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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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Geezertronic

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No it's not. Nobody knows the correct end figure, it's already gone up since Labour agreed to it, and could/will increase as it advances.

The figure only goes up the more appeasement measures are put into place for the NIMBYs



London-centric tosh. These improvements only exist in the commuter glory world of London and the South. No such advances in the North (as ever).

Again you are forgetting about the decreased journey times between northern destinations and London



Selling HS2 as a means to travel in luxury is all very well were the entire nation at the same point. It's not.

So HS2 cannot improve on what already exists? Why not?



As admitted on this forum, WCML is only just approaching something close to capacity in two parts of the country. HS2 won't necessarily solve this.

Of course it will, you are just too blinkered to see it


Damn right we do. Spend the same amount of money in the North as on HS2, and you get a better all round transport system.

Because no money is being spent on rail in the north?


No proof. And it will ignore dozens of towns and cities who have no HS2 station despite the line going past them.

What is the point of HS if it stops t every town and city along the route?


Improvements in signalling and timetabling can go a long way to solve this.

And these are already being done on the WCML but will never provide the same amount of capacity as the new line will, as you already know...


It's not about make-do-and-mend. Focused resources and better use of spending has always shown better results.

The WCML is already getting more improvements but these do not solve the long term issue of capacity, again as you know...
 
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Improvements in signalling and timetabling can go a long way to solve this.



It's not about make-do-and-mend. Focused resources and better use of spending has always shown better results.

Yet after a week since you made these claims you have yet to name one scheme or how improving signalling on the WCML that will deliver the same capacity upgrades as HS2
 

WatcherZero

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HS2 is to my understanding a national project (without any Barnett consequential) thus presumably any part of HS2 in Scotland would still be paid for by Westminster. Unless they give the Scottish Exec their 10% of the costs in England which can be used to pay for Edinburgh/Glasgow-Gretna?

They are planning to finance it through the existing Dft budget, the £2bn per year currently spent on Crossrail would be shifted over. As Scotland already recieves its share of Transport spending and its not a net increase in transport spending in England it shouldnt trigger the Barnett formula.
 

AndyLandy

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And it will ignore dozens of towns and cities who have no HS2 station despite the line going past them.

How does the proposed HS2 alignment compare to the current WCML and Chiltern lines? Am I right in understanding that it'll run somewhere between the two?

What's the distance between the existing two lines likes? Is there anywhere between those two lines that isn't located within reasonable distance of a station on one or other of those lines?

I don't see where there'd be any benefit in adding any intermediate stations on HS2, even if we were building it as a commuter railway.
 

PR1Berske

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How does the proposed HS2 alignment compare to the current WCML and Chiltern lines? Am I right in understanding that it'll run somewhere between the two?

What's the distance between the existing two lines likes? Is there anywhere between those two lines that isn't located within reasonable distance of a station on one or other of those lines?

I don't see where there'd be any benefit in adding any intermediate stations on HS2, even if we were building it as a commuter railway.

If HS2 has to be built, how distasteful is it for people in towns and cities across its route not to be able to use it? Why should Northerners be lumped with 1980s rolling stock just so London commuters get to work 15 minutes earlier than usual (and don't give me the "It's more than just the 15 minutes" because that is, in fact, one of the few advantages, whatever the brochure might say)
 

AndyLandy

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If HS2 has to be built, how distasteful is it for people in towns and cities across its route not to be able to use it? Why should Northerners be lumped with 1980s rolling stock just so London commuters get to work 15 minutes earlier than usual (and don't give me the "It's more than just the 15 minutes" because that is, in fact, one of the few advantages, whatever the brochure might say)

What towns and cities would those be then?

Do you mean the few rural towns and villages in Buckinghamshire that already have railway stations on either the Chiltern line or the WCML, where removal of Intercity trains for those lines will see a greater level of service provided?

This is like saying "It's an utter disgrace that we bought Pendolinos for the WCML and the Great Eastern gets absolutely no value whatsoever from it!" Except that the GE got the 90s and Mk3s to replace their 86s and Mk2s.
 

PR1Berske

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What towns and cities would those be then?

Do you mean the few rural towns and villages in Buckinghamshire that already have railway stations on either the Chiltern line or the WCML, where removal of Intercity trains for those lines will see a greater level of service provided?

This is like saying "It's an utter disgrace that we bought Pendolinos for the WCML and the Great Eastern gets absolutely no value whatsoever from it!" Except that the GE got the 90s and Mk3s to replace their 86s and Mk2s.

You know what I mean - places like Oxford and Northampton who are within reach but denied access to HS2.
 

AndyLandy

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You know what I mean - places like Oxford and Northampton who are within reach but denied access to HS2.

No, I don't know what you mean. Those places will benefit from additional capacity being freed up on the conventional lines. Why would they want access to HS2? It's not going to make their journeys into London any faster.
 

PR1Berske

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No, I don't know what you mean. Those places will benefit from additional capacity being freed up on the conventional lines. Why would they want access to HS2? It's not going to make their journeys into London any faster.

So that underlines the point made by me and other anti-HS2 folk that the line is a complete waste of money. It's not built for the benefit of the regions, it's built for London-bound commuters.
 

WatcherZero

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Its primarily capacity relief for the Southern WCML between London and Birmingham so yes London commuters do benefit, however the faster links to London from the North mean we benefit too, we also benefit as we are not having to stand on a train all the way from Leeds and Manchester to London which we would have to do in a decades time without it!
 

AndyLandy

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So that underlines the point made by me and other anti-HS2 folk that the line is a complete waste of money. It's not built for the benefit of the regions, it's built for London-bound commuters.

Nope. None of that makes any sense whatsoever. "Not built for the benfit of the regions" is a complete non-sequitur and "It's a complete waste of money" is another non-sequitur on top of that.

I like ice cream.
 

PR1Berske

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Very few of the advantages are sinking in, tbh, I just can't see past the cost and the lack of advantage to the regions.
 

AndyLandy

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Very few of the advantages are sinking in, tbh, I just can't see past the cost and the lack of advantage to the regions.

When you say "the regions", do you mean the areas that the line passes through?

It's rather an intrinsic feature of any half-decent high-speed railway that for it to be of any value at all, it has to cover vast distances through areas it doesn't call at. That's just the nature of the beast.

This is in essence the problem with WCML capacity. There are express trains that run fast down the whole southern section of the WCML, not providing any value to folks anywhere in the Trent Valley or Hertfordshire, taking up paths that could be used by trains that could call there.
 

PR1Berske

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When you say "the regions", do you mean the areas that the line passes through?

It's rather an intrinsic feature of any half-decent high-speed railway that for it to be of any value at all, it has to cover vast distances through areas it doesn't call at. That's just the nature of the beast.

This is in essence the problem with WCML capacity. There are express trains that run fast down the whole southern section of the WCML, not providing any value to folks anywhere in the Trent Valley or Hertfordshire, taking up paths that could be used by trains that could call there.

Are you absolutely convinced--fully--that a High Speed train which may not reach top speed until not long before it has to stop at Birmingham, is the best value investment for England (and I use England quite deliberately).

I use "regions" to mean those parts of the country where HS2 means nothing to them. I used the SW England before now, one of the most economically crippled parts of the country, and was batted away as though I'd made some irrelevant point. It *is* relevant that, say, the NW and NE England would be left with 1980s stock and nothing new whilst a brand new, top-spec, high-speed line is built that goes straight into central London. The perception and the truth is - more investment for the south, nothing for the North.

By scrapping HS2, the regions benefit from focused spending, rather than a London-centric, London-dedicated line that even avoids Oxford, Northampton and all the rest of it.

But like I said, the entire case has been replayed and repeated on this thread many a time, and I just can't agree with it. I don't agree that we need a HS line into London, I don't agree that the cost is justifiable, I don't agree with cutting 15 minutes off commuter times whilst the North gets nothing, I don't agree with the justification for the line being based on commuter behaviour in 2010/2013 when the line won't be open for another 20-odd years, I don't agree with any of it.
 

jon0844

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Last week PR1Berske admitted he was just having fun winding us up, so it's really not worth stating the obvious again.
 

PR1Berske

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Last week PR1Berske admitted he was just having fun winding us up, so it's really not worth stating the obvious again.

I did nothing of the sort.

I said that this scheme is so laughable that I can't help but ridicule it. That's not the same thing, and you know it isn't the same thing.
 

tbtc

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They are planning to finance it through the existing Dft budget, the £2bn per year currently spent on Crossrail would be shifted over

Glad you mentioned Crossrail - funny how much more popular Crossrail is than HS2 nationally - whilst Crossrail is clearly a "greater London" project with virtually no benefit for those who don't visit London.

And also funny how the level of ignorance about HS2 isn't replicated with Crossrail. Can you imagine if the level of debate was along the lines of:

  • Crossrail is bad - it won't go west of Paddington
  • Crossrail is bad - it'll cost £50 bn (if I selectively add on various other schemes and quote the Crossrail costs in 2018 terms, rather than when it got the go-ahead)
  • Crossrail is bad - it'll be a busway
  • Crossrail is bad - it's just about saving five minutes between Liverpool Street and Paddington (which are already connected by the Circle Line)
  • Crossrail is bad - it'll pass some streets that it won't directly serve with a station

(etc)
 

jon0844

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I did nothing of the sort.

I said that this scheme is so laughable that I can't help but ridicule it. That's not the same thing, and you know it isn't the same thing.

But the stuff you say is usually ridiculous. Like now saying a train will have barely reached top speed by the time it gets to Birmingham!
 

PR1Berske

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I appreciate you picking on things like that whilst ignoring (and I therefore take as accepting) that the North is stuck with 1980s stock and little investment whilst a new London-centric expressway is built. So thank you for that.

I don't have much of an opinion either way on Crossrail, while we're onto that, other than to use it as more evidence of investment in London at the expense of the regions. (A "Northern Crossrail" would barely get off the drawing board, I imagine).
 

tec

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It's rather an intrinsic feature of any half-decent high-speed railway that for it to be of any value at all, it has to cover vast distances through areas it doesn't call at. That's just the nature of the beast.

Surely that proves it's just a waste of money then, as the HS2 trains will not be stopping anywhere that people want to get to! :roll:
 

ainsworth74

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I appreciate you picking on things like that whilst ignoring (and I therefore take as accepting) that the North is stuck with 1980s stock and little investment whilst a new London-centric expressway is built.

What other than the Northern Hub, North West Triangle electrification, Transpennine Electrification and Midland Main Line electrification? Plus the possibility of electrification to Hull being tagged onto that lot in the next Control Period.

Surely that proves it's just a waste of money then, as the HS2 trains will not be stopping anywhere that people want to get to! :roll:

Other than calling at London, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Glasgow, Edinburgh, York, Newcastle, Darlington, East Midlands Hub and Meadowhall and there are a few more stations to boot that will be getting HS2 services. Actually looking at it there are a lot more stations getting HS2 services in the North than the South. Interesting that isn't it...
 

tbtc

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What other than the Northern Hub, North West Triangle electrification, Transpennine Electrification and Midland Main Line electrification? Plus the possibility of electrification to Hull being tagged onto that lot in the next Control Period.

Yes, but apart from all of the investment in "the north", what have the Romans ever done for us?
 

yorksrob

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Glad you mentioned Crossrail - funny how much more popular Crossrail is than HS2 nationally - whilst Crossrail is clearly a "greater London" project with virtually no benefit for those who don't visit London.

And also funny how the level of ignorance about HS2 isn't replicated with Crossrail. Can you imagine if the level of debate was along the lines of:

  • Crossrail is bad - it won't go west of Paddington
  • Crossrail is bad - it'll cost £50 bn (if I selectively add on various other schemes and quote the Crossrail costs in 2018 terms, rather than when it got the go-ahead)
  • Crossrail is bad - it'll be a busway
  • Crossrail is bad - it's just about saving five minutes between Liverpool Street and Paddington (which are already connected by the Circle Line)
  • Crossrail is bad - it'll pass some streets that it won't directly serve with a station

(etc)

‘m sceptical about HS2 but I try to keep an open mind.

But, has anyone seriously suggested that HS2 will end up as a guided busway ? I may well have missed something, but I‘ve never seen anything in any of the HS2 discourse to suggest it would end up as a busway !
 

PR1Berske

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‘m sceptical about HS2 but I try to keep an open mind.

But, has anyone seriously suggested that HS2 will end up as a guided busway ? I may well have missed something, but I‘ve never seen anything in any of the HS2 discourse to suggest it would end up as a busway !

Somebody misrepresented one of my snidey remarks as being truthful :roll: I had called it the equivalent of a busway but apparently being tongue-in-cheek doesn't translate well on this forum so I've stuck with "expressway" from then on.
 

HSTEd

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You know, there is a rather large gradient between "going independent" and "building a Berlin wall" (Hadrian's wall?). Any high-speed rail projects across the border could still be done in partnership with Scotland, assuming our government don't childishly fall out with Scotland should that happen.

And the Scottish Government would be willing to pay for the entire alignment from Wigan to Glasgow?
As opposed to the far shorter alignment from Newcastle to Edinburgh (a direct route comes out at about half the length through similar terrain)?

The section without any purpose for English population centres is far shorter for the eastern route than the western route.
 

vtiman

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Somebody misrepresented one of my snidey remarks as being truthful :roll: I had called it the equivalent of a busway but apparently being tongue-in-cheek doesn't translate well on this forum so I've stuck with "expressway" from then on.

The problem is that so many of your comments are snidey and so few of them are truthful (or at least factual). Maybe when you are being snidey give us a <(and when you think you are being factual gives us a :D Most of us will then go :roll::roll::roll: and say you are :-x

Sorry I am just being snidey LOL
 

jon0844

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He also said it was going to cost £80bn in the same signature, which wasn't snidey given the fact it had already been proved to be complete nonsense.
 

WatcherZero

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‘m sceptical about HS2 but I try to keep an open mind.

But, has anyone seriously suggested that HS2 will end up as a guided busway ? I may well have missed something, but I‘ve never seen anything in any of the HS2 discourse to suggest it would end up as a busway !

No hes refering to the 'white elephant' perception that guided busways have, despite Cambridge still going strong, beating expectations in its first year and in its second full year it carried 3.1m passengers, the same pre construction target for its third year of operation meaning its still a full 12 months ahead of predicted passenger growth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And the Scottish Government would be willing to pay for the entire alignment from Wigan to Glasgow?
As opposed to the far shorter alignment from Newcastle to Edinburgh (a direct route comes out at about half the length through similar terrain)?

The section without any purpose for English population centres is far shorter for the eastern route than the western route.

Its already been stated that the Western alignment is prefered as it primarily benefits Glasgow a much larger city than Edinburgh, because of the Geography of the country going east it would be a longer route as it needs to go west again (Edinburgh is north of Manchester and Glasgow is West of Manchester, both are well west of Newcastle) and because theres still a lot of unused capacity on the ECML between England and Scotland. So far the only ones who have even suggested an eastern alignment was Salmond when he was lobbying Councillors in Newcastle to support HS2 phase one and two and not oppose it because it didnt reach them.

The Scottish Partnership Group (Network Rail, CBI Scotland and Transport Scotland) in January proposed that HS2 was extended from Leeds to Newcastle and from Manchester to Scotland and that people in Newcastle to Scotland could use the existing connections.

j202923_g02.gif
 
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bnm

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Before the increase in costs announced in July, the Benefit/Cost Ratio (BCR) was 1.4 for phase one and 1.9 for phases one and two, according to HS2.

Previous SoS for Transport Phillip Hammond said that any BCR below 1.5 should be "put under very close scrutiny". And the goverment's own belief is that BCRs below 1.5 are regarded as 'poor'.

The total cost of the project has increased to £50.1bn and the BCR for phase one is now 1.2, and for phases one and two, 1.3. And that's using an outdated model for passenger demand.

Use a more up to date model, as is being done with all other large rail infrastructure projects, and the BCRs for HS2 drop below 1.

I'll mention again my thoughts on capacity. There are other ways to address capacity than by building this far too expensive white elephant. Reduce the need to travel to/from London. Focus regeneration in the regional centres and improve transport links in those centres. Make it more attractive to live and work in the regions and you reduce the need to travel to/from London.

Some work is being done on regional transport, (Northern Hub, Transpennine electrification) but it isn't enough. More also needs spending on job creation and housing in those areas. A quicker, and I'd contend, cheaper solution than HS2.
 

HSTEd

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Its already been stated that the Western alignment is prefered as it primarily benefits Glasgow a much larger city than Edinburgh, because of the Geography of the country going east it would be a longer route as it needs to go west again (Edinburgh is north of Manchester and Glasgow is West of Manchester, both are well west of Newcastle)/


Remember that you are eating up track at the rate of 5.3km every single minute. The distance travelled within reason is effectively irrelevent.
An important factor is the total amount of track required and since a E-G HSR line is going to be constructed anyway you effectively only need 105 miles to get between Glasgow and Newcastle, and then you have an already priced line to York where you join up with the end of the Leeds branch of the HS2-2 plan.

Attempting an up the west coast route requires 210 miles of track between Wigan (the northern end of the Manchester branch of HS2-2) and Glasgow, and then a spur to Edinburgh since it is unlikely that these journey time fetishists would be satisifed with looping around using the existing E-G link.

So overall you end up requiring similar or even more track for less actual population served, all for a few minutes to Glasgow on a several hour journey.

Precent exists for such a routing via population centres instead of a point-to-point connection in the LGV Nord which is routed via Lille rather than in a straight line between its two primary end points (Paris and the Channel Tunnel).

and because theres still a lot of unused capacity on the ECML between England and Scotland. So far the only ones who have even suggested an eastern alignment was Salmond when he was lobbying Councillors in Newcastle to support HS2 phase one and two and not oppose it because it didnt reach them.

But aren't we constantly told that there is no room in the timetable for an Edinburgh-Newcastle stopper, requiring EC trains to stop at numerous irrelevent destinations that would never, in the normal cause of things, justify a significant InterCity service?


The Scottish Partnership Group (Network Rail, CBI Scotland and Transport Scotland) in January proposed that HS2 was extended from Leeds to Newcastle and from Manchester to Scotland and that people in Newcastle to Scotland could use the existing connections.

j202923_g02.gif

Yes, but this assumes that the choice is between a western alignment and an eastern alignment.
But the choice in an independent scotland could quite easily be between an eastern alignment and no alignment.

And remember that it is probably rather naive to believe that an alignment to a Newcastle that is not on the route to Scotland would ever be built.
The Government would baulk at the >£4.5bn price tag.
They would just hide behind the classic compatibles and say that no new spur would be required.
It would certainly be behind Liverpool in the queue since rather less track is required for a similar population/time saving to Newcastle.

(Especially if its a short northern link from Wigan to the vicinity of the former Exchange site).

EDIT:

And As to a second High Speed Line terminus, I like Paddington myself, it points towards other parts of the country that could get a service in future (Great Western area) but could still potentially serve as the end of a second route to the vicinity of Birmingham.

Hell remember that we don't even have to have stations be on the same side of London as the route they serve (see St Pancras), so we can use whatever terminus is convenient, and Paddington has a nice easy access route that means we only has to demolish a single office building to get the long platforms in and will have spare platform space as it is thanks to Crossrail.
Much easier than say... Liverpool Street.

Although Kings Cross is also doable if you put the canal north of it onto an aqueduct over the very end of the platforms.
 
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