BBC4 Thurs 13th The Age of the Train

[jopsuk]

"Sectorisation", that created NSE*, InterCity**, Regional Railways and Freight, was a good example of the hands off/do something approach of Thatcher to the railways- she wanted them to stand up as a business, and secorisation finally helped them do that.

And sorry to upset any drivers on here, but the flexible working agreement was something that needed to happen.

*there was something of a fore runner here- the "jaffa cake" livery
**already sort of existed, but took off as an entity properly

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Two slight faux pas in an otherwise excellent programme:
- Peter Snow's model HST derailment inevitably reminded us of the real thing
- pictures of football hooligans in the context of train wrecking

That the HST saved Britain's main-line railways from oblivion is probably true.
Early on I was more of an APT supporter, but it is clear that was too big a leap at the time.
How on earth did BR plan to run a 155mph train on the 1980s WCML?
They can't do it even today.

 

[OuterDistant]

Anyone got Peter Snow's number? I've got another Hornby 253028 set (or 43125/43126) he can have - at the right price!

 

[tirphil]

Excellent programme, even for us "laypersons" (i.e. passengers!). I was drooling over those breakfasts - does any operator still do cooked-to-order catering nowadays? Even if they do on sleepers, I bet they don't on commuter services.

Arriva Trains Wales Southbound Gerald service does breakfast and the Norhbound does evening meals.

 

[yorksrob]

- pictures of football hooligans in the context of train wrecking

Seems relevant to me if such concerns had an effect on the design process.

Incidentally, had APT succeeded, I wonder whether the ECML north of Newcastle would have been electrified by now. I get the impression that BR had a list of priorities that they could get on with if something further up didn't work out.

 

[brianthegiant]

Overall a very good programme.

Sadly I think the APT was the usual story with British ground-breaking technology. A good idea that was not financed adequately so that the original idea was left for some else to pick up the pieces and get to work. We can thank the APT project for Pendolinos and other similar tilting trains in the World. Its just a pity that it was the Italians who perfected the concept and made it work.

Sadly we do this all to often - develop a concept, maybe even initially commercialise it, but then get cold feet with the initial teething problems/lack of initial demand, ditch the concept & buy it back from abroad 10 years later.

The eventual transfer of intellectual property of Wind Energy Group (Taylor Woodrow project) to Vestas, would be a good example (All large wind turbines in the UK are made by foreign firms). I'm sure are plenty of others.

 

[neilm]

How on earth did BR plan to run a 155mph train on the 1980s WCML?
They can't do it even today.

I wondered that as well, they wanted to do it with conventional signalling, on the ECML they wanted to do 140mph and was refused.

 

[John Webb]

I would have liked to seen a bit more on the technical side regarding its workings, perhaps with brief mentions of other DEMUs, such as the Hastings units and the Blue Pullman, which were the IC125's precursors.
But the political aspect of things was something of an eye-opener.

 

[RPM]

I wondered that as well, they wanted to do it with conventional signalling, on the ECML they wanted to do 140mph and was refused.

IIRC APT(P) had some sort of in-cab signalling that overlayed the conventional signalling and gave the driver some advanced warning of signals. It also had a hydrokinetic brake which could apparently stop the train within the required braking distance. Not sure how this sharp braking affected passenger comfort though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One thing that they touched on in the programme but failed to fully explain was the passenger sickness problem which was caused by the tilt being too perfect. Whilst tilting around curves passengers found what their eyes could see didn't match with what their bodies coud feel and this led to the queasiness. What they didn't say in the programme was that this was overcome by slightly reducing the degree of tilt so people could still feel some slight sensation of cornering.

 

[trainophile]

Arriva Trains Wales Southbound Gerald service does breakfast and the Norhbound does evening meals.

If only it stopped at Hereford...

 

[sprinterguy]

I wondered that as well, they wanted to do it with conventional signalling, on the ECML they wanted to do 140mph and was refused.

The APT did not solely use lineside signalling. The C-APT (“Control-APT”) information system utilised transponders located in the four foot at 1km intervals along the length of the WCML to relay a permissible maximum speed to a display unit within the drivers cab, based on the speed limit for that section of line. A very basic form of in cab signalling.

Additionally, British Rail very quickly developed cold feet over the 155mph capability of the trains when they realised that 155mph running would shave very little time off running at 140mph, or even 125mph. I think that 155mph running only reduced the proposed Euston – Glasgow journey time by 4 minutes over 140mph operation. Production APTs would have entered service at 125mph, with their tilting ability allowing the London to Glasgow journey time to be reduced to 4 hours 15 minutes. The 155mph capability of the APT-P was more useful in allowing the concept of the Advanced Passenger Train to be tested to it’s very limits.

 

[Tiny Tim]

I remember with great affection my first ride on an HST. I'd waited at Paddington for an extra hour (not all services then were HSTs) to catch the 125 to Chippenham. It was magic, and every time I get aboard an HST I remember what a treat it was the first time.

 

[Welshman]

Likewise my first ride on an HST!
I'd boarded at Bradford with a MetroDayRover ticket for the journey to Wakefield, and was sorely tempted to stay on to King's Cross, but couldn't afford it at the time!

 

[Mojo]

The most eyewatering comment for me was quite late in the programme when a guy in a suit, forgive me I don't know his name, said something like "Margaret Thatcher did wonders for the railways in the UK"
I'm still climbing back on to the couch.

I suspect its more a case of what she didn't do, ie BR were left to get on with things without too much political interferance. That resulted in them being able to get on with the things above.

That was Roger Ford, who's knowledge of the railway cannot be overestimated. I think the point he was making was how ironic it is that the railway flourished so much during the peroid of office of a PM who openly loathed it.

I think it was a combination of all of those, but not to ignore the huge improvements which took place on the network at the time that would have had a direct impact on customers. Swathes of re-openings of lines and stations (particularly in the regions), Thameslink, ECML electrification and electrification of other routes, near wholesale replacement of the ageing Provincial fleet and so on.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The APT did not solely use lineside signalling. The C-APT (“Control-APT”) information system utilised transponders located in the four foot at 1km intervals along the length of the WCML to relay a permissible maximum speed to a display unit within the drivers cab, based on the speed limit for that section of line. A very basic form of in cab signalling.

This is of course what today's TASS does over 110mph, and is probably the basis for Virgin plans to run Pendolinos at 135mph.
I'd like to know the practical difference betweeen this and the over-125mph running expected on the GW route under ETCS after 2018 (with the colour lights still working).

 

[alastair]

The most eyewatering comment for me was quite late in the programme when a guy in a suit, forgive me I don't know his name, said something like "Margaret Thatcher did wonders for the railways in the UK"
I'm still climbing back on to the couch.

and your problem with that statement is what?

Although she personally apparently disliked rail travel,surely her time was a fairly good time for rail. She never pushed for privatisation,always regarding it as a bridge too far,that was John Major we have to thank for that.

 

[jon0844]

I think Old Timer has written somewhere on this forum in great detail that shows the railway has always done better under a Tory Government, even if the unions would clearly prefer Labour in control.

I think even now, we can see that under the coalition, rail has and will benefit greatly in the coming years.

The programme did quite clearly show just how bad BR had become as a nationalised company, with poor management. Who knows if it could have continued to grow and improve had John Major not instigated privatisation.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think Old Timer has written somewhere on this forum in great detail that shows the railway has always done better under a Tory Government, even if the unions would clearly prefer Labour in control.

I think even now, we can see that under the coalition, rail has and will benefit greatly in the coming years.

The programme did quite clearly show just how bad BR had become as a nationalised company, with poor management. Who knows if it could have continued to grow and improve had John Major not instigated privatisation.

BR in the good days of the 1980's was cutting costs , improving services and being much more businesslike (and customer facing) - as a customer / contracts manager they were excellent times - hard work with a quick way to implement short term changes.

Had BR weathered the early 1990's recession and not been messed around with the 1994 Act , it would have been a really sharp , world class operation.

 

[yorksrob]

BR in the good days of the 1980's was cutting costs , improving services and being much more businesslike (and customer facing) - as a customer / contracts manager they were excellent times - hard work with a quick way to implement short term changes.

Had BR weathered the early 1990's recession and not been messed around with the 1994 Act , it would have been a really sharp , world class operation.

This is certainly the impression I got from Network South East as a passenger in early 90's. Stations were tidy, new trains were coming in and the old ones that remained were refurbed. The only "crisis" seemed to be manufactured by those with a political axe to grind.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

This is certainly the impression I got from Network South East as a passenger in early 90's. Stations were tidy, new trains were coming in and the old ones that remained were refurbed. The only "crisis" seemed to be manufactured by those with a political axe to grind.

Network South East came within a smidgeon of paying its way (the fall in property income did for that hope) - the transformation was amazing in the 5 years that Chris Green had at the helm - Route Managers , Resource Managers , great marketing and local intiatives galore. The Networker Programme did not quite get there , thanks to the early 1990's recession - but the transformation all round (particularly for local staff , was outstanding)

Simple things like heavy cleaning gangs for groups of stations , making sure trains were washed every 24 /48 hours - this relentless attention to operating and customer care. Much though I loved the old 4EPB railway - this was a real highlight - even the maligned North London Line won the "Mitchell Cup" for best performing urban route , whereas in 1970 if you were sent to Willesden to work as a Station Manager , you would have committed suicide !!

Thameslink - probably the best achievement for around £4m + trains !

 

[yorksrob]

Simple things like heavy cleaning gangs for groups of stations , making sure trains were washed every 24 /48 hours - this relentless attention to operating and customer care. Much though I loved the old 4EPB railway - this was a real highlight - even the maligned North London Line won the "Mitchell Cup" for best performing urban route , whereas in 1970 if you were sent to Willesden to work as a Station Manager , you would have committed suicide !!

Thameslink - probably the best achievement for around £4m + trains !

It definately showed.

Even as an EPB admirer, there's no doubt the Networkers represented a big move forward (even though the EPB's were generally kept clean and tidy from my experience )

 

[6Gman]

The programme did quite clearly show just how bad BR had become as a nationalised company, with poor management. Who knows if it could have continued to grow and improve had John Major not instigated privatisation.

Assertion is not evidence!

Worth pointing out that bad old BR managed to electrify to Glasgow, then to Edinburgh - introduced widespread air-conditioning in MkIIs and then MkIIIs - created the HST etc etc

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Watching the Doc it amazes me how Militant the unions were, Now i'm a proud member of the RMT but the Militancy shown by the unions then makes Bob Crow look a lightweight!

 

[yorksrob]

The programme did quite clearly show just how bad BR had become as a nationalised company, with poor management. Who knows if it could have continued to grow and improve had John Major not instigated privatisation.

I'm presuming sarcasm.

 

[ainsworth74]

Watching the Doc it amazes me how Militant the unions were, Now i'm a proud member of the RMT but the Militancy shown by the unions then makes Bob Crow look a lightweight!

Indeed, we think of the RMT as being quite a militant Union now, but you guys are lightweights compared to some of the stuff seen there

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Indeed, we think of the RMT as being quite a militant Union now, but you guys are lightweights compared to some of the stuff seen there

methinks we learned to negotiate lol (that and the fact that there are so many anti union laws lol)

That Lews fella is still very bitter

 

[Wath Yard]

BR in the good days of the 1980's was cutting costs , improving services and being much more businesslike (and customer facing) - as a customer / contracts manager they were excellent times - hard work with a quick way to implement short term changes.

Presumably a lot of that was as a direct consequence of Thatcher being in power, considering the thing she really detested was inefficient state controlled industries.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Presumably a lot of that was as a direct consequence of Thatcher being in power, considering the thing she really detested was inefficient state controlled industries.

I just thought she detested anyone who wasn't middle class or above (and trains)

 

[yorksrob]

Presumably a lot of that was as a direct consequence of Thatcher being in power, considering the thing she really detested was inefficient state controlled industries.

Give Mrs T her due, yes, she let BR get on with it. And she didn't force a botched privatisation (someone may have just sneaked it into the manifesto before she was deposed, but to be fair, it was on Major's watch so I hold him entirely responsible).

 

[Wath Yard]

I just thought she detested anyone who wasn't middle class or above (and trains)

A loathing of trains? You don't remember her comments about buses then?