Third class rail travel on the way back - Telegraph

[Marton]

I have some sympathy with those who want a new class.

Those of us paying open ticket prces in first or standard (off peak or ful fare) often get a bad deal.

Flexible, but no seats and Business fares but no business environment are my major bugbears.

Eurostar has 3 classes - business. premium and standard. No idea what Business is like, but premium can offer good value with food and space.

 

[Bishopstone]

In the event of a three tier system, many First Class customers might trade down to Premium Economy offering (say) free wi-fi, tea and coffee and a guaranteed (or almost guaranteed) seat, plus a quieter environment.

There would be less First Class carriages, and therefore a need for fewer staff to do the 'double booze runs' we hear about on the EC thread.

Many of the at-seat service staff will be RMT members.

It's therefore not surprising Bob Crow doesn't like this plan.

 

[starrymarkb]

I'd quite like a "1st Lite", using some number of 1st carriages to provide reservation-only, no-freebies.

Basically all you pay for is less cramped conditions and nicer seating.

So like on the Continent then - the freebies seem to be a British thing

 

[Taunton]

Whilst my connections to rail travel only go back to the early 1950's, all that I can remember is first class and third class being the available modes of travel in those far-off days.

For many years until 1956 the only "second class" operation in Britain was on boat trains from Victoria to Dover. There was a build of about 15 Mk 1 Open Second vehicles in the early 1950s that were second class, supplementing the pre-nationalisation coaches, and which for fitout were halfway between First and the standard Third. This happened because Continental railways maintained three classes until this time.

There were a number of key Continental expresses which were First and Second only, relegating the bulk of passengers on Third class tickets to slower trains. The high speed diesel trains introduced in Germany in the 1930s, however, were very egalitarian - Second class only.

 

[D1009]

The Times today suggests that the intermediate class might be created by having standard class reservation-only carriages.

Which there already are on a significant number of trains, particularly on XC. Currently I reckon most reserved seats are held by people using advance tickets which automatically include a reservation. On this basis the intermediate class should be the one used by people on walk up fares.

 

[34D]

For many years until 1956 the only "second class" operation in Britain was on boat trains from Victoria to Dover. There was a build of about 15 Mk 1 Open Second vehicles in the early 1950s that were second class, supplementing the pre-nationalisation coaches, and which for fitout were halfway between First and the standard Third.

Ah yes, 3500 to 3514. All scrapped. One survived into the 21st century but then scrapped, link.

Can anyone find any pics of their interiors? Most were scrapped very early, as in 1969, pdf source.

 

[dievoyagerdie]

So if standard is now third class are we referring to economy class on a large plane as steerage? After all it is fourth class.

Back to the trains I fully support it. Depending on how it's set up. After all hasn't Eurostar had three classes of service for many years now.

If I was guaranteed a seat (even if it was the same style seats as standard) with refreshments (no meal but the drinks and snacks) free wifi and kid free zone then I'd quite happily pay extra for this.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the key factor if I were the TOC would be will this new class entice people out of standard or encourage business types to trade down from first. If the latter, I doubt I'd go for it.

 

[34D]

I like the idea of a class below standard. Personally, I would make one coach on EC leeds-london 2+3 seating from a pacer and put all the £13 advance people there, leaving the 2+2 standard class seats for those of us with flexible tickets.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I like the idea of a class below standard. Personally, I would make one coach on EC leeds-london 2+3 seating from a pacer and put all the £13 advance people there, leaving the 2+2 standard class seats for those of us with flexible tickets.

But that would be the even lower "below-standard" class known as "Pacer class"...

 

[34D]

But that would be the even lower "below-standard" class known as "Pacer class"...

Yes. It could be classified 'economy' with the current standard class being classified 'premium economy'. Still leaving room for a 'business' midway between the current first and standard (whether that be 2nd class seats with tea/coffee, or 1st class seats with no service, etc etc.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes. It could be classified 'economy' with the current standard class being classified 'premium economy'. Still leaving room for a 'business' midway between the current first and standard (whether that be 2nd class seats with tea/coffee, or 1st class seats with no service, etc etc.

More likely to be half a carriage of footloose business people with several carriages of those of us in advanced purchase steerage.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

More likely to be half a carriage of footloose business people with several carriages of those of us in advanced purchase steerage.

Half a carriage full of "business-types"...you surely are not using a Class 185 as your example..or are you.

 

[AndyLandy]

Until the 1950's it was 1st class or 3rd class. 2nd class had only existed in a few places in pre-nationalisation days. 3rd class was renamed 2nd class, then became standard class.

The irony is that this is exactly what's talking about being reversed. Turn standard class back into third class and introduce a new class in the gap. For sure, they'll have more appropriate names (perhaps first, business, standard or similar)

But all the journos who are anti it always use the exact same quotes "Turning the clocks back to the 50s" and references to "Third class" rail travel.

 

[Mojo]

The danger in providing a more basic version of First, or a better version of Standard, is that many companies or individuals who would have paid to go First class purely for the better seating or quieter journey would now choose to go for this new, cheaper, class which would result in a loss of income to the Tocs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It looks like they're trying to recreate "silver standard", but actually I think Crowbar Bob is entirely correct. If you have "silver standard" for your walk-up passengers, then inevitably "standard standard" will get worse. And on EC the advance tickets are not cheap.

Standard class got noticeably worse on East Coast when they brought in their improved first class service. Bring in a silver standard service and I dread to think how much worse again it would sink. And if First or Virgin get the franchise it'd be even worse again anyway, as neither treat standard class passengers as anything other than cattle (and even First Class passengers on FGW get a fairly rubbish service).

I wouldn't mind, but Intercity got rid of Silver Standard because it didn't work commercially, because people just traded down from First Class.

 

[jon0844]

Many companies won't let people travel first class. Even I had to convince my boss that going first class to Manchester was cheaper than the equivalent standard advance (as the cheapest ones had sold out).

So, a 'middle class' that lets people upgrade on the train for a reasonable price, but perhaps without the extras, has always sounded like a good option. Even when I am travelling for work, I might well opt to upgrade my standard ticket for my own personal comfort. Yet, if I'm paying out of my own pocket, I'm not going to pay the full first class fare!

 

[gordonthemoron]

I think that having a class between first & standard would suit Virgin Pendolinos as they could reclassify one of the first class coaches but not provide the free food etc

 

[marks87]

Many companies won't let people travel first class. Even I had to convince my boss that going first class to Manchester was cheaper than the equivalent standard advance (as the cheapest ones had sold out).

My employer is the same - they categorically refuse to fund first class travel. Even if I can demonstrate that the First Advance in my left hand is considerably cheaper than the Standard Anytime Return in my right, they'll only pay out for the latter (while also not caring that I could possibly have got a cheaper off-peak return - it's standard class, that's all that matters).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Many companies won't let people travel first class.

It depends on the company, and how high up the food chain you are. IME the big companies restrict first class to certain grades of management, as a perk, which is why people lower down in the company will not be permitted to travel first class. One of my friends had the same issue with company cars, with which model you get being linked to which grade you are, even if the basic model is more expensive (which happens with BMWs every now and again).

If "silver standard" were to act like Business Class on Chiltern, I could see the point, although commercially I still think it would be a disaster for TOCs who do a full first class service.

 

[GodAtum]

Surely 3rd class could be without any seats? I'm sure a lot of commuters dont get a seat anyway so paying for something cheaper will be good.

 

[work-traveller]

So it would seem that Jeremy Clarkson was right in 2011 when Top Gear 'built' a 'train', with the carriages designated as:

a) First class
b) Second class
c) Scum class

 

[Chrisgr31]

It depends on the company, and how high up the food chain you are. IME the big companies restrict first class to certain grades of management, as a perk, which is why people lower down in the company will not be permitted to travel first class. One of my friends had the same issue with company cars, with which model you get being linked to which grade you are, even if the basic model is more expensive (which happens with BMWs every now and again).

If "silver standard" were to act like Business Class on Chiltern, I could see the point, although commercially I still think it would be a disaster for TOCs who do a full first class service.

I have to come up with a pretty good excuse to travel 1st Class on a work trip. Excuses include travelling with a client, needing to do confidential work on the train etc but I can't be bothered to leap through the hoops to book it. We have an online train booking service with a ticket printer in the office so if I can opt for the hassle free version I will.

The "Business Class" on Chiltern is in my opinion expensive for what you get. I was on a Chiltern service the other day and it seemed to cost £25 and I am not sure what the benefit was.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's £25 peak, £10 off peak, and you get free tea and coffee and first class seating (the carriage used to be a first class carriage). It's not great, but it beats the walk-up fare that Virgin charge for their first class services.

It's basically the same as Weekend First, except on peak trains.

I book my own tickets as I work for a small employer, and but can only justify first class where I can demonstrate it is cheaper than the equivalent standard class fare. Being able to book my own tickets is mostly useful for the rewards points, even if availability of those seems somewhat limited these days.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My employer is the same - they categorically refuse to fund first class travel. Even if I can demonstrate that the First Advance in my left hand is considerably cheaper than the Standard Anytime Return in my right, they'll only pay out for the latter (while also not caring that I could possibly have got a cheaper off-peak return - it's standard class, that's all that matters).

I must, hand on heart, prior to my retirement, admit to have been a senior member of the top management at our consultancy who travelled first-class on railway lines where this was afforded.We also had an account with a company that offered the use of chauffeur-driven limousine fleet cars to areas that had no rail service.

 

[mirodo]

I must, hand on heart, prior to my retirement, admit to have been a senior member of the top management at our consultancy who travelled first-class on railway lines where this was afforded.We also had an account with a company that offered the use of chauffeur-driven limousine fleet cars to areas that had no rail service.

And you still associate with plebs like us? We're honoured!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Amongst other ills I manage our travel and we more than happy to accept first class rail travel where it is cheaper.

We also encourage buying two advance tickets for a return leg rather than an open ticket where people are unsure about their finish time.

Our TMC are fully versed to manage these requests.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I thought standard class was third class just rebadged twice to make it sound better.

technically it is as the Uk got rid of 'Second class' on domestic services pre BR ... although BR re-branded third to second before rebranding to 'standard'

it's Crow proving that the truth of the fantasy land of the old school unions is even more far fetched than satire

 

[Barn]

it's Crow proving that the truth of the fantasy land of the old school unions is even more far fetched than satire

I think Old Ma Crow must have forgotten to teach little Bob the tale of the boy who cried wolf. Most people simply do not believe a word he says any more. It'll be a shame for when he actually does have something vaguely important to say.

 

[johnnychips]

I think Old Ma Crow must have forgotten to teach little Bob the tale of the boy who cried wolf. Most people simply do not believe a word he says any more. It'll be a shame for when he actually does have something vaguely important to say.

Quite. The thing is, papers and TV/radio always know he'll be on hand to give a quote, maybe even slightly controversial. There used to be a Tory MP called Anthony Beaumont-Dark like that, Lord Owen, some christian bigot called Steven whom nobody agrees with but 'provides balance'...their numbers must be on journos' speed dial. Meanwhile I am struggling to think of the other rail unions' bosses' names.