TPE kicks woman and child off train

[junglejames]

With Lucy saying 'last year' under a recent post I assumed it was a different incident. However, the person who made the original post is friends with Lucy on Facebook, so it looks like it could be her friend making a fuss on her behalf.

They have only just become friends, so probaly linked to the fuss being made.
At first i wasnt sure how many incidents were being talked about, but looking again, it must just be the one. There are too many similarities. If it was 2, then both incidents were exactly the same. Both time a mother and child. Both times chucked off for not having a railcard. Both times had no money or phone. Both times at an unstaffed station at night.

Nope, must just be the one incident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But you would at least offer part payment rather than nothing at all.

Once again, someone assuming Lucy is just lying the whole way through. Give the lass a break. As soon as you can prove she is lying, then by all means carry on, but you cant.
You dont know what she offered. You dont know what she said. In fact, the only info you have to go on, is that she did offer to pay, just later on.
By all means take it with a pinch of salt, like i am, but dont just assume she is lying.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I find it very hard to believe that anyone these days would leave the house and not be carrying any money at all, not even a debit/credit card

Ive gone to the shop with no money before. Now what if that shop had been a train. I could easily have been on the train with no money.

 

[Mike395]

Children and people on lower incomes who aren't allowed credit are given Electron or Solo cards which aren't usually accepted to purchase train tickets. They can make a cash withdrawal using them, assuming there is a working cash machine nearby.

Off-topic but Solo now has been phased out entirely - and some Electron cards have also been converted - in favour of Visa Debit cards with a £0 offline authorisation limit. Whilst I am yet to find a TVM that doesn't take my online-only Visa Debit card, it is not usable onboard - we do not know if the person concerned had one of these

 

[VP185]

I'm not accusing her of lying as such, but I don't believe for one minute she is telling everyone the full story.

I just think that large parts of her story simply do not add up. At the end of the day, it's her word against the Traincrew. CCTV will not conclusively prove what happened, unless maybe if it records sound. For example, Lucy could of asked the guard to take her stuff off

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....You dont know what she offered. You dont know what she said. In fact, the only info you have to go on, is that she did offer to pay, just later on.
By all means take it with a pinch of salt, like i am, but dont just assume she is lying....

She admits to having no money and claims that she had no phone, yet she was certain someone she claims was meeting her at the station could pay for her. For me, it'd be quite a large pinch of salt, but as I have mentioned before we just don't know enough about the situation. Imo, there is a reason for that, and I think that it is because they don't want to say more because anything else would point to them being in the wrong at some point beyond not having the railcard.

 

[junglejames]

I'm not accusing her of lying as such, but I don't believe for one minute she is telling everyone the full story.

I just think that large parts of her story simply do not add up. At the end of the day, it's her word against the Traincrew. CCTV will not conclusively prove what happened, unless maybe if it records sound. For example, Lucy could of asked the guard to take her stuff off

But for all we know, she did offer to pay, but later on. Your comment made out as if she never wanted to pay full stop. It may be true, but we have no information to prove this.

 

[DavidBusDriver]

Indeed, I can never use my card on-board trains and now that makes sense why.. really need to persuade my bank to let me have a better card!! Anyways way off topic there!

I'm really not sure where I stand on this, as someone rightly says social media can equal instant vilification no matter what the facts are, though I do think stranding a child in the middle of nowhere with its mother is something that should be a VERY last resort, don't really deal with ticketing but surely an unpaid fares notice or similar would have been offered first... sounds like there might have been a lot of escalation.

Feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with revenue, really must be one of the most thankless jobs on the network!

 

[Anon Mouse]

we don't know what was offered or indeed if she was willing to give or had given a correct address. Nobody knows the full story as only one side of an incomplete story has been offered. Again as I said last night, just because she was an adult with a small child does not automatically make her an honest, upstanding and decent citizen. We don't know the full facts no matter which side we find ourselves naturally drawn too. Often the complaint that comes in about an incident is not 100% correct with the complainat adding things or forgetting things that have a bearing on the outcome.

 

[EM2]

The fact that TPE have already mentioned that Passenger Focus said that they are supportive of TPE's enquiry in to what happened, and the conclusions reached, suggests that the guard did everything right.

 

[junglejames]

The fact that TPE have already mentioned that Passenger Focus said that they are supportive of TPE's enquiry in to what happened, and the conclusions reached, suggests that the guard did everything right.

Where did they say this? I know ive seen someone else on here say that, but i never saw it myself.

 

[khib70]

Where did they say this? I know ive seen someone else on here say that, but i never saw it myself.

I think a fair few people on here had already decided the guard did everything right before any evidence at all was available.

When (if) we have the full story the rest of us can make up our minds. But if we decide the guard is right, it'll be because he was right, not because he was the guard.

 

[SS4]

I think a fair few people on here had already decided the guard did everything right before any evidence at all was available.

When (if) we have the full story the rest of us can make up our minds. But if we decide the guard is right, it'll be because he was right, not because he was the guard.

I can only speak for myself but I consider that given what we know it is more likely that the guard acted correctly.
We will never know the full facts so we have to reach a decision based on balance of probabilities, this could well include what the customer did not say.

 

[EM2]

Where did they say this? I know ive seen someone else on here say that, but i never saw it myself.

Top of page 2 in this thread shows a quote from FTPE.

 

[junglejames]

Top of page 2 in this thread shows a quote from FTPE.

Yeah i saw that. Just couldnt see wherte it came from on FB.

One interesting thing i have seen though. When this Emma first brought the subject up, and Lucy came on and said it had happened to her. FTPE responded to Emma asking her about it, but totally ignored Lucy.
Did seem a bit odd. But could be anything.

 

[90019]

I think a fair few people on here had already decided the guard did everything right before any evidence at all was available.

Meanwhile, some others have decided that the passenger must be telling the truth, and isn't withholding any information at all.

 

[PSD]

If you hav'nt got the money to purchase a ticket before you travel, then it's not the TOC's fault, people seem to think that TOC's as well as other companies are charities that can be paid whenever, just to suit the customer

 

[DownSouth]

Yeah i saw that. Just couldnt see wherte it came from on FB.

It was there in a post from FTPE, it's probably disappeared off the first page by now.

 

[4SRKT]

Meanwhile, some others have decided that the passenger must be telling the truth, and isn't withholding any information at all.

Which in the world of ner-ner 'debate' and two wrongs make a right neatly proves that the guard was 100% right.

 

[lucyc2014]

Ok here i am writing this before the school run. I've had very little sleep as i stayed up way past my bedtime reading an old thread on this site that i somehow stumbled upon last night. I have never used this site before and it was while completing a completely different search that i found this....http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60937.
When i did get to sleep, i dreamt about being on the train again, as i have many times, trying to find the conductor to reason with her. So here i am, up bright and early wide awake ready to tell you all the full facts. I know a lot of you will think perhaps there's no point after all this time. After all - it's over two years ago now!! Bit crazy-obsessive! But things stick with me, thats just the kind of person i am, and there was never any resolution to this situation at the time. For ages it consumed me -the complaints procedure, the appeals process, passenger focus not being able to help, the blatent lies told by FTPE staff, and then months later as a final cathartic rant - the facebook posts.
As you may have gathered i'm the 'mother' that got kicked off. Silly female in her mid 20's, sleep deprived mum of a two year old (at the time) and stupid enough to leave her railcard at home!! Yeah, i know pretty dense eh? Yet there has always been something about my situation that screamed LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! Some parts of the story/truth seem too far-fetched to be the truth. I'm not a liar though - actually i'm one of the most honest people you can meet. Perhaps this is why i have not been able to let go of this for so long, as i've always been a firm believer that the truth will out. In my case it did not. So all i'm going to do now is list the facts, from the top.....

I've held a railcard for years, i use it regularly. I pre-booked my tickets online to save money as i always do. £7.50 with railcard £8.20 without. I opted for railcard as it saved me 70 pence. Looking back i should not have - i didn't need it really, i didn't need a ticket for my son it was just cheaper to use the railcard. Please be aware that i was very skint at the time. Very, very skint.

After the weekend at my mothers i boarded train with my son, (not at night, as some have said - this is a mistake as it was around 3pm)

When the conductor came round i realised i had not got my railcard, so i appologised and started to panic. The conductor asked me to pay the difference. I got my bank card out to pay then realised there was only a few pounds left in my account as i'd bought something earlier in the day. I apologised and asked if i could leave my details and pay later as i had no money at all on me.

The conductor said no, i had to leave at the next stop. I then started to think about my partner meeting me at my destination and not being able to contact him or anyone else as my phone battery ran dead over the weekend.

I started crying, and panicking and begged the conductor to let me stay on the train. I said my partner was meeting me and would have money on him to pay. I said i had no way of contacting anyone, or no money.

In no way was i abusive. At one point the conductor did ask me to stop shouting, saying she was just doing her job. All i was shouting/crying was please, please!! Nothing abusive or offensive - just desperate.

As soon as the doors opened she asked if i would like her to take my bags, to which i said no, please let me stay on. She then took my bags and put them on the platfom, leaving myself and pushchair + child on the train, and my bags on the platform. With precious little time to make a decision i got off the train and knocked on the drivers window, pleading with him to help. He could not.

The station i was detrained at was unmanned - something that should not have happened as it is against FTPE policy. The only phone was a phonecard one that i could not use.

For a while my partner was panicking wondering where we were, as he'd rang my mother who said i went to the station. Then they were both panicking and trying to ring me to find out what had happened. It was not until i found a stranger in the village that i was able to borrow some change to use the phone and put their minds at rest.

To those of you already thinking 'rules are rules, no special treatment deserved etc' well i say fair enough! However a lot of lies were told in this case, in fact policy was not followed - and that's why the staff had to lie. I received substandard treatment in this case. I got treated worse than i was meant to be treated. In the same situation, with a different conductor, anybody else would have been allowed to stay on the train. (man, woman, dog, whoever)

I will continue with the shambolic complaints procedure this afternoon when i get back from work.........
ps.thanks for reading - i don't hope to achieve anything other than give those of you that were interested in the case at the time, my side of the story. Thats all.

 

[falcon]

What is the position regarding your complaint? if it is two years ago and you are still proceeding can you elaborate on what you have done and what FTPE have said.
There is some legal information on this type of thing and don't worry about FTPE policy there is the law of the land which their employees and FTP have to adhere to.Just tell us what has gone on so far with your complaint.

 

[tony6499]

When the conductor came round i realised i had not got my railcard, so i appologised and started to panic. The conductor asked me to pay the difference. I got my bank card out to pay then realised there was only a few pounds left in my account as i'd bought something earlier in the day. I apologised and asked if i could leave my details and pay later as i had no money at all on me.
.

This is the reason here then, you refused to pay the difference

 

[8J]

Discretion should have been used. But TOC's are bad at compensating passengers for complaints about staff. Ive had similar issues with a virgin train manager who was walking through a 9 car pendo from Lime St causing trouble. Shouting at passengers for looking at her funny. Its your word against hers. Id give up and continue with life though

 

[Moonshot]

FAO Lucy......I take it you did open an appeal with Passenger Focus? Its what they exist for.....and i would have thought you would have got a reply by now.

 

[Kryten2340]

This is the reason here then, you refused to pay the difference

Where in the quote does it say she refused? Unless I'm missing something Lucy has said she only had a few pounds in the bank but we don't know how much the fare was.

 

[falcon]

This is the reason here then, you refused to pay the difference

The thing is from the statement she made.She offers here details and that is so a bill can be sent at a later date.So she did not refuse.

Just for clarification the railways act 1889 sec 5 states that no offense is committed if a person offers there name and address.

The guard has no legal power to remove or interfere with people belongings and commits and offense by doing so. It is a civil tort of trespass and a statutory offense to interfere with peoples property.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_in_English_law




TPE could be sued as could the Guard on an individual bases. If TPE did not accept liability for the Guards actions saying"we tell all our Guards to take the name and address of people who have the wrong tickets,the Guard has gone against the instructions we have given and gone of on a frolic of their own"

It would not be nice for TPE if she issued a County Court summons for trespass against her property. Picking people property up and putting it on the platform without their authority can mean big trouble.

It looks as though it has blown over because the victim did not know how to proceed.

 

[Moonshot]

The thing is from the statement she made.She offers here details and that is so a bill can be sent at a later date.So she did not refuse.

Just for clarification the railways act 1889 sec 5 states that no offense is committed if a person offers there name and address.

The guard has no legal power to remove or interfere with people belongings and commits and offense by doing so. It is a civil tort of trespass and a statutory offense to interfere with peoples property.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_in_English_law




TPE could be sued as could the Guard on an individual bases. If TPE did not accept liability for the Guards actions saying"we tell all our Guards to take the name and address of people who have the wrong tickets,the Guard has gone against the instructions we have given and gone of on a frolic of their own"

It would not be nice for TPE if she issued a County Court summons for trespass against her property. Picking people property up and putting it on the platform without their authority can mean big trouble.

It looks as though it has blown over because the victim did not know how to proceed.

I ve just had a look at the facebook post from that .....and I note the following from TPE

Whilst we will not discuss individual complaints in detail, it is worth noting that the issue in question was reported to us, a full investigation was carried out and the findings provided to Passenger Focus, who independently agreed with our assessment of the situation.

So as a few have pointed out on this thread, it seems there is a bit more to this than meets the eye......

 

[tony6499]

Where in the quote does it say she refused? Unless I'm missing something Lucy has said she only had a few pounds in the bank but we don't know how much the fare was.

She said she had money in the bank but didn't want to pay so asked to pay later. If you have the funds then you pay or you pay at least part of it

 

[ClevedonYellow]

Ok here i am writing this before the school run. I've had very little sleep as i stayed up way past my bedtime reading an old thread on this site that i somehow stumbled upon last night. I have never used this site before and it was while completing a completely different search that i found this....http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60937.
When i did get to sleep, i dreamt about being on the train again, as i have many times, trying to find the conductor to reason with her. So here i am, up bright and early wide awake ready to tell you all the full facts. I know a lot of you will think perhaps there's no point after all this time. After all - it's over two years ago now!! Bit crazy-obsessive! But things stick with me, thats just the kind of person i am, and there was never any resolution to this situation at the time. For ages it consumed me -the complaints procedure, the appeals process, passenger focus not being able to help, the blatent lies told by FTPE staff, and then months later as a final cathartic rant - the facebook posts.
As you may have gathered i'm the 'mother' that got kicked off. Silly female in her mid 20's, sleep deprived mum of a two year old (at the time) and stupid enough to leave her railcard at home!! Yeah, i know pretty dense eh? Yet there has always been something about my situation that screamed LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! Some parts of the story/truth seem too far-fetched to be the truth. I'm not a liar though - actually i'm one of the most honest people you can meet. Perhaps this is why i have not been able to let go of this for so long, as i've always been a firm believer that the truth will out. In my case it did not. So all i'm going to do now is list the facts, from the top.....

I've held a railcard for years, i use it regularly. I pre-booked my tickets online to save money as i always do. £7.50 with railcard £8.20 without. I opted for railcard as it saved me 70 pence. Looking back i should not have - i didn't need it really, i didn't need a ticket for my son it was just cheaper to use the railcard. Please be aware that i was very skint at the time. Very, very skint.

After the weekend at my mothers i boarded train with my son, (not at night, as some have said - this is a mistake as it was around 3pm)

When the conductor came round i realised i had not got my railcard, so i appologised and started to panic. The conductor asked me to pay the difference. I got my bank card out to pay then realised there was only a few pounds left in my account as i'd bought something earlier in the day. I apologised and asked if i could leave my details and pay later as i had no money at all on me.

The conductor said no, i had to leave at the next stop. I then started to think about my partner meeting me at my destination and not being able to contact him or anyone else as my phone battery ran dead over the weekend.

I started crying, and panicking and begged the conductor to let me stay on the train. I said my partner was meeting me and would have money on him to pay. I said i had no way of contacting anyone, or no money.

In no way was i abusive. At one point the conductor did ask me to stop shouting, saying she was just doing her job. All i was shouting/crying was please, please!! Nothing abusive or offensive - just desperate.

As soon as the doors opened she asked if i would like her to take my bags, to which i said no, please let me stay on. She then took my bags and put them on the platfom, leaving myself and pushchair + child on the train, and my bags on the platform. With precious little time to make a decision i got off the train and knocked on the drivers window, pleading with him to help. He could not.

The station i was detrained at was unmanned - something that should not have happened as it is against FTPE policy. The only phone was a phonecard one that i could not use.

For a while my partner was panicking wondering where we were, as he'd rang my mother who said i went to the station. Then they were both panicking and trying to ring me to find out what had happened. It was not until i found a stranger in the village that i was able to borrow some change to use the phone and put their minds at rest.

To those of you already thinking 'rules are rules, no special treatment deserved etc' well i say fair enough! However a lot of lies were told in this case, in fact policy was not followed - and that's why the staff had to lie. I received substandard treatment in this case. I got treated worse than i was meant to be treated. In the same situation, with a different conductor, anybody else would have been allowed to stay on the train. (man, woman, dog, whoever)

I will continue with the shambolic complaints procedure this afternoon when i get back from work.........
ps.thanks for reading - i don't hope to achieve anything other than give those of you that were interested in the case at the time, my side of the story. Thats all.

Lucy, I am sure that your experience was not one that you would wish to repeat and one that the company would not like you to go through, However with the fact that you COULDNOT produce your railcard when required to to a member of Railway staff, your ticket is INVALID. This is one of the rules of railway tickets. It is the same with buses and any other form of transport (Such as if you get on an aircraft with an INVALID ticket) You could have reasoned with the conductor and they may have taken pity on you and let you contact your partner to arrange alternative transport or to meet and pay the full fare at the final destination. (We are a friendly bunch and are normally willing to help when people treat us nicely and show us some respect.)

Unfortunately the conductor on your train thought that you couldn't assure them that a full fare would be paid and therefore as per the RuleBook, They would have to remove you from the train. If they didn't they would be at risk of losing their job as to helping fare evaders, as you are travelling with an invalid ticket. (They have to think about the overall factors of the situation)

In the case of your complaint to FTPE they will have to side with their staff as they have gone down the route of the rule book and have done nothing wrong.

I hope that this experience doesn't put you off using rail travel but makes you think carefully about the implications of the other side of the party when you are putting them in a position of making you happy or following the rules.

^TB

 

[Kryten2340]

She said she had money in the bank but didn't want to pay so asked to pay later. If you have the funds then you pay or you pay at least part of it

Sorry, I stand corrected. If the difference was only 70p why refuse the payment.

 

[tony6499]

Sorry, I stand corrected. If the difference was only 70p why refuse the payment.

That's what I didn't understand and maybe why she was asked to leave the train

 

[Moonshot]

That's what I didn't understand and maybe why she was asked to leave the train

Makes you wonder why a kind hearted fellow passenger didnt actually offer to pay the 70p if non payment actually meant a mother and child being turfed off the train.....?