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A career as a train driver

TDK

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19 Apr 2008
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Crewe
What qualifications are needed to become a train driver (or even train manager).

As A drivers says you do not need asy formal qualifications however it will greatly enhance your chances if you have had experience in the below lists:

1. Former experience in practical engineering although not a degree etc. just some experience.
2. Workning in a small team
3. working/spending a lot of time alone
4. Basic customer service experience
5. Having worked to strict rules and regulations
6. Able to explain a time when you have dealt with an emergency situation.
7. Worked previous shift work

If you look at these, there are certain groups of people who are generally successful with short listing and these are below:

1. Police
2. Ambulance
3. fireman
4. from the forces
5. Bus/lorry drivers
6. Pilots
7. Train guards

This list is just a guide but from my experience in recruiting if you have one of the above jobs you will almost certainly get through the first siftings stage.
 
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notadriver

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If you don't mind me commenting on bus/lorry drivers being a coach driver myself, many aspire to become train drivers but fail to make the grade. These are someone else's comments :

"ive cleaned buses and we need to do windows, upholstery,dash, seats etc and its the same as trains but £8000 less, why, and also train guards on £thousands, why everytime im on a train they punch my ticket and announce what station we are at, hardly seems hard, as with bus drivers need to know about tail swing,wind, congestion, pedestrains, tickets, steeering,highway code, and lots, ive been in the footplate of a class 37 and it was footpedal and handle, not much more to worry about except speed limits, even driver said it was easy.
after 20 yrs off and on driving buses I didn't even get to round 2 of last job advert for train driver, what sort of people get past stage 2, Tesco workers or what, I mean I was in transport for 20 yrs , all about safety and passenger comfort and rules, but didn't make stage 2."
 

TDK

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19 Apr 2008
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4,164
Location
Crewe
If you don't mind me commenting on bus/lorry drivers being a coach driver myself, many aspire to become train drivers but fail to make the grade. These are someone else's comments :

"ive cleaned buses and we need to do windows, upholstery,dash, seats etc and its the same as trains but £8000 less, why, and also train guards on £thousands, why everytime im on a train they punch my ticket and announce what station we are at, hardly seems hard, as with bus drivers need to know about tail swing,wind, congestion, pedestrains, tickets, steeering,highway code, and lots, ive been in the footplate of a class 37 and it was footpedal and handle, not much more to worry about except speed limits, even driver said it was easy.
after 20 yrs off and on driving buses I didn't even get to round 2 of last job advert for train driver, what sort of people get past stage 2, Tesco workers or what, I mean I was in transport for 20 yrs , all about safety and passenger comfort and rules, but didn't make stage 2."

Sorry to hear your friends dissapointment matey - this reaction and reply will get some trolling no doubt. I have always thought that driving a bus or a lorry was more taxing than a train to be fair but it is the rules/regs and trianing needed that I suppose could merit the extra money. There are many reasons why your friend didn't make stage 2, one most likely being that your friends completion of the application form was not up to the standard required.
 

LCC106

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16 Nov 2011
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1,390
Not sure exactly how a guard's salary is calculated but I would guess it's based on a combination of the antisocial shifts as well as the safety critical nature of the role, knowing how to protect lines in an emergency, ability to manage emergency evacuations, conducting safety checks, route knowledge, ticket machine handling, customer service, dealing with difficult situations, first aid training and administering as required, an understanding of rules concerning failure to provide or pay for a valid ticket (fare dodger or not), cash, credit and debit card handling, completion of paperwork etc...? Sure someone else will comment on this soon...

With regard to train driving, in addition to some (but not all) of the points I listed above they also need thorough route knowledge including speeds, gradients, junctions, signals, station orders, local instructions, basic fault finding and rectification skills, comprehensive knowledge of the Rule Book and the ability to demonstrate continued knowledge every 2 years, rules relating to speeds for operating defective trains in varying circumstances, requirement to isolate equipment, rules for driving in snow and ice, the ability to drive / control trains during low adhesion including making accurate stations stops and more...

As I understand it it is the unions who negotiated pay. When I first applied with 1 TOC about 12 years ago, the training rate was £10,000 and full pay £18,000 IIRC. I think, at the same point, a bus driver friend was earning around £16,000. I may be wrong. Perhaps it's worth asking whether the bus driver unions have attempted to negotiate pay at any point.

Demonstrating that you meet (and exceed) all the essential requirements on the application form is vital but easily overlooked. Perhaps as TDK suggests this was the case for your friend.

A supermarket worker or not, you may have relevant experience to draw on from paid or voluntary work and if you show clear evidence that you fit the requirements of the role you are more likely to get past the initial sift than someone with a basic application who fails to demonstrate this.

Hope this makes sense... Sorry for being longwinded.
 

westbrom

Member
Joined
14 Apr 2013
Messages
87
Ive just done my first aplication for trainee driver for london midland,seems like a lot of people really stress over the recruitment process,if they stress over this would they be able to cope with a stressfull job?????my way of thinking is if i am suitable for the job i will pass through them all,if im not suitable then nothing gained/nothing lost,but there is alot of usefull info on this sitejust to give you some sort of idea what to expect.
 

elboobio

Member
Joined
9 Nov 2012
Messages
18
I am 15 weeks in to my training as a trainee driver and at first had similar thoughts and frustrations trying to get through the application process and wondered why drivers, guards......anyone on the railway get paid so much. Since then I have learnt the answers to all these questions.

Regarding the application process, there are three to four thousand people applying for every trainee vacancy that comes up, I was one of four out of 4,500 applicants. I have been told I'm lucky, which in some respects is quite true, but I worked damn hard for 12 months to land the job, failing your first application and then ****ing and moaning about it isn't the way to go, you need to keep at it they're looking for driven people who meet their criteria, not people who just give up.

To add to this someone mentioned above about it being about the type of person you are and not your qualifications or experience and to an extent this is true, there's a reason those psychometric tests are in place as you could bull**** your way through the first few stages but if you're not the right type of person don't be disheartened, it's just because you wouldn't enjoy the job and you are suited to other things, staring at naff all for hours and still being switched on is a pretty rubbish skill to have in everyday life but perfect for drivers.

The pay, well I'd be lying if I said it wasn't more than similar graded jobs in other industries but that's only because the unions have fought for pay increases to keep up with inflation. People shouldn't be slating TOC's because they pay their staff a good rate of pay, they should be angry with other industries who pay their staff jack, I came from the fitness industry and nearly all of their jobs are teetering on minimum wage and I had more bits of paper saying how qualified I was than bits of paper with the queens head on.

For me drivers wages are justified, just it's not wide spread knowledge, the rule book is a minefield and is not written in any English I've ever seen, the variations in railway signage, some dating from the 1800's, speed restrictions with no signage, routes that you have to know inside out and at night you can see bugger all, learning rules like 15 reasons for passing signals at danger, 9 situations where you can do a wrong direction move, 19 failures/faults to report to the signaller immediately and 16 to report at first convenience. These are all things you have to know, not be able to read later. A DTM the other day compared the driver training content now to that of a 3 year university degree but compacted in to 9 months. So it's pretty intense. As I say I'm on week 15 and I bet I've driven a train for a total of around 15 minutes, the rest of the hours have been theory in the class room or underneath a unit.

Sorry for the length of this but I wanted to try give an insight and some answers for everyone that gets frustrated and annoyed with the application stage, but the answer isn't to then slate drivers and guards and try and make out that they do nothing, yes driving a train in normal conditions when nothing goes wrong is relatively easy, but it's the knowledge you need to learn and the potential scenario where you'll be standing in front of the man with the curly white wig if there's an accident that earns train men and women their money.

If you fail first time, keep going, to be one out of maybe a thousand isn't great odds, so realistically if you get through first time your application must have stood out but if not you don't get penalised for trying again apply as many times as you can, if you get put in a talent pool ignore it apply for every position that comes up, shows that you're keen and hungry for it. If you fail the psychometrics then it's because of the type of person you are nothing you can do about that and that's why you can only do it twice but everything else you can try as many times as it takes to land you that job!!!!
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
I am 15 weeks in to my training as a trainee driver and at first had similar thoughts and frustrations trying to get through the application process and wondered why drivers, guards......anyone on the railway get paid so much. Since then I have learnt the answers to all these questions.

Regarding the application process, there are three to four thousand people applying for every trainee vacancy that comes up, I was one of four out of 4,500 applicants. I have been told I'm lucky, which in some respects is quite true, but I worked damn hard for 12 months to land the job, failing your first application and then ****ing and moaning about it isn't the way to go, you need to keep at it they're looking for driven people who meet their criteria, not people who just give up.

To add to this someone mentioned above about it being about the type of person you are and not your qualifications or experience and to an extent this is true, there's a reason those psychometric tests are in place as you could bull**** your way through the first few stages but if you're not the right type of person don't be disheartened, it's just because you wouldn't enjoy the job and you are suited to other things, staring at naff all for hours and still being switched on is a pretty rubbish skill to have in everyday life but perfect for drivers.

The pay, well I'd be lying if I said it wasn't more than similar graded jobs in other industries but that's only because the unions have fought for pay increases to keep up with inflation. People shouldn't be slating TOC's because they pay their staff a good rate of pay, they should be angry with other industries who pay their staff jack, I came from the fitness industry and nearly all of their jobs are teetering on minimum wage and I had more bits of paper saying how qualified I was than bits of paper with the queens head on.

For me drivers wages are justified, just it's not wide spread knowledge, the rule book is a minefield and is not written in any English I've ever seen, the variations in railway signage, some dating from the 1800's, speed restrictions with no signage, routes that you have to know inside out and at night you can see bugger all, learning rules like 15 reasons for passing signals at danger, 9 situations where you can do a wrong direction move, 19 failures/faults to report to the signaller immediately and 16 to report at first convenience. These are all things you have to know, not be able to read later. A DTM the other day compared the driver training content now to that of a 3 year university degree but compacted in to 9 months. So it's pretty intense. As I say I'm on week 15 and I bet I've driven a train for a total of around 15 minutes, the rest of the hours have been theory in the class room or underneath a unit.

Sorry for the length of this but I wanted to try give an insight and some answers for everyone that gets frustrated and annoyed with the application stage, but the answer isn't to then slate drivers and guards and try and make out that they do nothing, yes driving a train in normal conditions when nothing goes wrong is relatively easy, but it's the knowledge you need to learn and the potential scenario where you'll be standing in front of the man with the curly white wig if there's an accident that earns train men and women their money.

If you fail first time, keep going, to be one out of maybe a thousand isn't great odds, so realistically if you get through first time your application must have stood out but if not you don't get penalised for trying again apply as many times as you can, if you get put in a talent pool ignore it apply for every position that comes up, shows that you're keen and hungry for it. If you fail the psychometrics then it's because of the type of person you are nothing you can do about that and that's why you can only do it twice but everything else you can try as many times as it takes to land you that job!!!!

Wait until you get to the rules regarding SLW and TBW! Hope you are enjoying it.
 

flu

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2013
Messages
9
Could anyone solve an argument that I have with a friend. As part of the assessment / medical process do TOC's get in touch with your doctor for your history as part of the medical?
 

Beveridges

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8 Sep 2010
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2,136
Location
BLACKPOOL
Driving a train is not a stressful job

Surely it can be at times? Like when managers come out for a ride with you. I know it would stress me out having a manager with me for 4 hours.

I'm glad where I am its just a quick shunt, prep and then they're gone. But on the mainline side I know they come with you for half a shift and they come down really hard on you for even the slightest thing that "they" don't like.

it sounds stressful as hell to me
 

A-driver

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4,482
Surely it can be at times? Like when managers come out for a ride with you. I know it would stress me out having a manager with me for 4 hours.

I'm glad where I am its just a quick shunt, prep and then they're gone. But on the mainline side I know they come with you for half a shift and they come down really hard on you for even the slightest thing that "they" don't like.

it sounds stressful as hell to me

Having a manager ride with you isn't stressful unless you constantly do things wrong. If you know your routes and are confident, which you would be to pass out, then it's No problem. I'm often glad of the company when a manager jumps in with me. It's nothing to get worried about!
 

Beveridges

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It's very tense and stressful - I'm just glad its only for about an hour at my place
 
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TDK

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19 Apr 2008
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Location
Crewe
Surely it can be at times? Like when managers come out for a ride with you. I know it would stress me out having a manager with me for 4 hours.

I'm glad where I am its just a quick shunt, prep and then they're gone. But on the mainline side I know they come with you for half a shift and they come down really hard on you for even the slightest thing that "they" don't like.

it sounds stressful as hell to me

Not stressful for me, even when things go wrong it isn't what I would say stressful - only in leaf fall would I say it's stressful but then again I don't really get stressed much outside of the job! As for managers, to be honest drivers can drive trains in general better than the managers anyway as the managers do not get the same amount of time in the seat as a driver. The manager normally gets stressed when you offer them to drive ;)
 

455driver

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10 May 2010
Messages
11,329
Wait until you get to the rules regarding SLW and TBW! Hope you are enjoying it.

I enjoyed "single line working" and "working of a single line" but not forgetting good old TW week! ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely it can be at times? Like when managers come out for a ride with you. I know it would stress me out having a manager with me for 4 hours.

I'm glad where I am its just a quick shunt, prep and then they're gone. But on the mainline side I know they come with you for half a shift and they come down really hard on you for even the slightest thing that "they" don't

Why would it be stressful except when its all gone base over apex?
They can ride around on my train as much as they like and as long as you are complying with this weeks driving policy there is nothing they can do (even if they hate you) as the OTMR will be your best friend.
 
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A-driver

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9 May 2011
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4,482
It's very tense and stressful - I'm just glad its only for about an hour at my place

Well to be honest it sounds like you have some very poor managers at your place. But that is the exception, not the rule. I have never had a manager ride up front who has made me tense or in anyway unrelaxed. And that goes for the managers who seem out to cause trouble to.
 

E&W Lucas

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21 Jan 2010
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1,358
Agree with the above. I've got on fine with all my line managers. In my experience, if you don't cause any trouble for them, they won't cause any for you. If you're one of their team that "they haven't got to worry about", they you won't know that they exist.
 

TDK

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19 Apr 2008
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4,164
Location
Crewe
Agree with the above. I've got on fine with all my line managers. In my experience, if you don't cause any trouble for them, they won't cause any for you. If you're one of their team that "they haven't got to worry about", they you won't know that they exist.

Indeed - the best drivers for managers are the ones you don't see unless you need to assess them or have the mandatory one to one!
 

BravoGolfMike

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Joined
21 Jan 2011
Messages
150
I had a ride out in Feb and actually enjoyed having some company for a change. I have a good manager though and we get on so that helps. I got the impression he enjoyed getting out of the office for a bit. Ride outs are nothing to worry about, neither are random downloads.

As for pay which was alluded to earlier, it cannot be overlooked that drivers were gifted an extremely fortunate set of circumstances post privatisation, with inexperienced boards trying to run the trains like a bus service with minimal drivers. Lots of redundancies were offered and taken leading to a shortage of skilled manpower. Training drivers is expensive and time consuming so wages started going up in order to attract the remaining staff.

When a new freight depot opened up near a large passenger company depot and started poaching drivers (early 2000s) from the TOC, the response was to offer a 5k payrise to the TOC drivers with the only string attached being an increase in the notice period required.

So why ASLEF continually bleats on about renationalisation is beyond me. I suspect the first thing that our overlords would do once we are all one big happy family again is to initiate a paycut, probably large, for drivers and ride out the strikes. We could also say goodbye to annual payrises at RPI+ levels too. Mrs Mike is a civil servant and was the lucky recipient of a 5% paycut four years ago with nothing since until this year when she got a 1% rise. Do I want to be part of the public sector? No chance!

Sorry for the tangent!
 
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#1 driver

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2 May 2013
Messages
136
Location
england , top right
the drivers manager at my depot is so overworked the only time you see him is when you go into his office to complain !
most assessments of driving are done by QTRON downloads .

as for being stressed during a manager rideout , the driver should be WAY better at driving than the manager . so relax and enjoy it . ask him some questions . point out some things you think should be changed ( signal sighting , methods of work , etc. )

you can make the job easier or harder , so make it easy .
 

TDK

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Crewe
most assessments of driving are done by QTRON downloads .

That is against group standards although I feel that an OTMR download is a much better method of assessment than a ride out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I enjoyed "single line working" and "working of a single line" but not forgetting good old TW week! ;)

Strangley enough I did SLW in the wrong direction for the first time in 13 years the other night, quite a distance as well. Just another day at the office as they say!
 

455driver

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10 May 2010
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11,329
That is against group standards although I feel that an OTMR download is a much better method of assessment than a ride out.
Our Managers do like to do a ride from the back/ intermediate cab on Desiros so they can see what sort of braking the driver is doing, the OTMR doesnt record exact PBC positions and they like to check if the driver is fanning the brake.

Strangley enough I did SLW in the wrong direction for the first time in 13 years the other night, quite a distance as well. Just another day at the office as they say!

First time in 13 years, blimey I did it 4 times during my hours, I did seem to drop for all sorts of funny stuff, good practise though and does test the route knowledge about point positions etc!

Only done it once since though and that was quite a short distance.

Best/ worst thing I have ever done is be talked past a red protecting the junction onto a single line, the signaller confirmed the points were locked and the flow indicator was correct etc but it still felt wrong!
 

Smiley1810

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2013
Messages
5
could somebody explain what a CBI assessment is please

It stands for Competency Based Interview. This means that the questions you will be asked directly relate to the competences of the role you are applying for. The interviewers will be wanting you to give specific evidence and examples when you answer the questions.
Typically, they might start a question with "Tell me about a time when you....."
 

st.ives

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9 Feb 2013
Messages
39
Location
Guess
Can I just confirm a couple of things?

The psychometric tests are the Concentration, Trainability, DFFT, Reactions and CBI. It is these that if you fail twice you can no longer apply for a train driver position. The managers interview is not part of this so can be failed many times.

The psychometric tests, once passed, can be used in an application for any TOC and are valid for three years.

Thanks.
 

TMLB UK

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10 May 2010
Messages
272
Location
UK
Can I just confirm a couple of things?

The psychometric tests are the Concentration, Trainability, DFFT, Reactions and CBI. It is these that if you fail twice you can no longer apply for a train driver position. The managers interview is not part of this so can be failed many times.

The psychometric tests, once passed, can be used in an application for any TOC and are valid for three years.

Thanks.

Spot on.... Although the validity of the pass can differ TOC to TOC (1-5years)

The tests are due to change later this year apparently and this means your two strikes may be reset.
 

fabdasilva

New Member
Joined
22 May 2013
Messages
4
iv just been invited to attend the first-stage assessment for the role of Trainee Train Driver with First Great Western, can anyone share any advice on whats expected? thanks
 

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