminate stops altogether.

I still quite like my idea of taking over the St Albans Abbey line and upgrading to take 2tph each way. 8 cars would be a problem here of course.

 

[Bald Rick]

I still quite like my idea of taking over the St Albans Abbey line and upgrading to take 2tph each way. 8 cars would be a problem here of course.

As would capacity on the Abbey branch. And getting to it from the main line. Finally you might find a tram in the way.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

And getting to it from the main line.

Not an issue surely as the MKC service is already on the Slows at Watford: it's just a case of connecting to the branch isn't it? Not that difficult IIRC.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As would capacity on the Abbey branch. And getting to it from the main line. Finally you might find a tram in the way.

As Bald Rick says it is planned for a tram ..best solution for a local feeder link. The end to end market from St Albans to south of the river is very well catered for by FCC - plus the stations on the branch have virtually zero parking spaces (which explains why rail heading occurs from places like Aldenham / Park Street etc to Radlett for direct services.

A minor issue is that the connections to the branch at Watford presently need a competent person to work the ground frame and hand signal through passenger workings. There are no plans to change this in forthcoming resignalling.

(through trains to Clacton and Euston ran on 2 occassions in the 90's - under very controlled circumstances ..!)