FGW to convert First Class carriages

[YorkshireBear]

This time I travelled down on SWT and got picked up at Exeter if that is okay with everyone! :roll:

No it is not. You drive for SWT in and out of Waterloo, how very dare you catch a train anywhere else!!!!!! Heathen!

At the end of the day i do not see the issue they are increasing capacity...

 

[jopsuk]

Of course the best solution would have been additional coach

Whilst I had my question as to whether it would be technically feasible to go to 9 coach answered (it is yes), no-one picked up on the point as to whether there are 54 spare Mark 3 carriages that could be used (knowing that buffets are indeed useable) to convert, especially with Chiltern converting more to their spec.

It's all very well to say "add more carriages", but in this case they have to already exist.

 

[Goatboy]

So what else do you suggest FGW should do to cope with demand in the Thames Valley then? And I can assure you there are lots of very busy HSTs running to places beyond Reading as well, with lots of the people getting off there replaced by people getting on, who commute in and out of Reading, never mind those travelling for other reasons.

I don't profess to know the answer, I just profess to be irritated at the change in service provision to satisfy the needs of people who choose to live hours from where they work so they can benefit from both London wages and Oxfordshire/Home Counties living.

I've no idea what the solution is, I'm being entirely selfish - I regularly travel First to London and with the reduction in capacity and obvious increase in the price of Advance First tickets probably won't be able to in the future. I usually happily pay double the price of the Standard Class Advance to travel on a First Advance. I can't see how this is going to result in anything other than higher prices to discourage demand and First Class isn't worth 3 or 4 times the price of Standard so that'll be that.

A real shame that those of us from the Westcountry will face a reduced opportunity to travel First whilst those from the Midlands continue to benefit from 25p First Advances on 500 coach Pendo's full of fresh air.

I'm ranting - it doesn't need to be thought out or coherent.

In an ideal world we could stick the commuters on commuter trains and have Reading set down/pickup only for long distance Intercity services
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...but that isn't even a plural. "Once, a few months ago." :roll:

I guess there is always the possibility that it was a completely atypical weekday peak where everyone who lived beyond Reading and commuted had Annual Leave but nobody who lived in Reading did, I suppose.

I believe our resident FGW train manager has commented in the past that most of the 'overcrowding' is perceived overcrowding from Reading commuters who won't move to the end of the train etc.

 

[jimm]

Because I travel down to the West Country quite a lot and normally go via Reading and use FGW, not that it is any of your concern! :roll:

Oh if anyone is interested 42517 was seen on the A38 near Buckfastleigh heading North on a low loader about 12 oclock.

This time I travelled down on SWT and got picked up at Exeter if that is okay with everyone! :roll:

Fair enough, but that is just one of a number of routes that FGW operates with its HSTs and patterns of use on one do not necessarily reflect what is happening on others - eg places where first advances are not sold, or where business traffic fell in 2008-9 and has simply not come back. Things you are probably not going to observe from the cab of a 455 on SWT.


On the route I use, and to be more specific, the train I got home tonight, which had two-and-a-bit first class coaches, so 100-plus seats, there were all of three passengers on board when it departed from the station I get off at, just over 100 minutes out of London after departing at the height of the evening peak - which is entirely typical of first class loads for that service. If I go into London on a Saturday using weekend first, the number of first class passengers in either direction, on the busiest part of the journey, would fit into half a coach.

I don't profess to know the answer, I just profess to be irritated at the change in service provision to satisfy the needs of people who choose to live hours from where they work so they can benefit from both London wages and Oxfordshire/Home Counties living.

Since when has Reading been "hours from where people work" in the case of London commuters? It was the very fact that the HST made it possible to get to and from London in just over 20 minutes at Reading, and slashed journey times to places further out, like Bath, that fuelled longer-distance commuting in the first place.

You may want a first class seat but there are a lot of FGW passengers in the Thames Valley - and further out on some services - who would just like a seat. This change will help a few more of them achieve that modest ambition more often.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I guess there is always the possibility that it was a completely atypical weekday peak where everyone who lived beyond Reading and commuted had Annual Leave but nobody who lived in Reading did, I suppose.

I believe our resident FGW train manager has commented in the past that most of the 'overcrowding' is perceived overcrowding from Reading commuters who won't move to the end of the train etc.

Nope. Full and standing is reasonably common to Oxford, and can reach a couple of stops up the Cotswold Line too (I've seen it at Kingham on occasion). It's far from just a Reading issue.

 

[Goatboy]

Nope. Full and standing is reasonably common to Oxford, and can reach a couple of stops up the Cotswold Line too (I've seen it at Kingham on occasion). It's far from just a Reading issue.

No idea about Oxford, not a line I use. But this change is affecting the trains via the Berks and Hants too, where it doesnt seem like trains are full and standing past Reading.

 

[Greenback]

To be honest, I think FGW is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. It's never going to please everyone. As has been m,entioend already, business travel in first class fell when the recession caused the public sector to ban first class travel, and the private sector cut it back considerably.

We simply don't know how this affected revenue in first class, but it is logical to assume that many of the passengers who did travel in first downgraded to standard. When I have travelled in first it has been on cheaper Advance tickets, and, although the accommodation has been well used on every occasion, I don't know if the total revenue from the first class section would actually equate to any more than a couple of full first returns from Swansea to Paddington!

So if this is based on a business analysis of revenue and capacity then fair enough. If it is, however, the result of an instruction from DfT based on overcrowding statistics from Oxford and Swindon, then the decision is an emotional one rather than a logical one.

I have the feeling though, that it's a bit of both, and that the TOC and DfT have agreed to this plan as a stop gap before the next generation of rolling stock will provide a capacity increase, although this may well only be a brief respite if demand continues to increase.

 

[LexyBoy]

Some of the B&H services, especially shoulder-peak, are full and standing to Exeter. GWML services slightly better, some seats available after Didcot/Swindon.

There has been pressure from passenger groups to do this, so FGW are clearly hoping that it will boost their reputation somewhat (good luck with that). Most of the anti camp here complain that the availability of cheap First Class tickets will be affected, whilst it is commuters who both complain hardest and contribute the most money, thus it is not unreasonable to expect them to be listened to.

Hopefully post-Crossrail and IEP we will have considerably more fast commuting capacity in the form of Thames Valley fasts which will soak up some of the capacity, allowing long distance services to be more "intercity". And we can but hope that IEP will have better Standard Class interiors than the current HSTs.

 

[Greenback]

There has been pressure from passenger groups to do this, so FGW are clearly hoping that it will boost their reputation somewhat (good luck with that). Most of the anti camp here complain that the availability of cheap First Class tickets will be affected, whilst it is commuters who both complain hardest and contribute the most money, thus it is not unreasonable to expect them to be listened to.

My concern is that revenue will be affected in a negative way. If those remaining first class commuters (I know there used to be quite a few at Reading who chose to pay more for the additional chance of getting a seat) now feel it is not worth the additional outlay, and downgrade, then there will be no real benefit regarding overcrowding as the additional capacity will mostly be taken up by those who used the first class space anyway.

I suspect that should this happen, it will not be felt immediately, but will be more gradual.

I commuted briefly from Reading to Paddington as long ago as 1998. I never got a seat in standard, so this is not a new problem! It was horrible, and not something I would choose to do for any length of time.

However, I don't think that any one group of passengers should have more or less say than any other. I would hope that the decision has been taken with more of a startegic view than just the views of passenger groups from Oxford, Didcot, Swindon and Reading.

Hopefully post-Crossrail and IEP we will have considerably more fast commuting capacity in the form of Thames Valley fasts which will soak up some of the capacity, allowing long distance services to be more "intercity". And we can but hope that IEP will have better Standard Class interiors than the current HSTs.

Amen to that!

 

[YorkshireBear]

What potential is there for service frequency increases to try and shift commuter demand from long distance services? This is post upgrade with ETRMS, IEP, Electrification and presumed 110-116mph EMUs on Thames Valley services.

 

[TEW]

Little. Long distance services are always going to take up the majority of the paths of the main lines. The GWML RUS suggests running additional fast services formed of EMUs, either to Reading or potentially Basingstoke. But without building an additional two tracks the majority of the fast service between Reading and London will have to provided by long distance services. Some of the available capacity after upgrades between Reading and Paddington is already earmarked for an extra 2 trains per hour to Bristol remember.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Little. Long distance services are always going to take up the majority of the paths of the main lines. The GWML RUS suggests running additional fast services formed of EMUs, either to Reading or potentially Basingstoke. But without building an additional two tracks the majority of the fast service between Reading and London will have to provided by long distance services. Some of the available capacity after upgrades between Reading and Paddington is already earmarked for an extra 2 trains per hour to Bristol remember.

Of course... Thank you for reminding me of that fact. The more i sit and think about the GWML, the more i think HS3 isn't as far away as some may think.... Imagine the commuter potential on the GWML if we removed all the fasts. But i digress this is now way off topic.

I was mainly suggesting/hoping that 110-116mph EMUs would be easier to path than Turbos and we may be able to get a few more paths for commuter services.

Although having seen the GWML one thing we could do of course is increase train lengths... we still have scope for that on the Thames Valley and Long distance services.

 

[JamesRowden]

What potential is there for service frequency increases to try and shift commuter demand from long distance services? This is post upgrade with ETRMS, IEP, Electrification and presumed 110-116mph EMUs on Thames Valley services.

The London and South East RUS recommends that the present peak 15tph fast tracks service in/out of Paddington (11tph to Reading, 4tph to Heathrow) shoud be raised to 20tph (16tph to Reading, 4tph to Heathrow) with the extra paths being used by Thames Valley EMUs. There is the further option that it suggests to have the Heathrow Express services displaced during the peak by a 4tph fast Paddington to Reading shuttle service with 2tph continuing to Basingstoke. Looking at the publications I have seen I think that the 16tph might be formed of the following:

• 1tph Cotswalds (IEP)
• 1tph Cheltenham (IEP)
• 1tph Swansea (IEP)
• 2tph Cardiff (IEP)
• 2tph Fast Bristol(-Weston Super Mare) (IEP)
• 2tph Bristol via Bath (IEP)
• 1tph Plymouth(-Penzanace) (HST)
• 1tph Oxford (EMU)
• 2tph Oxford (stopper west of Reading) (EMU)
• 1tph Westbury (IEP)
• 2tph Newbury (stopper west of Reading) (EMU)

That's 10tph Long Distance and 6tph Thames Valley which matches what the RUS suggested.

 

[jopsuk]

What's the Oxford service pattern? Oxford as a city has a direct comparison with Cambridge- similar size (Oxford is bigger), similar distance from London, similar demographics. Off peak Cambridge has, hourly
2x non-stop (one through to/from Kings Lynn)- either 80m or 160m long (4/8 cars)
1x semi-fast (80/160m)
1x "stopper" (80m)

Peak, the "fasts" do have Royston stops, but are up to 12-car (240m).

the Oxford HSTs are 8-car, which is 184m. The slows can be as short as 3-car, yes? which is 69m.

(there's other odd factors between the Cambridge & Oxford routes. Cambridge has a second, slower route to London also running 4/8/12 car trains, whilst the coach service to London is rubbish, as getting to central London from the M11 via Stratford is never going to be fun. Oxford meanwhile will be gaining a second route, but meanwhile has a superb coach service which runs pretty well to Victoria. Also, Kings Cross and Liverpool Street are better situated or better connected for the major commuter job centres than Paddington is (and Marylebone, future services)

 

[TEW]

Off-Peak Oxford has:
2 fasts (roughly 1 per hour extended to the Cotswold line) calling at Slough and Reading. One train per two hours towards Oxford only also calls at Didcot Parkway. They use a variety of stock, but mainly 3-car Turbos and 180s Off-Peak with a couple of HSTs.
2 stoppers which use mainly 3-car Turbos Off-Peak

There are also 2 Voyagers every hour to Reading.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If it is, however, the result of an instruction from DfT based on overcrowding statistics from Oxford and Swindon, then the decision is an emotional one rather than a logical one.

Given David Cameron's constituency includes Charlbury and West Oxfordshire, I suspect I know which of those two options it will be...

 

[D6975]

The idea that there are 'more seats up the train' certainly hasn't been true on my recent return trips from Pad to TM.
The last time I was in coach A, so right at the far end. The coach was so full that my 7 year old son couldn't manage to fight his way through to the toilet. He had to hold on until after Didcot. The train was still full and standing, but at least he could get through by then.

Bring back the first stop Chippenham like we used to have....

 

[Bishopstone]

Given David Cameron's constituency includes Charlbury and West Oxfordshire, I suspect I know which of those two options it will be...

Is there any evidence this change results from an intervention by Cameron?

However, even if that were the case, one of the biggest criticisms of Cameron is that he is 'out of touch' with ordinary people because his parents chose to send him to a good school, he was a member of an eccentric drinking club at Oxford and has appointed several old Etonians to senior positions in Government.

If Cameron's constituents are writing to him to complain about routine over-crowding in Standard, it is perfectly proper for him to make representations to the DfT on their behalf, as any MP can do.

If Cameron had replied to his constituents along the lines some here would have liked, ie:

'There is no problem. You just need to move down the train. We have to ensure people from Worcester travelling on First Class Advances for £50 don't have to share a bay of seats with strangers'

...then he would have stood accused of being an 'out of touch' toff, again.

Bear in mind that if Cameron uses the train to get to Oxfordshire, it will be First Class, so the self-interested decision of he and his toff friends would have been to do nothing and stick with 2.5 coaches of sparsely populated First. Yet the decision has gone the other way.

I'm not a great fan of Cameron, and I go along with the 'wicked Tories' criticisms in some areas of policy, but 'wicked Tories made me pay more for First Class/made me share a '4' with strangers' is verging on the surreal.

Two final points:

1. If we're going to try and politicise this, are any of the other parties in favour of keeping the status quo?

2. You get a distorted view amongst rail enthusiasts, because it's our hobby and we (me included) like the occasional First Class treat, with lashings of complimentaries in a coach as quiet as possible. The reality is that most 'ordinary' folk, particularly family groups, struggle to afford Standard fares and could not dream of going First Class. It is right that these people are the focus of attention at the DfT.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any evidence this change results from an intervention by Cameron?

None whatsoever I'd expect.

Probably just typical conspiracy theory - as if every MP gave a dam about their local rail issues...

 

[Greenback]

It has emerged form the discussion about whether the DfT have ordered the change, FGW requested it, or some sort of discussion took place between the two parties as to how to increase both capacity and revenue.

It is a bit of a leap to suggest that David Cameron became personally involved, though maybe he hasn't got much else to do at the moment?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Probably just typical conspiracy theory - as if every MP gave a dam about their local rail issues...

Cameron does - he called two public meetings in Charlbury to haul FGW over the coals for the (then) abysmal punctuality on the Cotswold Line. Shortly afterwards, the redoubling was announced.

(But no, I don't think he's had anything to do with the First Class conversions.)

 

[Taunton]

Cameron does - he called two public meetings in Charlbury to haul FGW over the coals for the (then) abysmal punctuality on the Cotswold Line. Shortly afterwards, the redoubling was announced.

I can only quote Gerry Fiennes (as ever) for his approach to comparable conflict issues on the ECML when he was in charge in the 1960s. He said the answer to such things is not to come up with expensive measures to benefit the consequently-delayed service, but to ensure that the initial late runner actually ran to time in the first place.

 

[southern442]

Bring back the first stop Chippenham like we used to have....

They should have peak services that are non stop from London to Exeter or Bristol, that then continue to places like Cardiff and Plymouth.

 

[jimm]

Cameron does - he called two public meetings in Charlbury to haul FGW over the coals for the (then) abysmal punctuality on the Cotswold Line. Shortly afterwards, the redoubling was announced.

(But no, I don't think he's had anything to do with the First Class conversions.)

Redoubling was a process driven from within Network Rail from late 2006 to tackle punctuality problems caused by far more trains using the line than ever envisaged when it was singled in 1971.

The public meetings Mr Cameron called were in early 2008 and the redoubling plan was formally announced the morning of the day that the second one took place - not a coincidence...

Traditionally, the Cotswold Line had a high level of first class custom but it is not what it used to be, even in the peaks, and far bigger issues for passengers are punctuality (still) and plugging gaps to get an hourly off-peak service.

And as an aside, I received a marketing email from FGW on Wednesday extolling the virtues of first advances offering up to 60 per cent off regular first class fares. Looks like a great way to devalue the product to me, even if it works a treat filling up seats on West Country services.

There is no such thing as a first advance from Worcester - or anywhere on the Cotswold Line - most likely precisely because of a fear of devaluing the product for those paying full whack.

 

[Tetchytyke]

None whatsoever I'd expect.

Probably just typical conspiracy theory - as if every MP gave a dam about their local rail issues...

You'll probably also think it a coincidence that HS2 won't be going through George Osborne's constituency in Cheshire.

Also consider number of MPs who come out slagging off the local buses and trains in the run up to an election. The right honourable member for Hartlepool's already been doing it for months.

The public meetings Mr Cameron called were in early 2008 and the redoubling plan was formally announced the morning of the day that the second one took place - not a coincidence...

My point exactly.

 

[AndrewP]

If any MP can get improvements for transport in their constituency good on them.

If they are a senior MP and can influence more - then they should.

We have had several miss this opportunity in the past - including a previous incumbent in Hartlepool

 

[Aictos]

Why didn't FGW just turn the buffet coach around and convert that to Standard Class which is what GNER did with the Mallard refurbishments of the Mk4s rather then convert one of the existing First Class carriages to Standard Class?

 

[sprinterguy]

Why didn't FGW just turn the buffet coach around and convert that to Standard Class which is what GNER did with the Mallard refurbishments of the Mk4s rather then convert one of the existing First Class carriages to Standard Class?

Presumably FGW feel that there is more benefit to be gained by providing an entire additional carriage of standard class, rather than half a one.

Technically, the Mallard refurbishment of the mark 4s actually increased first class capacity despite the buffet car being "turned round" and refitted as standard, by adding an extra first class coach beyond the original two FOs (The handful of "Pullman" sets that operated with three FOs in Intercity and early GNER days excluded).

It is truly indicative of the high levels of growth that the railways are currently experiencing when you consider that the Great Western HSTs originally operated in 2+7 formation with two first class vehicles and, at the very beginning, two catering vehicles, as well as a much lower density of seating in standard class!

 

[LexyBoy]

Why didn't FGW just turn the buffet coach around and convert that to Standard Class which is what GNER did with the Mallard refurbishments of the Mk4s rather then convert one of the existing First Class carriages to Standard Class?

Many FGW HSTs have a mini-buffet (80% standard class, 20% buffet) rather than the original buffet, so I guess converting one whole FC coach on all sets is operationally simpler. Also, converting a TRFB would not give much more SC capacity whilst being as much work as converting a TFO.

They should have peak services that are non stop from London to Exeter or Bristol, that then continue to places like Cardiff and Plymouth.

Rather than actually serving demand? Limited stop services might make sense if there were the capacity to run additional stopping trains, but there isn't. More non-stop trains would just mean reduced frequency for everyone.

 

[Aictos]

Rather than actually serving demand? Limited stop services might make sense if there were the capacity to run additional stopping trains, but there isn't. More non-stop trains would just mean reduced frequency for everyone.

Could the Penzance/Plymouth services be restricted to Pick up only in the Plymouth direction at Reading and Set down only in the Paddington direction at Reading if it's not already been done?

This might upset the Reading commuters but they could still use the Turbos and other services operated by HSTs, besides if they didn't like the changes then they could always use SWT to Waterloo