Are the SW Valleys EVER going to get BRAND NEW trains?

[YorkshireBear]

Not quite, but see above.
It comes out within ten percent once you account for the difference in vehicle weight.

Thanks

 

[anthony263]

Less power but also less weight. Be interested to see if a 4 car 315 has the same power to weight ratio as a 150.

If the class 315's are fitted with new traction motors I hope they will further increase the acceleration these units have although as with many different units some perform much better than others.
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Something else I would like to know is what is likely to happen to the Swansea - Cardiff swanline services especially if they are replaced with a new direct shuttle service between Swansea & Bath Spa via Cardiff and Bristol Temple Meads.

Passenger numbers are certainly increasing rapidly between Cardiff & Bristol/Bath so I think something like the class 319's will be required on this route.

A half hourly stopping service linking Swansea and Cardilff to Bristol TM & Bath Spa will be very well used I would think.

 

[Searle]

May optimism disappeared recently though, when I discovered that FULL electrification might not be complete until 2024 (so that’s a definite then), and even then, we’ll be getting second hand, mid-1970s built refurbished Class 313 trains, that by the time they reach south Wales, will already be 45 – 50 years old, older than our current mid-1980s built DMU’s!!!!!!!!!!!

The 313's aren't that bad. Yes they're old and not particularly speedy but they're a league ahead of pacers.

 

[tom1649]

The PEPs have very good acceleration up to about 50mph. Above that some units seem to be better than others.

 

[tbtc]

The PEPs have very good acceleration up to about 50mph. Above that some units seem to be better than others.

Maybe the OP will contradict me, but from my memory there's not a lot of Valley Line services above 50mph (given that virtually every service stops at every station)

 

[anthony263]

Maybe the OP will contradict me, but from my memory there's not a lot of Valley Line services above 50mph (given that virtually every service stops at every station)

I agree with this one of the longer sections between stations is say from Cardiff Queen Street to Heath High Level where line speed is 70mph.

The core valley lines network should be ok for the class 315's its those which run via the mainline where there can be long sections between stations such as services to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale as well as services between Barry and Bridgend via the Vale of Glamorgan Line as well as the swanline services between Cardiff Central & Port Talbot Parkway where linespeed can be between 75-90mph.

I look forward to seeing how soemthing like the class 315's cope with steep grades such as stormy bank

 

[455driver]

One reason you may want to dump the fourth vehicle from the Cl315 formation is to allow them to match or beat Class 150 timings.

They should be able to match Pacer timings at 4 cars but they would only have 880hp.

A 4 car Class 150 formation has 1144hp.
Even accounting for transmission efficiencies and the train's hotel loads that sounds like it might mean a 4 car class 315 could not keep to the current journey times, let alone improve them.
A 3x20m train is still as long as a four car Pacer formation.

EDIT:

Oops, have just accounted for the marginally heavier nature of the Cl150 carriage.
That reduces the Class 150 p:w ratio value for the Cl315 to about 1005hp.
Which means they have at most 10% more power than the Cl315 so matching current timings should be easily possible.

And an 80m train would be as long as 5.16 pacer vehicles.
So a 3-car joined to a 2-car.

On every single service.

I take it you have allowed for the differences in the transmission because an electric transmission will always perform better/ more efficiently than a hydro-mechanical one.

 

[HSTEd]

I take it you have allowed for the differences in the transmission because an electric transmission will always perform better/ more efficiently than a hydro-mechanical one.

Allowing for that sort of stuff is always iffy.
But once you account for it it would appear the 4-car Class 315 should be roughly equivalent to the Class 150 once you account for non traction loads on the engines and the different acceleration characteristics provided by the electric transmission.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Liverpool to Southport or Chester is nearly as long as some Cardiff Valley journeys, and thie 507s and 508s have no toilets. 313s do some longer journeys on the South Coast without toilets. I am not suggesting lack of toilets is a good idea, but "they" might give South Wales trains without toilets.

The issue of toilets isn't just about journey length. The vast majority of the stations on the south wales valley lines are essentially unstaffed halts, with very basic passenger facilities (if any at all). As there are no toilets on around 90% of the stations, I'd imagine toilets on the trains would be necessary.

 

[W230]

I take it you have allowed for the differences in the transmission because an electric transmission will always perform better/ more efficiently than a hydro-mechanical one.

I'm quite happily corrected but I thought that with maximum torque available from a standstill with electric traction motors, on a regular stop/start service they would be able to provide equal competition with a more powerful DMU (within reason, obviously!)

I do love these posts where people can't seem to understand why a franchise that makes money sees more investment than one which requires the largest subsidy. Especially when massive investment is currently being provided in the heavily subsidised franchise! If old rolling stock is all there is to complain about then things must be looking good on the Valley lines.

 

[Pugland53]

Maybe the OP will contradict me, but from my memory there's not a lot of Valley Line services above 50mph (given that virtually every service stops at every station)

Treforest to Cardiff is between 55 and 70mph. Caerphilly tunnel to Cardiff is 75mph. North of Ponty/Caerphilly there are stretches of 60mph in places but you don't get there very often!

 

[talltim]

There's already been plenty of new new stock in the Valleys. Just not for a while. For example, pretty much all of these companies stock was new when they got it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhymney_Railway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taff_Vale_Railway

 

[tbtc]

I agree with this one of the longer sections between stations is say from Cardiff Queen Street to Heath High Level where line speed is 70mph

Treforest to Cardiff is between 55 and 70mph. Caerphilly tunnel to Cardiff is 75mph. North of Ponty/Caerphilly there are stretches of 60mph in places but you don't get there very often!

Thanks both

 

[Boothby97]

And i do no believe the full refurbishment of ATW 150s has started yet, they next refurb will be to make them DDA compliant and the definitely hasn't begun yet.

No conformation has been made by the Dft if the 150s or Pacers will be made DDA compliant, but the 150s (at least) may have to stay in traffic until the 2020s. In fact nothing has been said about mods for the 155s, 158s or 159s
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You will probably find that the complete interior is stripped out and completely replaced including fitting a proper wheel chair space including a compliant toilet.

The PEPs are still good for a few decades yet, you only have to look at what is being done to 317(722?) to see that.

Most if not all trains will require at least one DDA (universal) toilets won't they. The only trains with no toilet will presumably be the two PPMs on the Stourbridge branch but that's only a three minute journey.

On another note, there has been no conformation on the 313s going to Wales. Those on Southern should be cascaded with the help of new 377s and those on FCC are going nowhere anytime soon. No mods for the 313s has yet been confirmed but the 314s are likely to be made DDA compliant

Thanks, Sam

 

[HSTEd]

Most if not all trains will require at least one DDA (universal) toilets won't they. The only trains with no toilet will presumably be the two PPMs on the Stourbridge branch but that's only a three minute journey.

Many trains have no toilets at all and I expect this to continue and increase in a world of reduced journey times and demands to cram as many seats as physically possible into the vehicles.

On another note, a minor extension to the Crossrail stock procurement would free the entire 61 unit Class 315 class.... which providing additional electrification could be provided would allow for busting of a rather large fraction of the 130 Pacer units in service. (They would superior by total length to the 270 Pacer vehicles by about 20%, although obviously more units would be required due to not all Pacers operating in double formations).

Add in a minor extension to the Thameslink rolling stock order to cover Moorgate services and you can have ~15 additional 3-car units which allows for virtually the entire Pacer fleet to be disposed of.

All you have to do is pay a relatively minor premium to acquire additional electrification resources before the end of CP5/mid CP6. And I doubt it would be that much extra work if you pick and choose your routes. (Manchester suburban routes operated by diesels come to mind)

I think that is better value for money than new diesels.

EDIT:

And then there is the possibility of the Southern Class 313s being displaced to the cascade pool by refurbished Class 507/508s (59 units) made redundant by the Merseyrail replacement project, assuming it actually happens, which gives us 19 Cl313s for the cascade pool and 40 3 car units for strengthening Coastway (and other lightly used Southern) Services.

If the PEPs are going to be sticking around we should go all out.

And what is wrong with all those stored 508s to mean they stay stored in face of overcrowding on Merseyrail?
Is it something that a 317 style traction rebuild would fix or are they beyond help?

 

[ryan125hst]

The issue of toilets isn't just about journey length. The vast majority of the stations on the south wales valley lines are essentially unstaffed halts, with very basic passenger facilities (if any at all). As there are no toilets on around 90% of the stations, I'd imagine toilets on the trains would be necessary.

That's right. I believe I am correct in saying that all stations on Merseyrail are staffed and many of them (but not all) have toilets (I'm going by the station information on National Rail's website). This would mean that passengers could break their journey to use the toilet if they needed to.

In London, not all stations that are served by toiletless trains have toilets (the Great Northern Line doesn't have many stations with toilets, for example), but as it is London, there will normally be a toilet nearby I would have thought.

As said above, most stations in the Valleys are unstaffed and I doubt there are many toilets near to the stations, so toilets will be needed in my opnion.

 

[Boothby97]

Many trains have no toilets at all and I expect this to continue and increase in a world of reduced journey times and demands to cram as many seats as physically possible into the vehicles.

On another note, a minor extension to the Crossrail stock procurement would free the entire 61 unit Class 315 class.... which providing additional electrification could be provided would allow for busting of a rather large fraction of the 130 Pacer units in service. (They would superior by total length to the 270 Pacer vehicles by about 20%, although obviously more units would be required due to not all Pacers operating in double formations).

Add in a minor extension to the Thameslink rolling stock order to cover Moorgate services and you can have ~15 additional 3-car units which allows for virtually the entire Pacer fleet to be disposed of.

All you have to do is pay a relatively minor premium to acquire additional electrification resources before the end of CP5/mid CP6. And I doubt it would be that much extra work if you pick and choose your routes. (Manchester suburban routes operated by diesels come to mind)

I think that is better value for money than new diesels.

Re: toilets
What I mean is wont all units require (at least) 1 DDA toilet by 2020

 

[HSTEd]

Re: toilets
What I mean is wont all units require (at least) 1 DDA toilet by 2020

No.
Why would they require a DDA toilet if they have no toilets full stop?

 

[455driver]

Re: toilets
What I mean is wont all units require (at least) 1 DDA toilet by 2020

Simple answer is no, if they have a toilet then it will have to be DDA (or whatever the latest buzz words are) compliant but if they dont have a toilet its fine.

Basically if trains with non compliant toilets cant be cost effectively be made compliant then the toilet will be ripped out so everyone is treated equally! :roll:

 

[Boothby97]

So is the toilet in 156402 wheelchair friendly?
Thanks, Sam

 

[Bevan Price]

That's right. I believe I am correct in saying that all stations on Merseyrail are staffed and many of them (but not all) have toilets (I'm going by the station information on National Rail's website). This would mean that passengers could break their journey to use the toilet if they needed to.

Chester, Liverpool Central, New Brighton & Southport still have "conventional" type public toilets. Liverpool Lime St. has "pay to enter" loos in the main line station. Moorfields used to have toilets at platform level on the Northern Line, but for some reason these have been closed, amd there are now "portaloo-type" toilets near the entrance.

A few other stations have basic "get the key from the ticket office" toilet facilities, and there is a public toilet just outside West Kirby station. The majority of other stations have no toilets.

 

[Cardiff123]

The original idea is that the class 315's displaced from Greater Anglia by crossrail will be making their way to the south wales valley and indead a few have been refurbished to meet the post 2020 DDA regulations.

That said a 4 carriage 315 will not be able to fit the platforms on the Cardiff Valley lines network the exception being those along the lines to Rhymney & Treherbert. Platform 0 at Bridgend I doubt will be able to accomodate a 4 carriage class 315 so I think the units will have to be reduced to 3 carriage units.

This is where the suggestion of using the class 313's comes from.

The longest train I've travelled on on the Valley lines was a 4 car 150/2 between Barry and Cardiff, which came from Bridgend via the Vale, and I assume was going onto Merthyr/Aberdare. So certainly stations on the Vale of Glamorgan line could accomodate 4 car EMUs, seeing as they can currently manage 4 car Sprinters?

 

[tom1649]

Simple answer is no, if they have a toilet then it will have to be DDA (or whatever the latest buzz words are) compliant but if they dont have a toilet its fine.

Basically if trains with non compliant toilets cant be cost effectively be made compliant then the toilet will be ripped out so everyone is treated equally! :roll:

Could it be permanently locked out of use or would it have to be physically removed?

 

[455driver]

Probably needs to be removed, you know what government departments are like for "ticking the box"! :roll:

 

[tbtc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the benchmark I use is that a small toilet takes up the space of four seats and a universal toilet takes up the space of a dozen seats. Just to put things into some kind of context.

 

[Aictos]

The longest train I've travelled on on the Valley lines was a 4 car 150/2 between Barry and Cardiff, which came from Bridgend via the Vale, and I assume was going onto Merthyr/Aberdare. So certainly stations on the Vale of Glamorgan line could accomodate 4 car EMUs, seeing as they can currently manage 4 car Sprinters?

BUT there is a big different between 20m trains and 23m trains, just because the platforms can take 4 x 20m trains does not mean they can automatically take 4 x 23m trains.

 

[HSTEd]

BUT there is a big different between 20m trains and 23m trains, just because the platforms can take 4 x 20m trains does not mean they can automatically take 4 x 23m trains.

But PEP series EMUs have 20m body shells.

 

[anthony263]

But PEP series EMUs have 20m body shells.

I thought they had 23m carriages

 

[krus_aragon]

The longest train I've travelled on on the Valley lines was a 4 car 150/2 between Barry and Cardiff, which came from Bridgend via the Vale, and I assume was going onto Merthyr/Aberdare. So certainly stations on the Vale of Glamorgan line could accomodate 4 car EMUs, seeing as they can currently manage 4 car Sprinters?

All the Valley Lines can take 4-car (20m) trains, except for stations between Ninian Park and Radyr on the City Line. Some routes were recently lengthened to 6-car lengths. (Treherbert, Penarth, Rhymney) Expanding past 4-car at Abercynon would be tricky, given the routes to Aberdare and Merthyr diverge at the end of the platform.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought they had 23m carriages

I'm pretty sure they're 20m. The mid-80s generation of BREL units (If I recall correctly that's 150,210,317-322,325,455,456) are also 20m despite being based on the mk3 bodyshell. You can tell that PEP-based centre-cars at least have the same (or at least pretty close) length due to the fact that the internal seating plan of the ex-508TS cars in the 455/7s matches that in the equivalent 'new' TS vehicles in the 455/8s and 9s.

No doubt if I've made any mistakes in this post, I'm sure someone will point them out! I'm near-certain the 150s at least are 20m, but then I'm just an autistic enthusiast! :roll: