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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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ainsworth74

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You have listed a load of cities.....

A load of cities that will have direct services using HS2 with flows of passengers between those cities being some of the largest going. Which means that, in fact, HS2 will very much be stopping at places people want to go. I'd have thought that was clear from what I said.

Unless you believe that HS2 services will only operate between London and Birmingham?

I am assuming you need to commute from London to Birmingham as there are no jobs in London? Or you need to commute from Birmingham to London for the same reasons?

Actually I'm quite happy in the North East thanks very much but even if I wasn't this project isn't about commuting. Commuting will play a not insignificant part but it's certainly isn't solely about commuting.

So again we can take it that you do not have a reasonable response to make?
 
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HSTEd

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Oh and with regards to the proposed London-Cambridge-Peterborough-Nottingham route for some sort of HS2 relief connected with the fact that HS2-2 will be swamped eventually if all the expansions people keep talking about go through (Newcastle, Liverpool, Scotland et al) and that Manchester and Birmingham will probably start agitating for a fourth service every hour.

It would probably steal the primary Norwich route from the GEML since the journey time even using the current Cambridge-Norwich stopping patterns and route profiles would be 10-15 minutes shorter.

But that is an interesting effect.
 

PR1Berske

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Taking this WAY off topic but the lack of WMDs in Iraq was the cornerstone of the arguments against military action against Syria. We were sold the Iraq invasion on a false prospectus. I trust Government "intelligence" just as much as I do their budgets.

With specific regard to the stops on HS2 - I will slap {{citation needed}} on Preston along with a few others. I accept that there are stops along the proposed route though that moves me only inches from my point of opposition, I just mourn the loss of what could have been had the money been invested in the existing network rather than building a new one. But I think we've been around these circles enough times!
 

ainsworth74

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With specific regard to the stops on HS2 - I will slap {{citation needed}} on Preston along with a few others.

Ask and ye shall receive. Specifically figure 3.

I accept that there are stops along the proposed route though that moves me only inches from my point of opposition

Finally some progress! :lol:;)

I just mourn the loss of what could have been had the money been invested in the existing network rather than building a new one. But I think we've been around these circles enough times!

You may morn. Personally I look forward to what CP5 will be delivering for the rest of the 'classic' network and see no reason to think that CP6 won't bring more of the same.
 

Deerfold

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I just mourn the loss of what could have been had the money been invested in the existing network rather than building a new one.

We could join you if you ever told us what could be done and for what cost but other than "optimising paths" and other non-specific phrases you never do.
 

tec

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Personally I look forward to what CP5 will be delivering for the rest of the 'classic' network and see no reason to think that CP6 won't bring more of the same.

I prefer CP12 which would bring a train to my front door, and a driver that makes me cheese sandwiches, but it's not going to happen. :lol:
 

jon0844

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We could join you if you ever told us what could be done and for what cost but other than "optimising paths" and other non-specific phrases you never do.

It's a secret, like phase 2 for the underpants gnomes..

UnderpantsGnomesPlan.jpg
 

NotATrainspott

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HS2 isn't just using a separate money pot from the existing network upgrades, it will also use separate resources on its own. Right now if you want to work on a live working railway you'll need a lot of safety training and so on but with HS2 it's just another very long construction site until such time as we borrow the LGV-laying machine from the French and get some rails on it, so we don't need to take workers from the limited existing rail infrastructure pool. Most of the time and cost is just getting the alignments, tunnels and viaducts sorted so after that the laying of rails won't take very long at all so for the vast majority of the project we'll be able to use general construction and engineering workers and resources.
 

HSTEd

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It won't even need specialised rail mounted plant for the electrification equipment, it is basically done by people on the backs of lorries as the last task.
The metalwork and concrete bases can be poured in whatever way is convenient in whatever order is convenient, fitting into the overall work schedule.

Not having a railway around really simplifies things.
 

YorkshireBear

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Finally some sensible journalism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/inside-whitehall-the-british-first-complain-about-big-infrastructure-projects-then-come-to-revere-them-hs2-will-be-no-different-8795474.html

It was a little under 200 years ago when the idea of a high speed inter-city rail link between London and Birmingham was first proposed. Allowing trains to travel at record speeds of 20mph, the line, its supporters claimed, would provide “cheap and expeditious travelling” and “the rapid and economical interchange of the great articles of consumption and commerce”.

But critics were scathing. Angry public meetings were held along the proposed route while in Parliament one MP declared: “Nothing is more distasteful to me than to hear the echo of our hills reverberating with the noise of hissing railroad engines running through the heart of our hunting country, and destroying that noble sport to which I have been accustomed from my childhood.”

Another said he “would rather meet a highwayman, or see a burglar on his premises, than an engineer”. But the line was built. And the route along which it runs we now know as the West Coast main line.

When it comes to the arguments raging for and against HS2, historical parallels are only so useful. But – putting aside for one moment the relative merits and demerits of the £40bn scheme – it is worth noting that pretty much every single major infrastructure project this country has ever constructed from the Victorian railways to today has faced strident opposition.

The M25, the Channel Tunnel, the Victoria line and the Jubilee line extension. All of them had their critics. But on completion most of the complaints withered.

Take the M25. The BBC presenter Evan Davis recently went back to the village of Ashtead in Surrey where he grew up for the television series Built in Britain. During his childhood the village was at the forefront of opposition to the new motorway – but when today’s residents were asked which of them would do away with the motorway hardly a single person raised their hand.

So what about HS2? The opposition certainly appears to be in the ascendency. What started as a Nimbyish campaign by affected areas has morphed into substantive economic argument against the new railway line.

Those opposed point to how the cost of building the link from London to Birmingham and then on to Manchester and Leeds has ballooned from £30bn to £43bn.

The Institute of Economic Affairs, a right-wing think tank, recently published a research document that concluded HS2 was poor value for money and suggesting that the cost could end up rising by another £30bn.

They were quickly joined by the Institute for Directors, which branded it “a grand folly”. A survey of their members found that just 27 per cent felt the high-speed rail project represented good value for money and 70 per cent said the scheme would have no impact on the productivity of their business.

Even senior Labour figures who once supported HS2 have now changed their mind. Alistair Darling and Peter Mandelson now suggest that in times of austerity we should think again.

So are the opponents right? Is HS2 an expensive white elephant that should be put out of its misery?

Well, no. The arguments in favour of HS2 are just as compelling as they were – even if they have been badly made and badly defended in recent months.

Part of the problem is the focus on speed as the main selling point of the new railway. Yes, the new railway will go faster but that is not the real reason for building HS2. The real reason is capacity. The current West Coast main line is – in non-technical language – full. It cannot take any more trains. Not just fast trains – but commuter trains and freight trains as well.

And this problem is only going to get worse. Britain’s population is due to grow by 10 million by 2030 and our rail and motorway networks are already at bursting point. One way or another we have to build new roads or new railways.

Critics of HS2 suggest we can get around the problem by increasing the capacity of the existing line. But that could not be done without long term closures across the West Coast railway. To give just one example: Network Rail recently announced it was going to shut the West Coast at Watford for five weeks simply to maintain the line. During that period it is estimated that up to 80,000 people a day will have been ferried by coach around the closed stretch. Just imagine the disruption needed to upgrade the whole line. And it wouldn’t be cheap either.

Then there is the question of HS2’s cost. Critics say that the recent £13bn rise in the project shows the Government cannot be trusted to bring it in on time and on budget.

But this is unfair. Most of the extra money is a result of contingency funds being increased to £14bn. HS2 now has a 95 per cent likelihood of coming in either at or less than £43bn – compared to 50 per cent under the previous rules.

And also this cost will be spread over 15 years. Even at the peak of construction cost the Government will still be spending only marginally more on HS2 a year than it will on updating the road network.

That is not even touching on the wider economic benefits the new line will bring – both in its construction and its existence. It will take lorries off the road, help connect northern cities not just to London but to each other and preserve the advanced engineering skills currently being honed by the Crossrail project. It should also significantly reduce carbon emissions.

It is always easy to find reasons not to do something. But let’s go back to history. If HS2 is built, how many of us will be saying in 20 years’ time “I wish we hadn’t done that”?
 

33Hz

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^ Good article, but it overlooks the fact that there were closures of the "West Coast Railway" with associated disruption, spending £10bn to carry out what IMHO was long overdue maintenance. Where did that get us?

And how much of this £50bn projected cost is optimism bias? 60%?


And I don't believe Alistair Darling was ever pro-HS2. He dithered over it while in government while successive studies said the project had good merits. It took Lord Adonis to get the ball rolling.
 
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joeykins82

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Network Rail said:
Our new report 'Better connections: options for the integration of High Speed 2' sets out initial proposals for how HS2 could be integrated into the national rail network once the second phase connecting Birmingham with Leeds and Manchester is complete.

It considers three broad approaches to how the capacity released by HS2 could be used in advance of more detailed assessments of the benefits:

1. 'Do minimum’ approach – this would keep train services on existing lines broadly the same, offering reduced crowding and increased choice for passengers between high-speed and conventional long-distance services at certain locations
2. ‘Incremental’ approach – this seeks to replace long distance services on the existing network which are replicated by those provided by HS2, allowing the capacity to be used for improved inter-urban connectivity and/or additional commuting capacity
3. ‘Integrated connectivity’ approach – a more radical concept which would see all future rail services planned in a ‘hub and spoke’ model to complement and work in conjunction with HS2
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2...-benefit-from-quicker-more-frequent-journeys/

The PDF linked on that page is very interesting reading and helpfully torpedoes all of the arguments around how HS2 signals the death of the existing rail network.
 

PR1Berske

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I'll read that Network Rail pdf in full later, but the first option alone has a hell of a lot of "could", "might", "possible", "may", and the like. Doesn't fill me with confidence.
 

The Ham

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I'll read that Network Rail pdf in full later, but the first option alone has a hell of a lot of "could", "might", "possible", "may", and the like. Doesn't fill me with confidence.

That's because it is just sounding out options rather than saying that one option is the best and going with that.

The document does, however, show that there are many ways of significantly improving services on the WCML post HS2.
 

WatcherZero

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Some new concept renders of Man Pic from MCC masterplanning doc.

Screen-Shot-2013-09-04-at-13.00.48.png


Screen-Shot-2013-09-04-at-11.05.50-390x252.png


Screen-Shot-2013-09-04-at-11.05.36-390x234.png


I must admit I do love the huge shed.
 

Muzer

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That's better - I'd seen some renderings where it was just a rectangle on stilts! Were those just renderings of where the station would be without showing its style, or did they actually change it after realising it looked awful?
 

59CosG95

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I searched around for a similar thread to this and found it locked. So I'm opening a new one, discussing what can be be done with the probable £80bn for HS2. I'm not against the project, but I think that the money can be put elsewhere, such as:

  • An increase on the WCML fasts from 4 to 6 tracks, with slewing for the 2 new tracks to allow higher speeds.
  • Quadrupling and wiring of the Chiltern Main Line.
  • An entirely electric XC network.
  • Extra tracks at Welwyn Viaduct to uncork the bottleneck.
  • Wiring of the entire SWT network after the Electric Spine, for compatibilty with the B'stoke-So'ton infrastructure and for Crossrail 2 compatibility.
  • Following on from that, DC=>AC conversion of the entire Southern Region.
  • Replacement of the Pacers!
  • Double-tracking and wiring of the WoEML.
EDIT: The thread has been merged with this one.
Want to suggest something else? Feel free!
 
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HSTEd

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This idea of putting circulating space under the platforms seems very big now.... myself I prefer the idea of a mezzinine over the platforms as I think it gets a nicer overall look....

But a giant trainshed is certainly nice :D
 

HSTEd

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It only includes £80bn if you include the price of a spur to Liverpool and Crossrail 2 with it, amongst other ridiculous assumptions.

But there we go...
 

Tobbes

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I searched around for a similar thread to this and found it locked. So I'm opening a new one, discussing what can be be done with the probable £80bn for HS2. I'm not against the project, but I think that the money can be put elsewhere, such as:

  • An increase on the WCML fasts from 4 to 6 tracks, with slewing for the 2 new tracks to allow higher speeds.
  • Quadrupling and wiring of the Chiltern Main Line.
  • An entirely electric XC network.
  • Extra tracks at Welwyn Viaduct to uncork the bottleneck.
  • Wiring of the entire SWT network after the Electric Spine, for compatibilty with the B'stoke-So'ton infrastructure and for Crossrail 2 compatibility.
  • Following on from that, DC=>AC conversion of the entire Southern Region.
  • Replacement of the Pacers!
  • Double-tracking and wiring of the WoEML.

Want to suggest something else? Feel free!

In addition to HSTEd's excellent point, do you happen to have a costed plan for this wishlist? I'm not sure how much of it could be delivered for £42bn (including £15bn contingency).

Tobbes
 

59CosG95

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An mostly electric XC network wouldn't cost that much, only about £10bn. (Excluding Scotland north of Waverley and Cornwall.)Then, Voyagers could be moved to Scotrail, releasing Turbostars for FGW, Northern and ATW as Pacer replacements. Further Sprinters could be released by SWT's wireup, and, let's face it, Welwyn needs more tracks. Also, the unmentioned £23bn (of the projected £80bn that isn't the actual £42bn + £15bn contingency) would go towards CR2. But I guess the Southern Region switchover can wait.
 
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CalderRail

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This idea of putting circulating space under the platforms seems very big now.... myself I prefer the idea of a mezzinine over the platforms as I think it gets a nicer overall look....

It's preferred because of the extensive use (current & projected) of overhead lines, isn't it?
 

HSTEd

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The £42bn includes an enormous contigency already.

And why does Welwyn need more tracks?
It would almost certainly be better value to build a London-Cambridge-Peterborough HSL than rebuild that mess.

And you relieve the GEML too with such a route. (Norwich trains woudl be rerouted).
 

swt_passenger

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There isn't a vast sum of money allocated to HS2 OR NR. If it isn't used on HS2 it doesn't automatically become available to other rail projects.

The subject's been done to death already, which is presumably why the earlier thread was closed...
 

HSTEd

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It's preferred because of the extensive use (current & projected) of overhead lines, isn't it?

Does that really make that much difference?

Its no more risk than a busy bridge, and you could put six foot tall glass walls on the "end" of the mezzanine if you want.
 

Hadders

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We should just get on and build HS2 as quickly as possible. I really don't understand why we have to have so much faffing around over such projects in this country.

I remember the NIMBYS when the M40 extension was built through the same area around 20 years ago.
 

anthony263

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We should just get on and build HS2 as quickly as possible. I really don't understand why we have to have so much faffing around over such projects in this country.

I remember the NIMBYS when the M40 extension was built through the same area around 20 years ago.

Somone who has common sense at last :D

Ia do agree exactly with what you are saying. Besides a number of the people complaining are going to be OAP's etc who will not be around or lot for long afterwards once HS2 is built so they should stop being selfish.


After all there is the younger generations behind them and this piece of infrastructure will be really needed in the future.
 
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