First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[transmanche]

We've had the WCML upgrade, costing £9bn (not funded by Virgin, rather the British taxpayer), which was taking place during 2003/04 but finished Dec 2008. And then we had the VHF timetable, which was enabled by the upgrade. ECML had what?

And I suspect that the majority of London-Scotland traffic was ECML in 2003/2004, but now more of it is WCML. Plus, in 2003/2004, the Birmingham-Edinburgh/Glasgow service was part of VXC and is now part of VWC.

 

[HH]

And I suspect that the majority of London-Scotland traffic was ECML in 2003/2004, but now more of it is WCML. Plus, in 2003/2004, the Birmingham-Edinburgh/Glasgow service was part of VXC and is now part of VWC.

Yes; so why don't we compare apples with fish?

 

[transmanche]

Yes; so why don't we compare apples with fish?

I just posted the figures as I didn't believe the assertion that passenger numbers "halved on the East Coast from 20m to 10m".

And whilst I can't find comparison figures from 1996/1997, I think I've shown they're a lot higher than 10m now.

 

[WatcherZero]

Looking at the figures posted above, it appears that passenger numbers on the ECML have grown, albeit not as quickly as the WCML.

Also, would passenger numbers for Virgin be increased after they took over the Birmingham - Scotland services from XC? They

Indeed but remember GNER also added extra services hiring five Eurostars and Nat Ex doubling the number of 43's as well as the refurbing of the passenger carriages and there were the five 180 acquired for extra services too (rhough of course technical issues with power hungry Eurostars and financial troubles of the companies played a part in hampering plans).

 

[spyontheinside]

You would be suprised at how much wrong information there is circulating. I was talking to a Northern Guard on my way to work today, he was under the impression VT owned the trains, because he said "I wonder where FG will get the funds for new trains because VT own em dont they" - Just unbelievable really!

Internal message from T.Collins:

When the Department for Transport (DfT) announced on 15 August that it intended to award the new InterCity West Coast Franchise to FirstGroup, no one could have predicted the subsequent pattern of events. The support from the public for Virgin Trains has been unbelievable and Ross McKillop's e-petition gave customers and staff a credible outlet to vent their disappointment and anger. It also propelled things into the political environment as more and more MPs showed their support for us in the media, on twitter and through formal debates in the House of Commons.

The easy option for us would have been to accept our defeat and, had we been confident that the process for selecting the winning bid had been appropriately followed, we would have - albeit with huge regret. However, we don't believe the process has been properly applied and, as none of our questions to DfT on this matter has been answered, Virgin Trains has applied for a judicial review into the DfT's process for selecting the winner.

The DfT is expected to submit its evidence this week and following this a judge in the High Court will rule whether or not there are adequate grounds for a review. If the case proceeds to full judicial review, it is likely to require another few months of hearings, so it will be difficult for FirstGroup to take over in December. Even if we aren't granted a judicial review it will be difficult for FirstGroup to mobilise for an early December transfer. Virgin Trains has offered to continue to run services after 8 December on a not-for-profit basis, but the Government suggests Directly Operated Railways (DOR) would become the option for running the franchise until FirstGroup takes over. DOR is a company created by the Government to oversee the management of rail franchises under certain circumstances until they are re-let to a new private operator.

In the meantime, representatives from Virgin Trains have met with FirstGroup to begin the formal process of mobilisation. (Mobilisation involves ensuring a smooth handover of the franchise.) Meetings will continue and will focus on specific topics such as safety, IT and commercial. We will share information with employees.

I know this uncertainty is difficult for people and many of your questions about the future have not been answered. We all want clarity and please be assured that we will try to share as much detail as possible with you in the weeks and months to follow. I also recognise that the turbulent situation could distract from the great work you have done - and continue to do. Please don't let it. Virgin Trains remains the highest scoring long-distance operator ever in National Passenger Survey (NPS) history and we have customer growth figures that far outstrip any other operator. This is because of you and your unique relationship with our customers. The massive support for Ross McKillop's e-epition (nearly 174,000 signatures) is testimony to this. And on the same day as MPs at Westminster were debating the Government's franchise decision, Business Traveller readers voted Virgin Trains the Best UK Domestic Rail Operator for the sixth year running.

In the next few months NPS interviewers will again be surveying our customers about the quality of their experience with us. This is a fantastic opportunity to show the public, once again, what we can do.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FG have also made public an FAQ ref the Tupe process etc. Not sure if this has previously been posted, this topic seems to go way off topic quite a lot!

http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/our_company/west_coast_FAQ.php

This one being the most interesting:

What about employees on fixed-term/temporary contracts?

We're working with Virgin Trains to identify which employees on fixed-term or temporary contracts ending on 8 December 2012 will transfer to the new company. Please bear with us.

 

[Manchester77]

^^^^
Noticed that on the FAQ it says the new website should launch in a few weeks
It also seems FG are handling the whole situation very maturely and VT are acting like some two year old who has just had their toy taken off them

 

[tbtc]

Indeed but remember GNER also added extra services hiring five Eurostars and Nat Ex doubling the number of 43's as well as the refurbing of the passenger carriages and there were the five 180 acquired for extra services too (rhough of course technical issues with power hungry Eurostars and financial troubles of the companies played a part in hampering plans).

None of this backs up your assertion that ECML numbers *halved* since privatisation though.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

^^^^
Noticed that on the FAQ it says the new website should launch in a few weeks
It also seems FG are handling the whole situation very maturely and VT are acting like some two year old who has just had their toy taken off them

To be fair this is a process FirstGroup have been through countless times whereas its a relativley new experience for virgin

 

[Stats]

According to evidence GNER gave to the Transport Select Committee, they carried 16.8 million passenger journeys in 2004 which was a 34% growth from when they first started running services. In separate, earlier, evidence they gave to the Transport Select Committee in the last full year prior to Hatfield they carried 15.9 million passengers and in the year ended 5 January 2002 they carried 14.5 million passengers.

OPRAF statistics on this BBC archive page shows GNER carried 11.9 million journeys in 1996/7.

Conclusion: Passenger numbers on the ECML have not halved since privatisation.

OPRAF statistics on the same BBC website show that 13.2 million passenger journeys were carried on the WCML in 1996/7

 

[Eagle]

whereas its a relativley new experience for virgin

Unless you count losing franchise bids for the National Lottery, or ITV regions (both of which also sent Branson into whiny kid mode, as I call). :P

 

[AndrewP]

^^^^
Noticed that on the FAQ it says the new website should launch in a few weeks
It also seems FG are handling the whole situation very maturely and VT are acting like some two year old who has just had their toy taken off them

What is probably happening is that Virgin's PR team and public face is doing one thing whereas behind the scenes due process is taking place regarding TUPE and operational matters (I have seen this many times).

In most cases the same people will be doing the same job but.

For any agency staff you are covered by TUPE and will eligable for transfer to First group in the same way as if you had worked for virgin (subject to normal TUPE qualifications).

TUPE is not a nice process to go through - I have managed it and caused it but not actually been through it - but whatever the rumour mill may be saying, Terms and Conditions are protected.

Thought I'd try and give some comfort to those who are understandably very worried based on my experience.

If I could give any advice it would be ask questions about anything that worries you no matter how silly it may seem as most new companies want to make a good impression as quick as they can and know they need the staff on side so will only be too happy to answer.

 

[MKB]

I wonder if First will have more success than Virgin in managing the on-board crew.

Most are great, but there's a minority who just can't be bothered. On those VT services that stop at a Trent Valley station, there's frequently no second pass of the trolley on the second half of the journey, especially at weekends, despite assurances from VT that this is meant to happen.

On the 10:36 Nuneaton to Liverpool this morning, the very friendly woman in the shop -- a very long walk on an 11-car pendolino -- insisted someone would be through, but to go and knock on the door of the kitchen in coach K if I wanted something sooner. The guy there made clear he wasn't coming through again, but was happy to give me two teas and snack boxes. He didn't have any bags, so it was an interesting balancing act getting back to my seat.

It's all too frequent with Virgin, that, if you join mid-way and don't go and ask, you don't get served. Complaining achieves nothing. I hope First can sort this out.

 

[spyontheinside]

If you make a complaint via the VT site it will eventually make its way to the resourcing department and they will identify which individual it is, and believe me, something WILL be done.

 

[driver_m]

I wonder if First will have more success than Virgin in managing the on-board crew.

Most are great, but there's a minority who just can't be bothered. On those VT services that stop at a Trent Valley station, there's frequently no second pass of the trolley on the second half of the journey, especially at weekends, despite assurances from VT that this is meant to happen.

On the 10:36 Nuneaton to Liverpool this morning, the very friendly woman in the shop -- a very long walk on an 11-car pendolino -- insisted someone would be through, but to go and knock on the door of the kitchen in coach K if I wanted something sooner. The guy there made clear he wasn't coming through again, but was happy to give me two teas and snack boxes. He didn't have any bags, so it was an interesting balancing act getting back to my seat.

It's all too frequent with Virgin, that, if you join mid-way and don't go and ask, you don't get served. Complaining achieves nothing. I hope First can sort this out.

If you have a complaint about a particular member of staff, do it through Virgin's complaints procedures, not by doing a 'name and shame' on a public forum. As already said, the management do pull the staff up vigorously on things like this. And believe me, they do check.

 

[Realfish]

^^^^
Noticed that on the FAQ it says the new website should launch in a few weeks
It also seems FG are handling the whole situation very maturely and VT are acting like some two year old who has just had their toy taken off them

If DfT have screwed up, VT have an absolute right to cry foul. We will soon see if there is a case to answer, if so, it will go for a full JR, if not VT will have to packs their bags, shut up and walk - something that they say they will do.

Looking back on the Westminster Hall debate, I had to shake my head when one of the MPs (who had earlier said that he didn't mind who got the franchise as long as it was right for the taxpayer and the passenger) said he wished that VT would withdraw their action - echoing his Tory colleague the member for Shrewsbury who from his public utterences seems to have an axe to grind! VT shouldn't have to withdraw if they have suffered a detriment because of maladministration - it's the law!

It was a pity that MPs largely divided along party lines with the Tories effectively defending the DfT (no doubt something that the Labour members would have done if they were in Government). It says something about our democracy when the Sir Humphreys' make the decisions and Government's fall in line. At the very least the new SoS should have been asking the full briefing -the one he implied he didn't need to do. If it turns out to be the case that the DfT have got this wrong, it will cost a lot of money and someone will need to be held accountable, but I won't hold my breath. An 'accountable' Civil Service is something of an oxymoron.

 

[Oswyntail]

...It was a pity that MPs largely divided along party lines with the Tories effectively defending the DfT (no doubt something that the Labour members would have done if they were in Government).

MPs find it difficult to think, generally, without their party line:roll:

...It says something about our democracy when the Sir Humphreys' make the decisions and Government's fall in line.

That is exactly how it should work, though. The Government sets the overall policy, and the Civil Service first works out the detail, checking all the time that that is what Ministers intended, then implements it. Or would you expect a Minister to be the one who took every decision - from who gets the Franchise down to whether a service should be in the timetable?

....... An 'accountable' Civil Service is something of an oxymoron.

Civil Servants are as "accountable" as anyone in employment - if they get things wrong, they can be sacked. And, unlike someone working for a private company, most of their work can be scrutinised by the public under FOI. Accountability does not necessarily mean being subjected to some sort of voting process - heavens, in most seats in Parliament the voting process doesn't hold MPs accountable.

 

[jimm]

echoing his Tory colleague the member for Shrewsbury who from his public utterences seems to have an axe to grind!.

I should think Mr Kawczynski does - along with most of the population of Shropshire, who well remember Virgin's much-heralded reinstatement of through trains between London, Telford and Shrewsbury when they replaced BR on the West Coast in 1997, before dropping them again in 2000.

After that they showed no interest in such services until Wrexham & Shropshire came on the scene. Although Virgin's proposal for some convoluted route via Nuneaton was soon abandoned, they didn't bother to revive the idea when W&S stopped running. Wonder why.

And now here we are, new franchise in the offing, and what does Virgin come up with but offering through trains to Shrewsbury again...

After their experiences of Virgin Trains, the people of Shropshire are never going to be cheerleaders for Sir Richard Branson. Many of them will be glad to see the back of Virgin, so long as First don't ditch Shrewsbury services a few years down the line.

 

[khib70]

Many of them will be glad to see the back of Virgin, so long as First don't ditch Shrewsbury services a few years down the line.

Like they're ditching bus services all over the country? In my area, they've cut off whole communities and put dozens on the dole by summarily axeing the majority of their local services because they couldn't screw any more subsidy out of the local authorities.

And those on the remaining routes are likely to be fleeced for ludicrous fares to use ever-declining services as are First Bus passengers all over the country.

Of course, they could also ditch the whole franchise as soon as it starts costing them anything. They do have form for that.

I know this is blasphemy on what appears to be a First Fans Forum, but, free speech and all that.

 

[driver_m]

Like they're ditching bus services all over the country? In my area, they've cut off whole communities and put dozens on the dole by summarily axeing the majority of their local services because they couldn't screw any more subsidy out of the local authorities.

And those on the remaining routes are likely to be fleeced for ludicrous fares to use ever-declining services as are First Bus passengers all over the country.

Of course, they could also ditch the whole franchise as soon as it starts costing them anything. They do have form for that.

I know this is blasphemy on what appears to be a First Fans Forum, but, free speech and all that.

I hope you've got a tin hat for the flak you are going to get! Not allowed to question first on here. (Cue another 3 pages of 'toys being thrown out of pram' 'FGW are better than anything that's existed....ever' etc etc)

 

[jon0844]

And those on the remaining routes are likely to be fleeced for ludicrous fares to use ever-declining services as are First Bus passengers all over the country.

Of course, they could also ditch the whole franchise as soon as it starts costing them anything. They do have form for that.

I know this is blasphemy on what appears to be a First Fans Forum, but, free speech and all that.

It's not just First though, so it's not a pro or anti-First comment. Every council has had to cut back on subsidies for buses, and many routes around me (Hertfordshire) have been cut or, wherever possible, merged into a longer route that might be more inconvenient - but at least means people still have a bus.

We can save the argument about the politics, as to whether the state of the country in 2010 forced the cuts and so on - but those cuts are very, very real nonetheless.

So, I doubt First, Arriva, Stagecoach, Uno or any other operator has been simply squeezing more and more subsidy (especially in the cases where it's the council that comes up with the routes and how much it will pay someone to run them).

More likely, the routes that were subsidised have gone and First couldn't make a commercial success without it. Just as you have trains carrying thin air during parts of the day, so to with the buses.

One way to keep them running would be to increase fares. Is that fair? Well, again, it comes down to whether you want a bus operating or not.

It's not ideal, and one would hope that if/when the economy recovers we'll see the money being spent on buses increase.. and then I guess the bus operators will be accused of cashing in.

At the end of the day, people want buses but many don't pay to use them (as in their entitled to free travel) or want to pay higher fares - and how exactly does a bus operator cope with that?

What if Virgin ran buses? How do you think they might do things differently?

I'm sorry but with your "those on the remaining routes are likely to be fleeced for ludicrous fares to use ever-declining services as are First Bus passengers all over the country." comment, it's quite clear you're picking on First only, when it's obvious that 1) it isn't just First 2) I doubt people all over the country are boycotting First buses, as to most people it's just a bus.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I hope you've got a tin hat for the flak you are going to get! Not allowed to question first on here. (Cue another 3 pages of 'toys being thrown out of pram' 'FGW are better than anything that's existed....ever' etc etc)

Your allowed to question First, what we have argued against is unjustified criticism and the constant claims that First will ruin the WCML without any justified evidence.

Like they're ditching bus services all over the country? In my area, they've cut off whole communities and put dozens on the dole by summarily axeing the majority of their local services because they couldn't screw any more subsidy out of the local authorities.

And those on the remaining routes are likely to be fleeced for ludicrous fares to use ever-declining services as are First Bus passengers all over the country.

Of course, they could also ditch the whole franchise as soon as it starts costing them anything. They do have form for that.

I know this is blasphemy on what appears to be a First Fans Forum, but, free speech and all that.

First buses are fairly bad, in both my home and university cities (sheffield and leeds) but if the council can't subsidise anymore then they can't you can't expect a private firm to take a loss...
Stagecoach have also cut two buses in my area in sheffield so its not just First. I dont see anyone saying that EMT or SWT are bad TOCS because stagecoach cut my local buses in north sheffield?

At the end of the day i am not going to stop using virgin media or virgin atlantic just because i dislike virgin trains. The same should go for seperate bus and train companies. (an example, i dont like virgin media for different reasons, i dont fly and i do like Virgin trains ignoring all this mess )

 

[jon0844]

I hope you've got a tin hat for the flak you are going to get! Not allowed to question first on here. (Cue another 3 pages of 'toys being thrown out of pram' 'FGW are better than anything that's existed....ever' etc etc)

I don't recall First ever having received as much support as it has since this incident, so it does show that Virgin getting so upset has actually made a lot of people sympathise and support First.

What I don't think many people realise is that it isn't about hating Virgin or loving First (clue; look around the forum to see many, many threads that aren't so positive about First Group operations or staff - or those that praise Virgin) but merely people having the view that Virgin lost fair and square. Its bid wasn't good enough.

If the situation was reversed, as indeed it might be if First loses the WCML next time around, then it would be the same thing.

First has lost out before, but didn't resort to such tactics. It accepted defeat and came back stronger, to get to where it is today - a leading train operating company.

Virgin could (and should) have done the same, given the prestigious ECML route will be up for grabs soon. Virgin could probably do great things with it. Now the stupid stubbornness of Virgin suggests they won't even bid! That's just childish, thus supporting the 'toys out of the pram' argument.

And, as I said above, I wonder how Virgin would run a bus company given it would have all the same challenges; reduced subsidies, more people with free bus passes etc.

 

[transmanche]

wonder how Virgin would run a bus company given it would have all the same challenges; reduced subsidies, more people with free bus passes etc.

Of course the Virgin brand wouldn't want to be associated with local bus (or local train) services. But Stagecoach is half of Virgin Trains - so how well have they done?

My experience of using First is mainly on TPE and I haven't had any problems there (other than the paucity of advance fares), so I'm sure they'll do a decent job. However, I'm mindful of the high level of complaints I've seen from FGW and FCC customers in recent years.

However my main concern is the sustainability of the bid. First do not seem to be in great financial shape. Just how robust is their bid? And has the DfT set up another GNER or NXEC scenario?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Of course, they could also ditch the whole franchise as soon as it starts costing them anything. They do have form for that.

Not this again!!!

 

[jon0844]

However, I'm mindful of the high level of complaints I've seen from FGW and FCC customers in recent years.

FGW has surely reduced the complaints in recent years, while FCC is bound to get complaints given the building site it has to run trains through on the Thameslink route (and the lack of trains it can run on it). Oh and the fact that commuters will complain about anything, and that loads of 'complaints' are about revenue issues - where the person complaining is likely wrong.

If Virgin ran commuter services, they'd have to spend a lot more money on marketing to convince people how good the company is!

What gets me is that before the franchising situation, there were loads of people moaning about Virgin - mostly due to the high fares. Then, suddenly, Virgin became the number one operator in the universe.

 

[snail]

In my area, they've cut off whole communities and put dozens on the dole by summarily axeing the majority of their local services because they couldn't screw any more subsidy out of the local authorities.

So it's got nothing to do with the local authority at all then. Ask yourself why other bus operators are not jumping at the chance to take over these lucrative routes?

 

[Realfish]

I should think Mr Kawczynski does - along with most of the population of Shropshire.....
After their experiences of Virgin Trains, the people of Shropshire are never going to be cheerleaders for Sir Richard Branson. Many of them will be glad to see the back of Virgin, so long as First don't ditch Shrewsbury services a few years down the line.

He /they may well have a point, but the view held by some that VT destroyed W&S goes too far - DB took that decision.

It, though, remains to be seen whether First (or Virgin) can make a Shrewsbury service pay, and for First to clarify whether the service provided will be as a trial or not - something which is not clear from earlier posts on here and something that O'Toole seemed less than sure footed on at the TSC.

Similarly, more broadly, it would be good for First to clarify whether the 15% reduction in walk on fares is 'for two years' or '(to be introduced) within the first two years' - they have said both, as have MPs and commentators.

 

[transmanche]

If Virgin ran commuter services, they'd have to spend a lot more money on marketing to convince people how good the company is!

Which is precisely why they wouldn't bid for a commuter franchise - such things do not fit into the Virgin brand image.

I've done some digging around to find some comparison figures for UK bus operations, from their latest annual reports.

Stagecoach (UK bus, excl London)
2010/2011: 17.9%
2011/2012: 17.1%

Go-Ahead (UK bus, excl London)
2010/2011: 11.6%
2011/2012: 11.3%

First (UK bus, incl London)
2010/2011: 13.1%
2011/2012: 11.6%
forecast 2012/2013: 8%

So it looks like Stagecoach and Go-Ahead are better at holding up their margin without large-scale closures/withdrawals of routes [*]. And Stagecoach in particular seem to have very healthy margins.

[*] Well the impression I get from the bus forum on here is that First have ceased/sold operations in a lot of places.

NB First do not split out the regulated (London) from their non-regulated (outside London) business. If it follows the pattern of the other two companies, It's likely that their non-regulated margin is a percentage or so higher.

 

[tbtc]

Like they're ditching bus services all over the country? In my area, they've cut off whole communities and put dozens on the dole by summarily axeing the majority of their local services because they couldn't screw any more subsidy out of the local authorities

Most of the routes ditched in East Lothian and Midlothian had parallel Lothian Buses routes - you could argue that the level of competition on routes like the 44 was over the top.

After Lothian stepped in with a handful of replacement services (linking Dalkeith to Mussleburgh etc) there's not really a lot of links lost

Of course, they could also ditch the whole franchise as soon as it starts costing them anything. They do have form for that

Not this again!!!

Ah, here we go again, the "First handed the keys back to early" argument

What next - Pacers can't run on Third Rail track and Richard Branson designed 390s himself to feel like planes inside?

He /they may well have a point, but the view held by some that VT destroyed W&S goes too far - DB took that decision

WSMR was always going to be a slim operation, even before any recession - employing fifty five people whilst running three return trips a day may have meant high passenger satisfaction scores (based on the level of attention that staff could afford to give passengers) but not a great business model.

It'd have struggled even if Virgin had sat back and done nothing.

 

[Stats]

Similarly, more broadly, it would be good for First to clarify whether the 15% reduction in walk on fares is 'for two years' or '(to be introduced) within the first two years' - they have said both, as have MPs and commentators.

I thought it was quite clear myself, although that might be because I don't recall hearing FirstGroup say "for two years" myself. At the Select Committee hearing they said delivered within two years.

Vernon Barker: The reduction in the Standard Anytime fare is 15%. That affects 20% of the fares starting in January 2013. That will be delivered within two years.

Tim O'Toole: We say within the first two years but it will happen in about 13 months. We will do it coincident with the regulated fare changes.