Todmorden Curve

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The PTEs have paid for Northern to introduce extra units on peak workings and wouldn't be too happy if they were used for something else instead.

I suppose that this matter will have to be renegotiated with the successful bidder for the new franchise, when the time arrives.

 

[WatcherZero]

True and as I mentioned earlier in the thread Northern's DMUs will be stretched further from May 2014 with shorter turnaround times and more through services at Victoria to make sure the Bolton corridor has sufficient capacity following on from the TPE changes.

Apart from some earlier and later services the main extra capacity they have pledged to put on from May (though units might be available earlier) is switching a 156 diagram for 2x150's.

 

[northwichcat]

Apart from some earlier and later services the main extra capacity they have pledged to put on from May (though units might be available earlier) is switching a 156 diagram for 2x150's.

Which one are you referring to:
The 15:33 Hazel Grove – Preston and 17:23 from Preston to Hazel Grove
or
The 18:03 Manchester Airport - Southport?

Northern have apparently confirmed the latter will be getting extra capacity from December, if possible and the former from next May.

The 08:21 Preston – Stockport is also being looked at.

 

[WatcherZero]

The former I think, the info I have wasnt timetable specific, only in the classes involved, that it was the constituent of the May capacity increase therefore the possibility of it being available a few months earlier did not expand capacity beyond what was already pledged for May.

The thing that always marvels me is how they manage to lay on so much strengthening and extra shuttles in Manchester at Christmas, are they simply postponing regular overhauls to maximise availability for service? Because when they strengthen the Cumbrian services for the half term hols (around this time of the year) there they always do it by pinching a Manchester unit for a week.

 

[edwin_m]

The thing that always marvels me is how they manage to lay on so much strengthening and extra shuttles in Manchester at Christmas, are they simply postponing regular overhauls to maximise availability for service? Because when they strengthen the Cumbrian services for the half term hols (around this time of the year) there they always do it by pinching a Manchester unit for a week.

For Manchester, do they just use the units that normally strengthen other services in the morning peak but are otherwise idle until the evening? And maybe the number of commuters as well as school passengers in Manchester reduces enough at half term that a train or two doesn't need the normal strengthening.

 

[Techniquest]

I thought finding a young lady's happy place was a five-part process, starting about 3/4" below her left nipple...

Dreadful! Gotta admit, I've no idea what you're on about!

 

[northwichcat]

strengthening and extra shuttles in Manchester at Christmas, are they simply postponing regular overhauls to maximise availability for service? Because when they strengthen the Cumbrian services for the half term hols (around this time of the year) there they always do it by pinching a Manchester unit for a week.

A few years ago when there were complaints about Saturday Mid-Cheshire services being so full that some people were made to wait an hour for the next service Northern said they couldn't possibly use more than 5 x 2 car DMUs for the Mid-Cheshire line, even though there are 7 x 2 car DMUs used at peak times on weekdays. However, more recently 2 of the 5 diagrams on the Mid-Cheshire line on Saturdays have become 4 car instead of 2 car.

The de-strengthened services next week will be:
 0741 Rose Hill – Manchester
 0854 Rose Hill - Manchester
 1623 Manchester – Marple
 1718 Manchester – New Mills
 1822 Manchester – New Mills

I would have thought some of those could still run as 4 car even with a unit down with a diagramming revision for next week. I'm thinking specifically about the pointless 6 car working from Manchester to Buxton at the end of the morning peak and the reverse mid-afternoon. Then in the afternoon the 16:51 Manchester to Buxton service is formed using units which run the 15:02 Chester to Manchester meaning 4 of the 6 carriages that come up from Buxton in the 6 car formation sit at Piccadilly for around 90 minutes doing nothing at a busy time.

 

[Thomas6187]

The de-strengthened services next week will be:
 0741 Rose Hill – Manchester
 0854 Rose Hill - Manchester
 1623 Manchester – Marple
 1718 Manchester – New Mills
 1822 Manchester – New Mills

I would have thought some of those could still run as 4 car even with a unit down with a diagramming revision for next week. I'm thinking specifically about the pointless 6 car working from Manchester to Buxton at the end of the morning peak and the reverse mid-afternoon. Then in the afternoon the 16:51 Manchester to Buxton service is formed using units which run the 15:02 Chester to Manchester meaning 4 of the 6 carriages that come up from Buxton in the 6 car formation sit at Piccadilly for around 90 minutes doing nothing at a busy time.

But after doing nothing for 90 minute it then work a very important service. Moving around units would only cause more issue in the morning on the Buxton Line. The Units that work the 16:23 stand down from 10:57. However I wish that they wouldn't de-strengthened the 17:18 New Mills as this can be become crush loaded easily. When Northern did during the Summer there was no different is Pass Numbers

 

[northwichcat]

But after doing nothing for 90 minute it then work a very important service. Moving around units would only cause more issue in the morning on the Buxton Line. The Units that work the 16:23 stand down from 10:57. However I wish that they wouldn't de-strengthened the 17:18 New Mills as this can be become crush loaded easily. When Northern did during the Summer there was no different is Pass Numbers

What I was thinking is the 4 car set to work the 17:50 Manchester-Buxton service is at Piccadilly before 16:23 so it could be used to work the 1623 Manchester – Marple and the return working and be back at Piccadilly in time to do it's usual Buxton service. Alternatively, the 4 car set can sit there for 90 minutes doing nothing, while there is a 2 car DMU running a service which is usually 4 cars.

 

[edwin_m]

What I was thinking is the 4 car set to work the 17:50 Manchester-Buxton service is at Piccadilly before 16:23 so it could be used to work the 1623 Manchester – Marple and the return working and be back at Piccadilly in time to do it's usual Buxton service. Alternatively, the 4 car set can sit there for 90 minutes doing nothing, while there is a 2 car DMU running a service which is usually 4 cars.

That would involve taking the set right across the station throat at least once - maybe there is no path at the relevant time?

 

[Thomas6187]

The extra unit is not really needed on the 16:23, the loading is reasonable but not full & standing. Plus it the same train crew so changes would be needed on that front too.

 

[spongsdad]

Owing to storms in the South of England some trains will be cancelled; others will be delayed for some hours
Owing to lack of foresight in the North of England, trains via the Todmorden Curve are liable to be delayed by several months!

 

[northwichcat]

Owing to lack of foresight in the North of England, trains via the Todmorden Curve are liable to be delayed by several months!

It wouldn't have been that hard to prevent this.

Southern were due to get their 377s back from FCC next year but due to the Thameslink delay they haven't been allowed to. Consequently, they've been allowed to order additional 377s.

LM have the option to order additional 172s which DfT haven't exercised. If it was enough could be ordered to allow some 15xs to be cascaded to Northern. (The 172s also have SDO so they could be used on Marston Vale even though they are too long for some platforms.)

 

[Signal Head]

It wouldn't have been that hard to prevent this.

Southern were due to get their 377s back from FCC next year but due to the Thameslink delay they haven't been allowed to. Consequently, they've been allowed to order additional 377s.

LM have the option to order additional 172s which DfT haven't exercised. If it was enough could be ordered to allow some 15xs to be cascaded to Northern. (The 172s also have SDO so they could be used on Marston Vale even though they are too long for some platforms.)

That would require a level of forward planning, co-operation, and plain old common sense which 'the railway' (in which I include DfT) just isn't capable of anymore.

 

[edwin_m]

Owing to storms in the South of England some trains will be cancelled; others will be delayed for some hours
Owing to DfT lack of foresight and/or lack of interest in the North of England, trains via the Todmorden Curve are liable to be delayed by several months!

Put that right for you. The distribution of trains is entirely down to the DfT.

 

[ianhr]

Visited Tod today. The cross over is now in, on a slight curve between the platforms and the viaduct, and so a Manchester train coming off the curve will run 'wrong line' over the viaduct. The turn out for the curve off the down line north of the viaduct is assembled beside the Leeds bound track and apparently ready to install in the near future.

Has anyone worked out what changes to the signalling will be made? Presumably a down train will have to be held south of the platform if a train from East Lancs towards Manchester is crossing the viaduct. to allow for the overlap.

 

[Signal Head]

Visited Tod today. The cross over is now in, on a slight curve between the platforms and the viaduct, and so a Manchester train coming off the curve will run 'wrong line' over the viaduct. The turn out for the curve off the down line north of the viaduct is assembled beside the Leeds bound track and apparently ready to install in the near future.

Has anyone worked out what changes to the signalling will be made? Presumably a down train will have to be held south of the platform if a train from East Lancs towards Manchester is crossing the viaduct. to allow for the overlap.

Yes, although the signal could have gone on the platform end right next to the crossover, the overlap only has to be 'held' while the train is approaching. Once it has come to a stand at the signal the overlap can be released and a conflicting route set up. In this case a Down train could arrive and stand in the platform, then a move could be signalled from the curve to the Up line, but you cannot make the two movements at the same time.

The other problem here is the distance to the signal ahead (protecting Hall Royd), which isn't very far from the station. I suspect the braking distances wouldn't have worked very well with the signal on the end of the platform.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just noticed NR have issued a PR piece about the Todmorden curve. The bit about future services isn't too specific about dates...

The new rail service between (Manchester) Todmorden and Blackburn will be supported by a partnership that includes Lancashire County Council and Burnley Borough Council. Initial plans are for an hourly service operating 7 days a week.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-boost-Lancashire-s-growing-railway-1ed3.aspx

 

[Sox]

Take the Witch Way from East Lancashire to Manchester

……….Rail bosses have admitted that a lack of diesel trains will see the anticipated East Lancashire to Manchester Victoria route delayed until at least December 2014.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10779818.Take_the_Witch_Way_from_East_Lancashire_to_Manchester/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10779818.Take_the_Witch_Way_from_East_Lancashire_to_Manchester/

Transdev could not have wished for a more opportune time to announce their fleet of 15 new "Witch Way" buses, with the proposed rail service put back to December 2014.

Fourteen more months in which to strengthen their hold on this market.

 

[northwichcat]

Transdev could not have wished for a more opportune time to announce their fleet of 15 new "Witch Way" buses, with the proposed rail service put back to December 2014.

Fourteen more months in which to strengthen their hold on this market.

The rail service will be useful to people making onward rail connections, with luggage or bikes.

Currently the Witch Way is included in the validity of the TfGM Wayfarer ticket: http://tfgm.com/journey_planning/Documents/PDFMaps/Wayfarer-bus-map.pdf

Although, by rail the validity ends at Littleborough: http://tfgm.com/journey_planning/Documents/PDFMaps/Wayfarer-Rail-diagram.pdf

I wonder if that will change or not?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The rail service will be useful to people making onward rail connections, with luggage or bikes.

This did not seem to bother Northern Rail overmuch when they blithely announced they would have no rolling stock to run the service in May 2014.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Currently the Witch Way is included in the validity of the TfGM Wayfarer ticket: http://tfgm.com/journey_planning/Documents/PDFMaps/Wayfarer-bus-map.pdf

Although, by rail the validity ends at Littleborough: http://tfgm.com/journey_planning/Documents/PDFMaps/Wayfarer-Rail-diagram.pdf....I wonder if that will change or not?

Whilst living in an area exterior to the TfGM empire, which currently allows passengers in Littleborough with an ENTCS pass issued in the TfGM area free rail travel after 0930 Monday to Friday and all day Saturday, Sunday and Bank Holidays, to destinations as far flung as Glazebrook, Blackrod, Appley Bridge, Bryn, Bromley Cross, Hale, Glossop/Hadfield and Greenfield, I have been assured by TfGM that they will not be extending their allowable rail journey area.

The next two railway stations after Littleborough, being those of Walsden and Todmorden currently display the Metro symbols. I know that whilst both Walsden and Todmorden were once part of the medieval Hundred of Salford, I know of no current border re-drawing that will bring both of these two areas in the "opposition TfGM camp".

 

[northwichcat]

The next two railway stations after Littleborough, being those of Walsden and Todmorden currently display the Metro symbols. I know that whilst both Walsden and Todmorden were once part of the medieval Hundred of Salford, I know of no current border re-drawing that will bring both of these two areas in the "opposition TfGM camp".

I was talking about the Wayfarer ticket opposed to the over 60s/disabled passes.

I also was going to suggest TfGM wouldn't extend the Wayfarer beyond Littleborough because Todmorden is in the Metro area. However, I remembered the Wayfarer didn't use to include Warrington Bank Quay to Manchester because of intermediate stations being in Merseyside but they eventually added it.

 

[LeylandLen]

Same for Chorley which is in Lancashire ; although car park is relatively small and gets full easily .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was talking about the Wayfarer ticket opposed to the over 60s/disabled passes.

I really must spend more time reading the text of postings during this time when my medication has an affect upon my cognitive thinking capacity..

However I am sure that the very final part of your posting did make a specific mention of rail validity and of Littleborough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Same for Chorley which is in Lancashire ; although car park is relatively small and gets full easily .

Welcome to the website. Having Chorley on this ticket does indeed offer residents from there an opportunity to visit the many settlements that is covered by that ticket. Having the modern bus station across the road from the railway station does enable the use of the rail services allowed from Chorley station.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Maybe while TfGM are talking about cross-boundary travel into West Yorkshire they can sort out the Greenfield-Marsden farce?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Maybe while TfGM are talking about cross-boundary travel into West Yorkshire they can sort out the Greenfield-Marsden farce?

They'll probably just make sure that the calling patterns of the new TPE semi-fasts will all go Slawit-Greenfield or Marsden-Mossley & vice-versa... :roll:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Maybe while TfGM are talking about cross-boundary travel into West Yorkshire they can sort out the Greenfield-Marsden farce?

farce?

 

[AndyHudds]

farce?

Its the most expensive one stop ticket price apparently for the mileage between the two stations, summat like that anyway.

Just checked a return ticket is £6 for 8 minutes and its only 7.5 miles.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Its the most expensive one stop ticket price apparently for the mileage between the two stations, summat like that anyway.

Oh right i see fair enough. Ta.