Trapped in train doors

[pendolino]

Pendolino - he was very cross, and considering the shock I'd just had I was surprisingly calm and not offensive to him! Another passenger on the platform also heard the exchange and had her mouth open in disbelief so I know it wasn't just me who thought he was out of order!

It's quite likely he was quite shocked too! Unfortunately the repetitive nature of the job is such that sometimes standards start to slip (not deliberately, just as a result of doing the same thing over and over again without incident) and he was possibly annoyed at himself for doing something that could have injured you. Hopefully this incident will mean he's more careful in the future, I'm just sorry that you had to be the impetus.

 

[A-driver]

I'm surprised at the responses on the forum that do not appear to treat this as a serious incident. The children in the buggy could have been seriously injured.

Doesn't this warrant a referal to the Health and Safety Executive?

Well what would they suggest? As multie posters have said, drivers can't see inside the train so if the outside is clear when the door close is pressed then the driver has done nothing wrong. If you push a buggy between the doors after the alarm has started (which I have seen many people do!) then that's up to you, not the driver who can't see you do this until its too late.

 

[pendolino]

Well what would they suggest? As multie posters have said, drivers can't see inside the train so if the outside is clear when the door close is pressed then the driver has done nothing wrong. If you push a buggy between the doors after the alarm has started (which I have seen many people do!) then that's up to you, not the driver who can't see you do this until its too late.

In this case, it seems that the driver is the one at fault - despatch was started before the doors were clear. I think an email to FCC is perfectly justified, and if FCC think it is worth doing so they will remind their drivers of the need for constant vigilance and to check and double check when self-despatching.

After all what's the most likely cause of injury on the railway these days? It's not SPADs, or collisions, or derailment, it's the PTI.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Yes, you've got it. I've done it on a few occasions. Make a PA announcement informing the passengers there will be a delay, contact the signaller for the same reason, then shut down the cab, walk back to close doors using local door close buttons, back up the front, set up the cab, check for interlock, final check that doors are clear (by stepping onto the platform if necessary) then off you go. By doing that, you have complied with the requirements of the Rule Book to the very best of your ability.

It takes a couple of minutes, but tough. No-one's ever died or got injured solely because their train was 2 minutes late, but they have been when despatch has been rushed.

If you ever come across a driver or guard who said they couldn't see the whole train and just hit the doors close button and hoped for the best, then tell them this. And remind them that if an accident should happen, they are opening themselves up to being personally responsible for any consequences, because they have not complied with the Rule Book.

(Mentioning no names, I have said exactly this to a poster on here - another driver - who admitted to self-despatching without being able to see the rear of the train, at a location where the mirrors are known by drivers to be adequate - yet he'd had never reported it.)

Thats a very fair and sobering post. Maybe James Street would not of happened if the Guard had not just 'hoped for the best' nor can I see a Company getting very far disciplining a Guard/Driver/Dispatcher/Whoever for causing a delay ensuring that the train is safe to dispatch. My original point, as I'm sure you know was that it is impossible for us to see what is going on inside the train at each door as we are concentrating on watching the events outside.

 

[A-driver]

In this case, it seems that the driver is the one at fault - despatch was started before the doors were clear. I think an email to FCC is perfectly justified, and if FCC think it is worth doing so they will remind their drivers of the need for constant vigilance and to check and double check when self-despatching.

After all what's the most likely cause of injury on the railway these days? It's not SPADs, or collisions, or derailment, it's the PTI.

Well unless I'm misreading the posts (and I'm at work so scanning through) the OP started to leave after the doors were clear and after the driver had started to close the doors?

 

[Linziburns]

He certainly wouldn't have been able to move with the doors open and as soon as he saw you I would Imagen he acted-that's how you had time to go and walk to the front to knock on his window and talk to him!

I was in the first carriage and the driver compartment is right there. He was preparing to leave and appeared surprised when I tapped on his window. I had to force my way off, the doors did not open.

As for instances of people being dragged by FCC trains they have other circumstances surrounding them and you should fully read those RAIB reports before making assumptions.

And as I said earlier, I read online newspaper reports that have to be viewed with scepticism, at no time did I state that a train could or could not leave with the pushchair blocking the doors. I said these reports 'suggest that trains can and do leave with doors ajar.' I'm making no assumption.

Doors will not bounce back like a lift-if they did then rush hour trains would never ever leave!

Since this is the first time I've got stuck in train doors I expected them to act like lift doors (an assumption). After getting trapped, I have experienced first hand that they don't.

As for the 29 secs, its not official but 20 secs is far more than enough time to get on and off, even with a buggy. Obviously if after 20 secs people are still visible to the driver getting on and off then he will not start closing the doors.

'Obviously' the driver did close the doors and I firmly believe that we were visible. Had we have had 20 secs from the time the doors opened, I agree, however after other passengers had alighted and then negotiating the large gap between train and platform, the 20 seconds had expired.

And I thought Mojos post was excellent-summed it up and answered all your questions. How was it unsympathetic?! Just factual.

I didn't say Mojo's post was unsympathetic, I said 'unhelpful and patronising'.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Well unless I'm misreading the posts (and I'm at work so scanning through) the OP started to leave after the doors were clear and after the driver had started to close the doors?

I thought she had made it clear that the buggy was half way out of the doors backwards with someone on the platform holding it in clear view BEFORE the hustle alarm sounded.

 

[Mojo]

Doesn't this warrant a referal to the Health and Safety Executive?

The role of the HSE as concerns railway safety was taken away in 2006 and given to the ORR. I am not even sure the RAIB would be interested. I cannot see why there would be a need to report this to anyone, other than FCC as perhaps a customer service issue. The train did not move off and there is no suggestion that the procedures in place to ensure a train does not move off with someone trapped in the doors have not been followed.

 

[Linziburns]

Well unless I'm misreading the posts (and I'm at work so scanning through) the OP started to leave after the doors were clear and after the driver had started to close the doors?

I think you are misreading the posts - I said earlier 'We were half way off by the time the 'doors closing' tone sounded.' and 'Since we were exiting the train well before the the 'doors closing' tone sounded' (posts 10 and 12).

To be clear, the buggy was halfway out when the door alarm sounded, then closed.

 

[pendolino]

Thats a very fair and sobering post. Maybe James Street would not of happened if the Guard had not just 'hoped for the best' nor can I see a Company getting very far disciplining a Guard/Driver/Dispatcher/Whoever for causing a delay ensuring that the train is safe to dispatch. My original point, as I'm sure you know was that it is impossible for us to see what is going on inside the train at each door as we are concentrating on watching the events outside.

If my company (hypothetically; I'm confident they would never do so even though our punctuality figures have been pretty atrocious lately) tried to discipline me for causing such a delay, I know I would be fully supported by my line manager and at least two competency development managers who have all agreed that if such circumstances necessitate a delay for safety reasons, then so be it.

I agree that it's impossible to see what's going on inside the train - but we're not expected to do so as no provision is made for this. If someone jumps off the train as the doors start to close and gets injured then that is unfortunate but not the fault of the driver/guard - they have no way of foreseeing this. But if someone is in the process of alighting and is injured by closing doors because the driver/guard hasn't carried out their responsibilities under the Rule Book correctly then that is the driver's/guard's fault. That's the distinction I've been trying to make throughout this thread.

 

[Anon Mouse]

If my company (hypothetically; I'm confident they would never do so even though our punctuality figures have been pretty atrocious lately) tried to discipline me for causing such a delay, I know I would be fully supported by my line manager and at least two competency development managers who have all agreed that if such circumstances necessitate a delay for safety reasons, then so be it.

I agree that it's impossible to see what's going on inside the train - but we're not expected to do so as no provision is made for this. If someone jumps off the train as the doors start to close and gets injured then that is unfortunate but not the fault of the driver/guard - they have no way of foreseeing this. But if someone is in the process of alighting and is injured by closing doors because the driver/guard hasn't carried out their responsibilities under the Rule Book correctly then that is the driver's/guard's fault. That's the distinction I've been trying to make throughout this thread.

And that is fair enough and I agree 100%, apologies if I've gone around the houses a bit to agree!

 

[Linziburns]

I thought she had made it clear that the buggy was half way out of the doors backwards with someone on the platform holding it in clear view BEFORE the hustle alarm sounded.

Thanks, I appreciate someone else reading the past comments! Almost wish I'd never started this, didn't actually expect to have to defend my actions so acutely!

 

[TGV]

To be clear, the buggy was halfway out when the door alarm sounded, then closed.

If that is indeed the sequence of events then it seems to me to be clear that the driver was at fault.

 

[Linziburns]

If that is indeed the sequence of events then it seems to me to be clear that the driver was at fault.

Thanks. I do appreciate that the forum is only being given my side of the story..

 

[pendolino]

And that is fair enough and I agree 100%, apologies if I've gone around the houses a bit to agree!

You don't need to apologise. I am sure you do your very best to do your job safely. It's just that I have had discussions about despatch before (on here and face-to-face with other drivers) and sometimes it feels like some train crew are a bit fatalistic about it - along the lines of 'I can't see the train properly at [station], the monitors/mirrors are c**p, but they won't do anything about it so what can you do? just close the doors and hope for the best!' when there is something you can do.

That 'something' may result in a delay but, let's face it, you can write any old rubbish on a 'please explain' if you want to, give it back to the PM and forget about it. Standing up in court to answer prosecution questions to try and justify your actions when you're on a manslaughter charge is a little more difficult. Maybe that's a bit melodramatic, but as we have seen recently it can and does happen.

 

[Anon Mouse]

You don't need to apologise. I am sure you do your very best to do your job safely. It's just that I have had discussions about despatch before (on here and face-to-face with other drivers) and sometimes it feels like some train crew are a bit fatalistic about it - along the lines of 'I can't see the train properly at [station], the monitors/mirrors are c**p, but they won't do anything about it so what can you do? just close the doors and hope for the best!' when there is something you can do.

That 'something' may result in a delay but, let's face it, you can write any old rubbish on a 'please explain' if you want to, give it back to the PM and forget about it. Standing up in court to answer prosecution questions to try and justify your actions when you're on a manslaughter charge is a little more difficult. Maybe that's a bit melodramatic, but as we have seen recently it can and does happen.

Indeed, and there is now a Man with his life in tatters in a prison cell doing time for a mistake in his dispatch procedure

 

[michael769]

Indeed, and there is now a Man with his life in tatters in a prison cell doing time for a mistake in his dispatch procedure

Not to mention a family who will never see their loved one again.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Not to mention a family who will never see their loved one again.

Who should not have been out at that time without adult supervison, underage and drunk, under the influence of drungs and fooling about on the platform. Yes the Guard did not follow his correct procedure there is also an element of misadventure and poor parenting

 

[SPADTrap]

Personally, I think a case of get over it is in order. The driver didn't mean it, mistakes happen, don't go calling for blood. You've registered a complaint with FCC, why the intent to take it to someone else? What do you think the rail industry is?

Just what I think, haven't got to like it.

Oh and expect to have a few blunt posts when you ask questions how you did in your first post, mostly misguided assumptions.

Nevertheless, I'm glad you're okay! Nasty situation indeed, but we're all humans.

 

[Linziburns]

Oh and expect to have a few blunt posts when you ask questions how you did in your first post, mostly misguided assumptions.

Rest assured I'm not out for blood, I just want to ensure that if the rail company ignores my email I know who to take it to next.

As for my questions, they're very straight forward; I simply want to seek answers from those better qualified. Questions are not assumptions, they're a way to obtain information. Assumption is taking something for granted.

Thanks for your concern!

 

[SPADTrap]

Rest assured I'm not out for blood, I just want to ensure that if the rail company ignores my email I know who to take it to next.

As for my questions, they're very straight forward; I simply want to seek answers from those better qualified. Questions are not assumptions, they're a way to obtain information. Assumption is taking something for granted.

Thanks for your concern!

Indeed.

"I would like to know how the driver could close the doors without first checking that passengers were clear"

I'm sure checks would have been done?

Alas, I hear something called Passenger Focus thrown around here a lot when passengers wish to complain, sure there is a website.

I don't mean to sound snotty, I wish you well with your inquiries.

But what do you actually want to complain for? The driver not doing his job properly? The driver making a mistake? The fact that you got stuck in the door as a result of these? Just to clear it up..

 

[Latecomer]

I sympathise with you for feeling that the doors were closed on you, but depending on the class of train it is extremely rare that someone will be half way out (even with buggy) when the hustle alarm sounds and not make it all the way out by the time the doors close. I suspect (but don't know) that at best a wheel was just emerging as the driver pushed door close. As said before re-release does not necessarily re-open the doors, but the driver would not have been able to take power and move in your situation. As an example I can press the doors close button without anyone in view on the platform, let alone in the dispatch corridor (between the white and yellow lines) yet in that time people can either emerge from the train or run onto the train and most will feel that the doors were closed on them as if we can see absolutely everywhere. We can't, we focus principally on the dispatch corridor.

I do think it highly probable the driver pressed door closed before he saw you emerge. He should however have seen you stuck. You may feel he could have done more but in reality people extract themselves by the doors bouncing open before the driver physically is able to open the doors (as different from re-release). Either way the investigation will be able to precisely determine when the driver pressed doors close in relation to what he could see on the DOO CCTV (there has to be a degree of split-second 'thinking' time in this). I will only activate in carriage CCTV if I believe someone is deliberately obstructing the doors or I have been advised that someone with reduced mobility wishes to alight at a given station.

I do understand your alarm and concern. It is natural to be so as a mum, but I do feel the driver MAY not have acted unprofessionally except (perhaps) in their response to you when you approached them. More TOCs are publicising how best to wheel buggies off trains.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The OP could "get over it" or try and prevent another incident by instigating some refresher training for staff that may have fallen out of the habit of best practice.

 

[Linziburns]

I don't mean to sound snotty, I wish you well with your inquiries.

Many thanks

 

[SPADTrap]

The OP could "get over it" or try and prevent another incident by instigating some refresher training for staff that may have fallen out of the habit of best practice.

Of course. Always room for more training. But the driver can't see inside this particular train. If no one emerges for a few seconds that's taken as time to leave, not sure how we can train a driver around that situation really...

 

[Monty]

To be clear, the buggy was halfway out when the door alarm sounded, then closed.

I am honestly quite surprised at the controversy this thread has caused, unfortunately getting caught in the door happens far often than posters on this forums may realise. Does this mean someone has been woefully negligent or that the dispatch procedure has not been followed correctly? Not necessarily, (from a Guard's perspective) it is very easy to miss seeing someone boarding or alighting at the last minute, there are lots of doors to watch and you only have one pair of eyes after all. Even after you think everyone has finished boarding or alighting and you hit that CLOSE DOORS button a passenger can seemingly appear from thin air.

Now the OP states they were in clear view, I'd like to know how they know that for sure? Just because you have half a buggy sticking out a door does not mean you are highly visible to the guard or driver. Even being at the set of doors nearest of the driving cab doesn't mean the driver can see you easily, for all you know he may be focusing his attention to the rear of the train (please for the love of god do not say "well you should be focused on all of the doors at the same time!" as it's just not possible, one pair of eyes and all that. )

Now I'd like to go back to a post by the OP I have highlighted, and i'm surprised no one else has picked up on this. Now we have already concluded that the rolling stock must have been of an older design as new trains have doors fitted on them that will either stop closing entirely or 'ping' back open upon if an obstruction prevents the doors from shutting. Now while older stock may not have these features fitted, I have noticed that hussle alarm will sound a good moment before the doors close (infact it defeats their whole purpose if they do not give a warning before the doors close). So getting back to the incident in question if a passenger indeed had a buggy halfway through a set of doors as the alarm sounded you should have sufficient to alight safely before the doors actually close.

Is it me, or does it sound like perhaps the OP tried to alight from the train as the dispatch procedure had commenced rather than the driver intentionally closing the doors on her as she alighted? Just my 2 cents.

 

[SPADTrap]

I am honestly quite surprised at the controversy this thread has caused, unfortunately getting caught in the door happens far often than posters on this forums may realise. Does this mean someone has been woefully negligent or that the dispatch procedure has not been followed correctly? Not necessarily, (from a Guard's perspective) it is very easy to miss seeing someone boarding or alighting at the last minute, there are lots of doors to watch and you only have one pair of eyes after all. Even after you think everyone has finished boarding or alighting and you hit that CLOSE DOORS button a passenger can seemingly appear from thin air.

Now the OP states they were in clear view, I'd like to know how they know that for sure? Just because you have half a buggy sticking out a door does not mean you are highly visible to the guard or driver. Even being at the set of doors nearest of the driving cab doesn't mean the driver can see you easily, for all you know he may be focusing his attention to the rear of the train (please for the love of god do not say "well you should be focused on all of the doors at the same time!" as it's just not possible, one pair of eyes and all that. )

Now I'd like to go back to a post by the OP I have highlighted, and i'm surprised no one else has picked up on this. Now we have already concluded that the rolling stock must have been of an older design as new trains have doors fitted on them that will either stop closing entirely or 'ping' back open upon if an obstruction prevents the doors from shutting. Now while older stock may not have these features fitted, I have noticed that hussle alarm will sound a good moment before the doors close (infact it defeats their whole purpose if they do not give a warning before the doors close). So getting back to the incident in question if a passenger indeed had a buggy halfway through a set of doors as the alarm sounded you should have sufficient to alight safely before the doors actually close.

Is it me, or does it sound like perhaps the OP tried to alight from the train as the dispatch procedure had commenced rather than the driver intentionally closing the doors on her as she alighted? Just my 2 cents.

Pretty sound information. I don't suppose we'll ever know as we cannot relive the events. I really doubt this will receive any sort of 'investigation' though. Just fortunate everyone is OK!

 

[Panda]

Is it me, or does it sound like perhaps the OP tried to alight from the train as the dispatch procedure had commenced rather than the driver intentionally closing the doors on her as she alighted? Just my 2 cents.

I think this is alluded to in an earlier post...

After other people had alighted before us we then attempted to leave ourselves.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I am honestly quite surprised at the controversy this thread has caused, unfortunately getting caught in the door happens far often than posters on this forums may realise. Does this mean someone has been woefully negligent or that the dispatch procedure has not been followed correctly? Not necessarily, (from a Guard's perspective) it is very easy to miss seeing someone boarding or alighting at the last minute, there are lots of doors to watch and you only have one pair of eyes after all. Even after you think everyone has finished boarding or alighting and you hit that CLOSE DOORS button a passenger can seemingly appear from thin air.

Now the OP states they were in clear view, I'd like to know how they know that for sure? Just because you have half a buggy sticking out a door does not mean you are highly visible to the guard or driver. Even being at the set of doors nearest of the driving cab doesn't mean the driver can see you easily, for all you know he may be focusing his attention to the rear of the train (please for the love of god do not say "well you should be focused on all of the doors at the same time!" as it's just not possible, one pair of eyes and all that. )

Now I'd like to go back to a post by the OP I have highlighted, and i'm surprised no one else has picked up on this. Now we have already concluded that the rolling stock must have been of an older design as new trains have doors fitted on them that will either stop closing entirely or 'ping' back open upon if an obstruction prevents the doors from shutting. Now while older stock may not have these features fitted, I have noticed that hussle alarm will sound a good moment before the doors close (infact it defeats their whole purpose if they do not give a warning before the doors close). So getting back to the incident in question if a passenger indeed had a buggy halfway through a set of doors as the alarm sounded you should have sufficient to alight safely before the doors actually close.

Is it me, or does it sound like perhaps the OP tried to alight from the train as the dispatch procedure had commenced rather than the driver intentionally closing the doors on her as she alighted? Just my 2 cents.

Well all one can go by is what the OP has stated. Which is she didn't go after the button was hit and if being stood fully on the platform is not visible then I don't know what is.

There seems to be a culture of stating that what the OP posts is not true. In which case these sorts of questions might as well be ignored as we could go through many many scenarios where certain facts of a story are taken at face value and certain are not.

If points are false then the poster will find that out in the real life situation that follows

 

[reb0118]

Gareth, as more of a lurker on here, i agree with your comments. No doubt i will get banned for the following, but that is the attitude i would have expected from Bob Crowe, that well known dinosaur.

We all know that Crow (NB not Crowe) would have great sympathy with the OP.

This type of incident is much more unlikely, but not impossible, to happen with traditional Driver/Guard operation.

Other posters have made lots of valid points but with regard to the "you only have 20 seconds to get off" quote attributed to the driver in question I wish to state this:-

"At most stations you only get 30 seconds station or dwell time. This is for the traincrew to check that the train is correctly positioned on the platform, the doors to open, passengers to alight, passengers to board (in that order), the doors to close, final check that all is safe, depart"

In my opinion you will have a lot less than 20 seconds to alight. NB at some stations, mainly principle ones, and at certain times, mainly the peak, additional time is factored in to accomodate the increase in passenger numbers.

Does the forum think that dwell times are sufficient? Would we be prepared to accept the additional journey times associated with increased dwell times?

Obviously, as a guard I am biased but I think that I have an much better overall view of the PTI (platform/train interface) than the narrow view of most ontrain CCTV door cameras. This was confirmed to me by a DOO (Driver Only Operation) driver who was an ex guard.

I would like to wish the OP a belated welcome to the forum and to state that although this was a distressing incident she seems a robust character (from reading her posts alone - apologies if you are not) and will no doubt get over it (as she may have already done? ). Also, to re-iterate there was absolutely no danger of the train moving with the pram in the door.

I have supplimentary questions for any DOO drivers out there: At what point would you notice a pram being pushed out though the doors? Most prams form a triangular shape with the point to the front so the area visible would increase as the pram was pushed out but it may not be visible at the start of the process. Secondly, I have been told by a DOO driver that someone standing more than a few inches away from the side of the train would not be visible via the ontrain CCTV cameras, can this be confirmed?