First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

I think that if the other big companies are interested in bits of First, they'll be interested in the profitable bits rather than the fire-sale stuff that's making losses or needs big investment.

It's a buyers market though - Stagecoach/ NatEx/ Arriva (etc) don't need to buy, but First do/did need to sell.

That was exactly my point, that I'm sure First Group will have received expressions of interest or even bids being tabled for the big profitable bits like Glasgow, Manchester, West Yorkshire etc knowing that First desperately needed to raise the £100 Million disposal target & avoid a rights issue. Possibly even more so once the Oft intervened with the Stagecoach acquisition of Barnstable & screwed it all up for First

 

[Ivo]

And even more so considering that roughly half of Britain's major urban areas have a prominent First presence in the area, many of which are derived from PTE operations and the others showing strong form (Leicester) and/or major domination (South Hampshire)...

...areas that are just ripe for the taking, and surely would have been had First needed to sell as badly as was once suggested.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not being shortlisted must have been a blow for both First and Stagecoach. Stagecoach have now indicated they intend to bid for the East Coast in partnership with Virgin (possibly in response?) Virgin had said they were intending to bid for a while but until now Stagecoach had been hesitant. That could mean some tough competition for First.

 

[Volvodart]

It looks like the de-regionalisation of First is going further than the South West and Wales, as they are now looking for a managing director for Greater Manchester.

 

[overthewater]

It looks like the de-regionalisation of First is going further than the South West and Wales, as they are now looking for a managing director for Greater Manchester.

First has stated this de-regionalisation WILL NOT affect the whole company and it will be done on a case by case.

 

[Aictos]

What happens with reference to de-regionalisation?

 

[winston270twm]

What happens with reference to de-regionalisation?

The power is being given back to local management teams to make certain decisions at local level rather than everything being decided at Aberdeen HQ

 

[swifty]

Basically in the case of South West & Wales, Justin Davies was the regional MD backed up by Marc Reddy as Commercial Director and other staff in various other regional roles. Where as now each area has its own MD and team in charge. Refer to http://omnibuses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/back-to-future.html

 

[Ivo]

Basically in the case of South West & Wales, Justin Davies was the regional MD backed up by Marc Reddy as Commercial Director and other staff in various other regional roles. Where as now each area has its own MD and team in charge. Refer to http://omnibuses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/back-to-future.html

It's important to note that some things are still done at regional level; most major roles have a local manager and a regional manager. But the local guys have more power than they used to.

 

[robertclark125]

Going back to Northampton, what's the nearest First depot to Northampton? I ask this as, it may, possibly be, that Northampton ends up an outstation of another depot. Unlikely, but possible. If that did happen, one way of keeping the staff on and eventually exiting Northampton.

 

[MK Tom]

That'd be Leicester... Don't think that very likely though.

 

[Ivo]

Too far and too large an area surely? I would be massively surprised if NN was to become anything other than either a memory or (less likely) owned by a different parent company now.

 

[robertclark125]

Before the merger of GRT and Badgerline (though some called it a GRT takeover of Badgerline), GRT bus group had these operations

Grampian (Aberdeen), Midland Bluebird, SMT (ex eastern scottish), Lowland, Eastern Counties, Northampton transport, Leicester Citybus.

Now, let's consider those same areas in 2013.

Northampton transport - Dying a slow death

Lowland - Now operating from one depot and two outstations

SMT - Dalkeith closed, lost a 2002 bus war with Lothian Buses, Edinburgh depot closed, Livingston suffering vehicle shortages at times.

Leicester Citybus - mainly the same operations, with some changes.

Midland Bluebird - Linlithgow depot closed, route 14 (joint with stagecoach Fife) axed, now operated as route 78 by stagecoach Fife, journeys on route 23 (St andrews - stirling) axed, whole service worked by stagecoach Fife, and from next month, F15 ges to Stagecoach Fife.

Eastern Counties - Bury st Edmunds depot shut, Kings Lynn to Norfolk Green.

Grampian - as the HQ of First, very little changes until recently, which has seen a slight reduction in First operations, and a slight increase in those of stagecoach.

Now, the areas that First has sold to Rotala and stagecoach were either bought by First, or were ex Badgerline group. Interesting isn't it that it's the ex GRT areas not being sold, but cut back.

 

[overthewater]

I think its even stranger that its all the GRT areas which are causing most of the problems within Firstbus nowadays.

 

[34D]

Going back to Northampton, what's the nearest First depot to Northampton? I ask this as, it may, possibly be, that Northampton ends up an outstation of another depot. Unlikely, but possible. If that did happen, one way of keeping the staff on and eventually exiting Northampton.

That'd be Leicester... Don't think that very likely though.

With the 'car park' at Luton Airport a close second? Can someone remind me which bit of First the Luton airport bendies fit in with please?

 

[tbtc]

Before the merger of GRT and Badgerline (though some called it a GRT takeover of Badgerline), GRT bus group had these operations

Grampian (Aberdeen), Midland Bluebird, SMT (ex eastern scottish), Lowland, Eastern Counties, Northampton transport, Leicester Citybus.

Now, let's consider those same areas in 2013.

Northampton transport - Dying a slow death

Lowland - Now operating from one depot and two outstations

SMT - Dalkeith closed, lost a 2002 bus war with Lothian Buses, Edinburgh depot closed, Livingston suffering vehicle shortages at times.

Leicester Citybus - mainly the same operations, with some changes.

Midland Bluebird - Linlithgow depot closed, route 14 (joint with stagecoach Fife) axed, now operated as route 78 by stagecoach Fife, journeys on route 23 (St andrews - stirling) axed, whole service worked by stagecoach Fife, and from next month, F15 ges to Stagecoach Fife.

Eastern Counties - Bury st Edmunds depot shut, Kings Lynn to Norfolk Green.

Grampian - as the HQ of First, very little changes until recently, which has seen a slight reduction in First operations, and a slight increase in those of stagecoach.

Now, the areas that First has sold to Rotala and stagecoach were either bought by First, or were ex Badgerline group. Interesting isn't it that it's the ex GRT areas not being sold, but cut back.

That's very interesting - I'd not thought of the Badgerline/ GRT "split" like this, but you are right - the old Badgerline areas like Yorkshire Rider seem to be the ones that were looked after better.

 

[Ivo]

Can someone remind me which bit of First the Luton airport bendies fit in with please?

Bath

Well, until 2010, when the airport stole them.

 

[winston270twm]

Some of the few Volvo B7RLE/Wright Eclipse that First Group have ordered this year appear to be destined for First West Yorkshire

http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/HeyshamDocks/First-Group/28199298_xDfKFr#!i=2605943309&k=357Ltgf

 

[Deerfold]

That's very interesting - I'd not thought of the Badgerline/ GRT "split" like this, but you are right - the old Badgerline areas like Yorkshire Rider seem to be the ones that were looked after better.

If they're the ones which have been looked after better then I think First may be doomed (based on many years of regular and occasional use of buses in and around Halifax and Bradford)!

 

[winston270twm]

A few positives for First Group:

Rail Franchise pre-qualification:
http://www.4-traders.com/FIRSTGROUP...onian-Sleeper-franchise-competition-17062556/

First Group America:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...racts-across-the-united-states-213830001.html

 

[tbtc]

If they're the ones which have been looked after better then I think First may be doomed (based on many years of regular and occasional use of buses in and around Halifax and Bradford)!

I remember when Bradford was the flagship operation for First - the second Overground (after Glasgow) - it had a huge investment around 2001 (?).

"Cursed Folderline", on the other hand, have gone backwards.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I remember when Bradford was the flagship operation for First - the second Overground (after Glasgow) - it had a huge investment around 2001 (?).

"Cursed Folderline", on the other hand, have gone backwards.

West Yorkshire will undoubtedly see a lot of new investment (in fact, it already has) with new kit going into Huddersfield following Leeds new deckers last year.

They'll be cascades, of course, but also the same sort of year on year investment that many of the subsidiaries need, and especially with the large numbers of early Dart SLFs and the B10BLE/Scania L94s across the group from 1998-2000. Sure Halifax and Todmorden will be seeing some new stuff, next year probably.

 

[MK Tom]

Apologies for not being 100% on topic although this does kind of show First are investing in Berkshire, but I think they've hit an all-time low livery wise:

http://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/First LT52WXA r 71 Slough 230513 G Francis.jpg

Picture is from the Oxford and Chiltern Bus Page.

 

[Deerfold]

Apologies for not being 100% on topic although this does kind of show First are investing in Berkshire, but I think they've hit an all-time low livery wise:

http://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/First LT52WXA r 71 Slough 230513 G Francis.jpg

Picture is from the Oxford and Chiltern Bus Page.

Wow.
That's an old livery.
I didn't think they'd painted anything new into it for years.

 

[F Great Eastern]

To add another twist to the future of the Irish operations, FirstGroup have been shortlisted for the Dublin LUAS light rail operators contract which is currently held by Transdev.

http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/latest_news/?id=009501
&
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/shortlist-of-bidders-to-run-luas-services-announced/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wow.
That's an old livery.
I didn't think they'd painted anything new into it for years.

This was extensively covered on the Omnibuses Blog recently.

It's a variation on the old BeeLine livery (which was a bit more swoopy) from the late 1990s that disappeared in about 2002. They're bringing it back on 3 routes (155/171/172) using the Citaros displaced off the Heathrow services; BeeLine was seen as quite memorable in the area!

 

[MK Tom]

Wow.
That's an old livery.
I didn't think they'd painted anything new into it for years.

If you look closely it's the new First livery too, just with the Beeline colours.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Apologies for not being 100% on topic although this does kind of show First are investing in Berkshire, but I think they've hit an all-time low livery wise:
.

All time low..... it's always a subjective thing but look at Barbie 2 with the fade out vinyls. That was worse!

Could be a whole thread of its own (worst bus livery of all time) but the all dark red Midland Red North livery takes some beating for dullness. Or perhaps the MK Citybus minibus livery c.1987 that someone compared to the colour of a 1950's fridge!!!

 

[CatfordCat]

This was extensively covered on the Omnibuses Blog recently.

It's a variation on the old BeeLine livery (which was a bit more swoopy) from the late 1990s that disappeared in about 2002. They're bringing it back on 3 routes (155/171/172) using the Citaros displaced off the Heathrow services; BeeLine was seen as quite memorable in the area!

It may be a pure coincidence, but this seemed to arise when local independent Courtney decided to register commercially on the 171/172 circuit using yellow / green buses. Image can be seen if you select the 171/2 timetable from this page (can't link direct to the timetable)

 

[Deerfold]

It may be a pure coincidence, but this seemed to arise when local independent Courtney decided to register commercially on the 171/172 circuit using yellow / green buses. Image can be seen if you select the 171/2 timetable from this page (can't link direct to the timetable)

Direct link is here

I thought the First Beeline livery looked tired and worn in 2001 when I moved to the South Bucks area - but perhaps that was just the buses.

It's the only area I've ever lived in where I wasn't a regular user of the buses.