Special needs children denied free first class upgrades

[WelshBluebird]

After fair warning yes although I should make it clear I am in no way rail staff and would not know if it was allowed. I'm not sure how far byelaw 6(8) goes

If you are using bylaws then it would apply regardless of what class they were in. You can't just say "oh we are in first class, so we don't have to deal with that".

I get annoyed and frustrated at having a loud child (or indeed teenager or adult!) next to or near me on the train. But you deal with it. It is public transport and so you have to deal with the public!

 

[Manchester77]

Oh dear the daily record story had this comment

Please add your signature to this Petition :

change.org/en-GB/petitions/alex-salmond-first-minister-of-scotland-investigate-discrimination-by-cross-country-train-services

Nothing will be DONE by Cross Country Rail , WITHOUT your HELP !

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...discrimination-by-cross-country-train-service

Someone's actually made this petition! Ok if you believe the story then it'll be shocking but surely that's a bit of an overreaction.

 

[jon0844]

People want to believe it is true, without even asking basic questions about the story or the circumstances.

If it had been a group of teenagers, or even a group of young adults that would fit the 'up to no good' stereotype (how about them being football supporters?), there wouldn't have been a story. If a TM was then reported as being rude, s/he would probably get support as these people had no right to get a free upgrade to first class.

But of course, even then, we wouldn't have a clue as to what actually happened without there being independent witnesses.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I have refrained from commenting till now as wanted to chat to a coleeg who uses this route regularly. As luck would have it she was onboard and did indeed witness
an
incident. ↲first was not declassified. A cupple of famillies with v young kids and elderly frail members were allowed to sit there. this group requested to do so too but the TM said it was not possible but with no reason. The group leaders rapidly lost there tempers and shouted at the TM Hense the threat of removal from the service.

↲2 things have crossed my mind - I wonder if the TM in question is one well known to us up here who is very abrupt in her manner and once tried to refuse myself travel on the basis blind people cant stand on a moving train. If so, then nothing will surprise me where she is concerned.↲ the other thing which is a bit Off Topic is how long will XC continue to accept offpeek and discounted tickets on this route at peek times if loads like this are being carried? Its v popular with locals but still services arnt over busy. The only one that comes near to standing that Iv witnessed is the 17:12 xEDB.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have refrained from commenting till now as wanted to chat to a coleeg who uses this route regularly. As luck would have it she was onboard and did indeed witness
an
incident. ↲first was not declassified. A cupple of famillies with v young kids and elderly frail members were allowed to sit there. this group requested to do so too but the TM said it was not possible but with no reason. The group leaders rapidly lost there tempers and shouted at the TM Hense the threat of removal from the service.

↲2 things have crossed my mind - I wonder if the TM in question is one well known to us up here who is very abrupt in her manner and once tried to refuse myself travel on the basis blind people cant stand on a moving train. If so, then nothing will surprise me where she is concerned.↲ the other thing which is a bit Off Topic is how long will XC continue to accept offpeek and discounted tickets on this route at peek times if loads like this are being carried? Its v popular with locals but still services arnt over busy. The only one that comes near to standing that Iv witnessed is the 17:12 xEDB.

If true (and i have no reason to believe you are not) i suggest your friend contacts cross country directly to give that version of events.

To me that says they were refused entry to First Class and at no point was there any discrimination.
I do hope they haven't made up that the guard said ‘do not need the likes of your children spoiling their journey’... Because that is quite an accusation to make if indeed it did not happen.

 

[Oswyntail]

....first was not declassified. A cupple of famillies with v young kids and elderly frail members were allowed to sit there. this group requested to do so too but the TM said it was not possible but with no reason. The group leaders rapidly lost there tempers and shouted at the TM Hense the threat of removal from the service.

↲2 things have crossed my mind - I wonder if the TM in question is one well known to us up here who is very abrupt in her manner and once tried to refuse myself travel on the basis blind people cant stand on a moving train. If so, then nothing will surprise me where she is concerned.......

This sounds possibly consistent with the original story. The real critical point - about which no one has reported, and which we do not know here - is the nature of the "special needs". In my experience, some such needs in a group would put them on a par with "v young kids and elderly frail", and would make the request reasonable. If the TM greeted the request with the subtlety depicted, then I can see a care assistant losing her rag, justifiably. However, "special needs" can be used to describe anything from mild dyslexia to cerebral palsy, and until anyone clarifies what is meant we remain in the dark.

 

[YorkshireBear]

This sounds possibly consistent with the original story. The real critical point - about which no one has reported, and which we do not know here - is the nature of the "special needs". In my experience, some such needs in a group would put them on a par with "v young kids and elderly frail", and would make the request reasonable. If the TM greeted the request with the subtlety depicted, then I can see a care assistant losing her rag, justifiably. However, "special needs" can be used to describe anything from mild dyslexia to cerebral palsy, and until anyone clarifies what is meant we remain in the dark.

One had one leg that is the only confirmed one.

 

[yorkie]

A cupple of famillies with v young kids and elderly frail members were allowed to sit there. this group requested to do so too ...

We're a bit closer to working this out then! Any idea roughly how many seats may have been free by the time those passengers were allowed to sit there? There's not a lot of seats in 1st class on a Voyager, and it's unlikely that there would have been many together.

Still several remaining questions though, such as the ticketing arrangements of the group, whether or not any attempt was made to make reservations etc.

 

[ModernRailways]

Another thing that I find odd, is that with XC you can reserve seats right up to the last minute (most of the time/if it's working) so they could have easily went into the ticket office and asked for seat reservations if they needed seats so badly.

 

[Blindtraveler]

As a bit of background, the theatre group in puestion have a good reputation for providing opportunitties to kids of many abilitties so it is likely some of them will have been more able than others.↲

another point is that is the TM on this service is indeed the one I have had dealings with then at the time I contacted XC requesting she was given training in disabilitty equalitty/awareness as although she did eventually let me remain on the train, I was treated with all the respect one would give an unexploded bonb - ↲
the exact opposite of 99 percent of my other dealings with all levels of rail staff which are very positive and shows the industry up for all the right reasons. I would hope that after a year, training would have been given to this staff member and perhaps for fareness her coleegs too? If this has not been done then my already limmited respect for XC is reduced to a big fat 0 - a shame really as quite a few of there staff working out of Edinburgh or Glasgow are old hands at the job and are very likeable, not to mention capable and very under valued by there management↲

 

[Blindtraveler]

On most of the Edinburgh>Motherwell>Glasgow trains seats are not a problem although reservations can be made. first is as a rule very quiet as unlike standard the difference in price even at busy times is very small and as theres no catering and often no Wifi the advantage over a Scotrail service↲ is not great. I am led to believe first was round half full.

 

[Blindtraveler]

On most of the Edinburgh>Motherwell>Glasgow trains seats are not a problem although reservations can be made. first is as a rule very quiet as unlike standard the difference in price even at busy times is very small and as theres no catering and often no Wifi the advantage over a Scotrail service↲ is not great. I am led to believe first was round half full.↲↲↲

 

[jon0844]

How can you be sure it's the same person?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

 

[Blindtraveler]

How can you be sure it's the same person?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

I cant, aut bits of it fit so purely speculating, not to mention hoping it isnt

 

[AndyLandy]

It appears the basis of this discrimination is that these disabled types might upset the tender sensibilities of the normal population or ruin the ambiance of the carriage. I thought we, as a society, had grown out of these attitudes.

That depends on what you understand First Class to be for. There are almost certainly rich 'toffs' out there who believe they're paying for some level of 'exclusivity' so they don't have to sit with us 'plebs'. Not that this condones the behaviour implied above, but as long as those people exist, those attitudes will continue to exist with them.

 

[Searle]

Another thing that I find odd, is that with XC you can reserve seats right up to the last minute (most of the time/if it's working) so they could have easily went into the ticket office and asked for seat reservations if they needed seats so badly.

I would be surprised if they knew this, I certainly didn't! I can't imagine it would have gone very well either, trying to reserve 10 seats, all together on a peak time XC voyager. Would be surprised if they could find 10 seats in the same coach!

 

[ModernRailways]

I would be surprised if they knew this, I certainly didn't! I can't imagine it would have gone very well either, trying to reserve 10 seats, all together on a peak time XC voyager. Would be surprised if they could find 10 seats in the same coach!

True, but if they needed seats so badly surely enquiring about it at the ticket office would have been better than getting on board and making their mouths go?

 

[SS4]

True, but if they needed seats so badly surely enquiring about it at the ticket office would have been better than getting on board and making their mouths go?

It's certainly possible. I can't think of many reasons why they'd not get reservations for such a large group

 

[WestCoast]

They were discriminated against because they didn't have first class tickets. People are discriminated like that every day.

Indeed, price discrimination between non-identical products. That's simply capitalism, which is of course lawful!

 

[HST Power]

Children are loud and it would not be fair on the paying First passengers to have their journey spoiled

How would you classify me? I am not a child but I am a young person and I go First Class all the time. And you should see some of the looks I get when I board the First Class carriages! Even though I'm wearing a suit or some sort of formal outfit most of the time I go by rail, I get plenty of 'looks' to say the least, and I see people shaking their heads, clearly thinking to themselves 'how dare he sit in these carriages, of course he hasn't paid the First Class fare!'

I agree with what you said in the rest of your post, just pointing this bit out.

 

[SS4]

How would you classify me? I am not a child but I am a young person and I go First Class all the time. And you should see some of the looks I get when I board the First Class carriages! Even though I'm wearing a suit or some sort of formal outfit most of the time I go by rail, I get plenty of 'looks' to say the least, and I see people shaking their heads, clearly thinking to themselves 'how dare he sit in these carriages, of course he hasn't paid the First Class fare!'

I agree with what you said in the rest of your post, just pointing this bit out.

I get those looks as well, it doesn't help that I'm physically incapable of looking smart. For you I would say you're an adult. Really with that comment I meant kids younger than 10 or 11, who may not realise the volume they're speaking at. Of course there are exceptions to every rule and I've been proven wrong on occasion too

 

[callum9999]

How would you classify me? I am not a child but I am a young person and I go First Class all the time. And you should see some of the looks I get when I board the First Class carriages! Even though I'm wearing a suit or some sort of formal outfit most of the time I go by rail, I get plenty of 'looks' to say the least, and I see people shaking their heads, clearly thinking to themselves 'how dare he sit in these carriages, of course he hasn't paid the First Class fare!'

I agree with what you said in the rest of your post, just pointing this bit out.

Though of course, unless they actually say something you have no way of actually knowing what they are thinking! I'm not saying you're making it up - but you could just be jumping to conclusions. Someone I know is constantly thinking anyone who so much as glances at them or dares to speak to someone else in her vicinity is gossiping about them etc.!

And I can't speak for them, but when I've seen people phrase their posts like that I've been assuming they are just generalising school groups - not every single child! I see children on trains who are (reasonably) quiet and well-behaved all the time but I rarely see groups of 10+ children doing the same. In fact, the last group I saw got kicked off the train and then started kicking and punching the windows/doors as it pulled away!

 

[broadgage]

the article states that some of the children were as young as 4, what chance is they that they paid for the under 5s as if not they are less entitled to seats to other passengers!

A good point !
Owners of young children who travel free seem to expect a right to a seat for the child, and expect fare payers to stand in order that non fare payers can sit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Another thing that I find odd, is that with XC you can reserve seats right up to the last minute (most of the time/if it's working) so they could have easily went into the ticket office and asked for seat reservations if they needed seats so badly.

Dont you have to hold a ticket to reserve a seat ? If some were under 5 and therfore not holding tickets, preesumably they could not reserve seats ?

 

[ModernRailways]

Dont you have to hold a ticket to reserve a seat ? If some were under 5 and therfore not holding tickets, preesumably they could not reserve seats ?

Not in my experience. I reserved multiple seats for a few days when I was unsure of the date of travel. Bought the actual ticket on the day. It may have been a one off occasion though.

 

[nathanclass323]

A good point !
Owners of young children...

Owners of young children... What are they called again?

 

[MCW]

Owners! LOL
slightly OT but I did see a lady with two kids In her trolley whilst shopping and i said 'fi they still sell children here?'

 

[Deerfold]

A good point !
Owners of young children who travel free seem to expect a right to a seat for the child, and expect fare payers to stand in order that non fare payers can sit.

I was on the tube a couple of weeks ago when a large party of mostly young children boarded. I thought they were quite cheeky as the adults went along the carriage asking people to stand so the children could sit. There was no suggestion that they were not able bodied.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Has this thread been renamed? I seem to recall the title previously mentioning a declassified first class carriage, rather than free upgrades.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A good point !
Owners of young children who travel free seem to expect a right to a seat for the child, and expect fare payers to stand in order that non fare payers can sit.

The amount of fare paid has nothing to do with entitlement to a seat (unless an alternative ticketing arrangement is offered with the agreement that a seat will not be taken, like in many staff/police free travel agreements). Unreserved seats are first-come-first-served. It is common courtesy, but not mandatory, to offer your seat to somebody who needs it more than you, and I would not say that it is rude, if you need a seat more than anyone else, to ask politely for one to be vacated for you (or persons you "own"), as long as you do not mind if the answer is no. You have paid to be conveyed to your destination, not to be seated.

 

[yorkie]

Yes it has, as it wasn't declassified according to a friend of a forum member who was on the train. Also if it was declassified anyone could have entered so it wouldn't have made sense.

 

[MCW]

Yes it has, as it wasn't declassified according to a friend of a forum member who was on the train. Also if it was declassified anyone could have entered so it wouldn't have made sense.

and the topic title has been changed which I assume was either yorself or one of the Moderator blokes and I was going to change it tonight. :P

Shall we just wait and see if anything else appears in he media about it?