Special needs children denied free first class upgrades

[Ironside]

Or their is the possibility that the family that did move to first class paid for the privilege, as the first class was not declassified.

 

[nathanclass323]

If a train was EXTREMELY packed and I was the TM, I'm not sure I'd give free first upgrades in all fairness. Maybe discounted towards the end of the journey but if you give free upgrades, the people who have paid will be less than impressed.

 

[Qwerty133]

the article states that some of the children were as young as 4, what chance is they that they paid for the under 5s as if not they are less entitled to seats to other passengers!

 

[jon0844]

Why couldn't the group be split up if needed, rather than hoping for room for all of them in one place?

I saw school groups on trains (and tubes) regularly and they can't all be together. And there are enough adults with them, so they won't be left alone.

If there weren't enough adults, I'd be wondering why not as they'd have a duty of care both on and off the train.

 

[scotraildriver]

Given the number of people who videoed the "big man" incident and others, I'm surprised that if the train manager was acting in this way people didn't film it as seems to be normal these days.

 

[SS4]

This is hilarious, if the article as printed is more than 10% accurate I will eat my hat.

• Was there any way of knowing the children had a disability? Something tells me this did not crop up in the original conversation.
  
• If they are disabled is 2 adults for 10 kids enough supervision? If one has to go the toilet that 1 adult to 9 kids.
  
• Even so, would it make a difference? They got the genuine XC experience
  
• Repeated polite requests are impossible, you can only be polite once, after that you are annoying and distracting regardless of how nice your words are. Anyone recall how annoying the polite phrase are we there yet? gets after it's said a while?
  
• Children are loud and it would not be fair on the paying First passengers to have their journey spoiled
  
• Someone sitting behind their computer screen reading a hilariously one-sided article calls for a disproportionate response.

Sadly though XC will cough up some form of compensation because it's ok to throw your staff under the bus for PR these days even though XC is possibly the only TOC that can afford to lose the custom.

For those who thought the TM said the wrong thing I bet you'd have given a round of applause had the kids been older.

tl;dr - the TM did her job and because the whiny customer didn't get their way they've embellished the facts of the matter, invented some extra details and gone crying to the media to get unfair and undeserved compensation. The action is despicable - but not the TM's.

 

[AndrewP]

Whatever actually happened here (and the truth may never become apparent) one thing I have noticed is that there is a general assumption that families do not travel first. This is not true and happens with my family on a fairly regular basis.

 

[yorkie]

the article states that some of the children were as young as 4, what chance is they that they paid for the under 5s as if not they are less entitled to seats to other passengers!

That's an interesting question. If anyone takes a 4 year old on a train and requires a seat, they should purchase a ticket for them, and also reserve a seat (if applicable). There's no evidence either way to suggest they did, or didn't, purchase a ticket, but it sounds like either they didn't obtain reservations or, possibly, their travel plans changed and they caught a different train.

Perhaps someone could call them up to clarify, because all these factors could make a huge difference. Without all this knowledge, the situation cannot really be 'judged' fairly.

 

[DarloRich]

Whilst I agree the article will, most probably be a gross exaggeration of the facts I do find it concerning that people on this site consider that what, prima facie, appears to be discrimination against one group of people should be acceptable or justified. It appears the basis of this discrimination is that these disabled types might upset the tender sensibilities of the normal population or ruin the ambiance of the carriage. I thought we, as a society, had grown out of these attitudes.

IF, and as I said it is a BIG if, there is any truth to this story it is a sad situation and at the very least shows that some railway staff need better training in dealing with disabled passengers. If there is a case of proven discrimination then I am afraid more serious action is required.

It would not be acceptable to refuse a black man travel on the basis of him being black. Why should it be accept bale to prevent a disabled man from travelling on the basis that he is disabled?

 

[AndrewP]

That's an interesting question. If anyone takes a 4 year old on a train and requires a seat, they should purchase a ticket for them, and also reserve a seat (if applicable)

That's what we used to do it was easier that way and we were lucky enough to be able to afford it. Still got asked to move them even though there was a clear reservation.

 

[CC 72100]

This is hilarious, if the article as printed is more than 10% accurate I will eat my hat.

• Was there any way of knowing the children had a disability? Something tells me this did not crop up in the original conversation.
  
• If they are disabled is 2 adults for 10 kids enough supervision? If one has to go the toilet that 1 adult to 9 kids.
  
• Even so, would it make a difference? They got the genuine XC experience
  
• Repeated polite requests are impossible, you can only be polite once, after that you are annoying and distracting regardless of how nice your words are. Anyone recall how annoying the polite phrase are we there yet? gets after it's said a while?
  
• Children are loud and it would not be fair on the paying First passengers to have their journey spoiled
  
• Someone sitting behind their computer screen reading a hilariously one-sided article calls for a disproportionate response.

Can't help but agree with this. I can't see anyone in public-facing employment turning round and saying what is alleged to a group of people, and of course if (big if) it is true then the should face the consequences.

As another poster has pointed out, school parties are not going to come very high on the 'we need to upgrade somebody' list. I've travelled as part of a school party before on foreign trips (flying and on boat) and can imagine that we were an absolutely nightmare for those around us. A priority to help to find a suitable place for them - perhaps, but for upgrade to first? no.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would not be acceptable to refuse a black man travel on the basis of him being black. Why should it be accept bale to prevent a disabled man from travelling on the basis that he is disabled?

But that wasn't the case here... I'm struggling to see your point.

 

[jon0844]

Their disability surely doesn't matter one bit here, and has no relevance to the story. They didn't have first class tickets, so young, old, black, white, able bodied or not, they weren't entitled to be there.

I suspect that any group would be refused and that's what happened here. Tell most people that and they'd agree, so adding the disabled bit is to make people suddenly go 'OMG, that's so outrageous!' and get to vent the usual jobsworth/little Hitler rants. As time goes in, the story snowballs to the point where we have to believe the TM was probably ridiculing the poor kids.

If there's an argument for them being in FC to guarantee being able to sit, the adults could have bought FC tickets. Problem solved. Is there any suggestion that they'd have been refused even then? That would then be a story.

I agree that what was allegedly said was totally inappropriate but that's only if it was actually said. I can't say it wasn't said but this story rings alarm bells and I definitely think we'd have had a video on YT by now too.

 

[yorkie]

DarloRich - I agree that if the words that were alleged to have been said were used, then it's unacceptable behaviour. I'd be interested to hear more about some key facts though.

As for the TM threatening to chuck them off, that sounds unbelievable, but then I know an XC TM did exactly that to some passengers 300 miles from home, late at night, at an unstaffed station, recently! So it does happen.

So I am prepared to believe them in respect of that threat, but I am keeping an open mind about this as there are a lot of 'missing pieces' that, if explained, would give a much clearer picture.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...this story rings alarm bells ....

Agreed.

It's quite possible the TM acted entirely correctly, but said something inappropriate, which could then have been exaggerated. We just don't know - until more facts come to light (which may never happen).

 

[Antman]

This is hilarious, if the article as printed is more than 10% accurate I will eat my hat.

• Was there any way of knowing the children had a disability? Something tells me this did not crop up in the original conversation.
  
• If they are disabled is 2 adults for 10 kids enough supervision? If one has to go the toilet that 1 adult to 9 kids.
  
• Even so, would it make a difference? They got the genuine XC experience
  
• Repeated polite requests are impossible, you can only be polite once, after that you are annoying and distracting regardless of how nice your words are. Anyone recall how annoying the polite phrase are we there yet? gets after it's said a while?
  
• Children are loud and it would not be fair on the paying First passengers to have their journey spoiled
  
• Someone sitting behind their computer screen reading a hilariously one-sided article calls for a disproportionate response.

Sadly though XC will cough up some form of compensation because it's ok to throw your staff under the bus for PR these days even though XC is possibly the only TOC that can afford to lose the custom.

For those who thought the TM said the wrong thing I bet you'd have given a round of applause had the kids been older.

tl;dr - the TM did her job and because the whiny customer didn't get their way they've embellished the facts of the matter, invented some extra details and gone crying to the media to get unfair and undeserved compensation. The action is despicable - but not the TM's.

I agree and forgive my cynical attitude but I can't help thinking 'compo' is what this is all about. There are people on here jumping to the conclusion that these kids are disabled. I have a four year old grandson who (according to my daughter and her partner) falls into the special needs catogry. He is certainly not disabled and as far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with him at all, his bad behaviour is a result of their bad parenting and yes I've had several arguments with my daughter about it.

 

[Marvin]

It appears the basis of this discrimination is that these disabled types might upset the tender sensibilities of the normal population or ruin the ambiance of the carriage.

More like a large school party would do so. I mean, what's the point of paying extra for First if you have to put up with a bunch of screaming brats anyway?

 

[Johnny_w]

Just a quick thought, and I agree with the above comments regarding the likelihood of the story.

However..... What hope has the guard/TM of defending themselves?

Seems like she is in for it as tried & convicted in the court of public opinion?

JW.

 

[Cheds]

As possibly the only poster on here who is a special needs child, I, or rather my Dad, will make a comment....

First off, our usual TOC is Virgin, and their staff, and staff at Carlisle station, are consistently pleasant and helpful and give us just a little extra time when needed or to have a quick word.

Second, we make seat reservations simply because I'm special needs and I'm surprised that a special needs GROUP apparently didn't do this. Just because you're special needs doesn't mean you can't help yourself a bit.

Third, if these kids were refused access to first class BECAUSE they were special needs then the TM and indeed the TOC are rightly in deep doodoo.

Almost everything else is conjecture

cheers

Cheds

 

[Antman]

More like a large school party would do so. I mean, what's the point of paying extra for First if you have to put up with a bunch of screaming brats anyway?

Exactly, would those who've paid for first class and the peace and quiet that comes with it be entitled to some sort of refund in such circumstances?

 

[Geezertronic]

I can see it getting to the stage where the employees request that they be provided with and wear a video recording device so interactions with customers/passengers could be videoed. This would be done for the protection of customer/passenger and employee and is absolute in the evidence it provides about who said what during any questionable scenario

 

[Antman]

As possibly the only poster on here who is a special needs child, I, or rather my Dad, will make a comment....

First off, our usual TOC is Virgin, and their staff, and staff at Carlisle station, are consistently pleasant and helpful and give us just a little extra time when needed or to have a quick word.

Second, we make seat reservations simply because I'm special needs and I'm surprised that a special needs GROUP apparently didn't do this. Just because you're special needs doesn't mean you can't help yourself a bit.

Third, if these kids were refused access to first class BECAUSE they were special needs then the TM and indeed the TOC are rightly in deep doodoo.

Almost everything else is conjecture

cheers

Cheds

Well surely they were refused access to first class purely and simply because they didn't have first class tickets?

 

[flymo]

Some more info from the Daily Record. Same basic story as the OP but with another photo.

Rail workers refuse to let special needs children sit in business class.. claiming they would spoil journey of other passengers.......

<SNIP>

......... A spokesman for CrossCountry said: “We are sorry to learn of the circumstances of the Stage Right Theatre School on their recent journey.

“We expect our staff to be polite and helpful at all times and it is extremely disappointing if their behaviour was as described. We will investigate the circumstances as a matter of urgency and will be in touch with them as soon as this is completed.

“We would like to offer our sincere apologies to Rebekah, Elaine and all the children for the poor quality of their journey back to Motherwell.”

 

[YorkshireBear]

As possibly the only poster on here who is a special needs child, I, or rather my Dad, will make a comment....

First off, our usual TOC is Virgin, and their staff, and staff at Carlisle station, are consistently pleasant and helpful and give us just a little extra time when needed or to have a quick word.

Second, we make seat reservations simply because I'm special needs and I'm surprised that a special needs GROUP apparently didn't do this. Just because you're special needs doesn't mean you can't help yourself a bit.

Third, if these kids were refused access to first class BECAUSE they were special needs then the TM and indeed the TOC are rightly in deep doodoo.

Almost everything else is conjecture

cheers

Cheds

What about if they were refused as kids simply because they were kids and he ignored whether they were special needs or not?


Also what are these special needs, because some of them would not make the kids require a seat more than the next person. (not saying it isnt a condition, but some conditions wouldnt affect this situation at all)

 

[Cheds]

If some people were allowed a free upgrade, and those with special needs weren't and the reason for this was BECAUSE they were special needs then that is indeed a problem for the TOC because simply it would be unlawful.

Note the word IF at the start of the sentence...

 

[Antman]

Some more info from the Daily Record. Same basic story as the OP but with another photo.

This sounds more and more like a 'sob story'.

Why did they have to sit outside the trains toilets?

It is unfortunate that anybody should have to stand between Edinburgh and Motherwell but such is life.......!

 

[jon0844]

I can see it getting to the stage where the employees request that they be provided with and wear a video recording device so interactions with customers/passengers could be videoed. This would be done for the protection of customer/passenger and employee and is absolute in the evidence it provides about who said what during any questionable scenario

c2c have some staff wearing cameras, so I guess it's not impossible to see this extended first to RPIs and then TMs. Such is life, and the fact that so many people do nasty things then later act all innocent and even lie to turn the tables on those in authority.

 

[WelshBluebird]

More like a large school party would do so. I mean, what's the point of paying extra for First if you have to put up with a bunch of screaming brats anyway?

[*]Children are loud and it would not be fair on the paying First passengers to have their journey spoiled

So what if "a bunch of screaming brats" had paid for tickets for first class? Would you still kick them out because they were loud? As far as I am aware there is no "code of behavior" for first class that is any different to standard class. Doesn't matter if they are loud, or annoying, or whatever.

Now, I also have doubts about how legit this story is. But to be blunt, some of the attitudes some people on here have displayed are downright disgusting. Paying for first class does not make you any better than a "screaming brat". And if first class is declassified (which I agree there is a question mark about in this case), and some "screaming brats" do end up sitting next to you, then tough! It is what the rest of us normally have to deal with anyway.

 

[SS4]

So what if "a bunch of screaming brats" had paid for tickets for first class? Would you still kick them out because they were loud? As far as I am aware there is no "code of behavior" for first class that is any different to standard class. Doesn't matter if they are loud, or annoying, or whatever.

After fair warning yes although I should make it clear I am in no way rail staff and would not know if it was allowed. I'm not sure how far byelaw 6(8) goes

 

[AndrewP]

Paying for first class does not make you any better than a "screaming brat". And if first class is declassified (which I agree there is a question mark about in this case), and some "screaming brats" do end up sitting next to you, then tough! It is what the rest of us normally have to deal with anyway.

Well said.

It can be horrible next to a screaming brat - even when its one of your own - but sometimes there is nothing you can do.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They are claiming they were discriminated against because of special needs but i wouldn't give a free upgrade to two adults and 10 children... Regardless of almost everything...

 

[jon0844]

They were discriminated against because they didn't have first class tickets. People are discriminated like that every day.

Try sitting in Upper Class on a Virgin plane when you have an economy ticket, or going into a box at your local football ground with a standard ticket.

If said person turned away happens to have some sort of disability, it is irrelevant.

The only worrying discrimination is when you have got a Upper Class ticket or access to a box and still get turned away.