FGW to convert First Class carriages

[jimm]

Quite surprised at this - seem to be pandering to Reading commuters at the expense of long distance travellers, think Leisure travellers used to 1st class due to reduced capacity will get a shock if forced to use standard given the minimal leg room etc. The business traveller will also be less than pleased if they are to be crammed in !! Will the longer term effect 1st class catering trolley as well if a reduction in 1st class travel occurs ?

The leg room in standard in FGW HSTs is absolutely fine unlesss you're a giant, though not as generous as a 180 - if you want minimal, try a Monarch Airlines Airbus.

One first class coach isn't a lot. Perhaps the number of people travelling on full first class tickets has dropped, and FGW feel that they can make more from a more cramped standard class coach than by offering very cheap Advance fares in first class.

It says quite clearly in the FGW statement in the initial post that there will be one-and-a-half first class coaches in every HST. It's not about making money, it's about providing more seats to try to ease the pressure in the Thames Valley - and while there are undoubtedly issues with passengers not moving down trains to find seats, there are plenty of Thames Valley peak services which are so crowded that it doesn't make a blind bit of difference which coach you're in - they're all packed.

The new trains have only limited first class accomadation, and a cynic might suggest that old HSTs need to be downgraded before the new trains come in.

By new trains, I take it you mean IEP. Going by the DfT draft layouts, the five-car sets will have 45 first class seats, in essence the same as a 180. The nine-cars have one-and-a-half coaches, plus a bit of a driving car, giving 101 seats in first, so mcuh the same as a pair of Mk3s. Lose the bit of a coach, or the half-coach, and you have 70-odd to 80-odd seats, much the same as one-and-a-half Mk3s, so yes, a cynic might suggest it's a conspiracy, or he might look at the level of first class travel these days and see the change as a logical outcome of how things have gone since 2008 - and on the FGW route I use, that is a lower level of first class custom, with clear over-provision of first class accommodation, even on the busiest trains.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well heres your sinic - the traveling publick not used to the voyager experience have to be made aware of what fun it is befor the voyager MK2, AKA IEP arives!↲

 

[jimm]

Well heres your sinic - the traveling publick not used to the voyager experience have to be made aware of what fun it is befor the voyager MK2, AKA IEP arives!↲

Which has nothing to do with the current level of first class custom on most FGW HST services, set against the number of seats provided.

And since we have yet to see an IEP, no-one actually knows what the interiors will look like - though we do know they won't have a tilt body profile, which is just one of the factors affecting the Voyager.

 

[Blindtraveler]

that comment was more in terms of capacity and levels of cumfort. We all know how many lessons have not been learned so feel I have a valid point. Ok carry on.↲

 

[jimm]

that comment was more in terms of capacity and levels of cumfort. We all know how many lessons have not been learned so feel I have a valid point. Ok carry on.↲

I repeat, no-one has seen an IEP, so how would you know about comfort? There hasn't been a new design of intercity train in the UK since the start of last decade, when the Voyager, Pendolino and 180 emerged, so no opportunity to show if lessons have been learned, or not. The draft IEP standard class coach designs show a vehicle with 88 seats, just half a dozen more than FGW fits into a shorter HST coach now.

Capacity? The more there is, the better. The number of passengers using FGW services has grown from 76 million at the start of the franchise in 2006 to 97 million in 2012-13. And they're not all travelling on West Country branch lines or, more pertinent to this thread - which I am not trying to turn into one about IEP - on first class tickets.

 

[TEW]

Some further good news resulting from this change. The newly converted Standard Class carriages will reportedly have 8 tables.

 

[455driver]

that comment was more in terms of capacity and levels of cumfort. We all know how many lessons have not been learned so feel I have a valid point. Ok carry on.↲

<Cynical mode>
Are you trying to say that the Government (through the DaFT) will continue to make the same mistakes over and over?
Surely not!

I am with you BT and although I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised, I am not expecting much.

 

[fgwrich]

Some further good news resulting from this change. The newly converted Standard Class carriages will reportedly have 8 tables.

So almost back to the older days of FGW where coach E was labelled 'Family Carriage' then with it's decent number of tables.

 

[jopsuk]

Assuming further carriages for conversion were available, what would be the barriers to lengthening Great Western sets to 9 carriage (like East Coast sets)? Terminal platforms? Power in Devon over the banks (so not an issue for High Capacity sets)?

 

[bnm]

Neither terminal platforms or the Devon Banks are an impediment to 2+9 HSTs on the Western.

FGW operate 2+9 sets in the summer to Newquay and regularly at other times to move stock around.

 

[CC 72100]

Neither terminal platforms or the Devon Banks are an impediment to 2+9 HSTs on the Western.

FGW operate 2+9 sets in the summer to Newquay and regularly at other times to move stock around.

While true (I had forgotten about those trains with a coach 'X'), I can't help feeling that a 2+9 would start adding minutes to journey times between Plymouth and Penzance. Acceleration would (albeit not drastically) reduced, would it not?

 

[BestWestern]

Some further good news resulting from this change. The newly converted Standard Class carriages will reportedly have 8 tables.

Hmm, how strange. Surely the objective here is maximum seating provision?!

 

[jimm]

Assuming further carriages for conversion were available, what would be the barriers to lengthening Great Western sets to 9 carriage (like East Coast sets)? Terminal platforms? Power in Devon over the banks (so not an issue for High Capacity sets)?

I think you'll find a more basic issue is the layout of depots and length of stabling sidings. The odd 2+9 for Newquay can be accommodated but if you have lots of them, then it could pose a problem.

Hmm, how strange. Surely the objective here is maximum seating provision?!

I seem to recall someone saying that these coaches were to act as a floating pool to help through the overhaul period, so they could appear in both high and low-density sets over that time, so that may be a factor. My train home the other night had a first open as coach B, so looks like some sort of pool of spare standards is urgently needed.

And it may be a coincidence but the IEP standard class coaches shown on the DfT plans have eight tables.

 

[TEW]

The newly converted buffets are meant to be being used to help during the availability period. The first one has been delivered to Laira but I don't think it's been in use yet, and not sure on the layout of those.

 

[Yew]

Is it a full coach being lost, or the buffet coach turned around, to give an extra half carriage of standard?

 

[455driver]

Is it a full coach being lost, or the buffet coach turned around, to give an extra half carriage of standard?

Full coach which is going to cause problems on quite a few peak trains.

 

[TEW]

It's only the loss of half a carriage on the sets with Micro Buffets though. They only have 2 First Class carriages at the moment, so a drop to 1.5 is not a massive reduction in capacity.

 

[455driver]

So all sets will have one and a half 1st class coaches so about 60-65 1st class seats, that isnt going to be enough.

 

[Bishopstone]

So all sets will have one and a half 1st class coaches so about 60-65 1st class seats, that isnt going to be enough.

As in every First Class seat will be occupied with some standing; or as in people will be required to share bays of 2/4 with strangers for the first time?

In any case, First Class fares aren't regulated, so can be adjusted around the available capacity.

 

[Goatboy]

A real shame this went ahead - the needs of the short distance Reading commuters appear to have trumped the needs of those customers which the HST services were actually designed to cater for - long distance passengers.

I took an HST in Standard out of Paddington in the evening peak a few months ago. It was completely rammed... until Reading, where there was then ample room for everyone.

 

[TEW]

So all sets will have one and a half 1st class coaches so about 60-65 1st class seats, that isnt going to be enough.

I think it will be on the vast majority of services. That's exactly what FGW seem to think too, as they said that in their press release. And I'm guessing they have access to the figures to be able to accurately make that statement. The services that I could see it being a problem on are the Pullman departures from Paddington in the evening. I travel pretty regularly on FGW and the only time I can remember having to share a table in First Class was at a weekend when FGW also had to separate offers on allowing heavily discounted First Class travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A real shame this went ahead - the needs of the short distance Reading commuters appear to have trumped the needs of those customers which the HST services were actually designed to cater for - long distance passengers.

I took an HST in Standard out of Paddington in the evening peak a few months ago. It was completely rammed... until Reading, where there was then ample room for everyone.

So the only long distance passengers are First Class passengers then? I don't see how increasing the standard class capacity is bad for long distance passengers, the majority of which will be travelling in Standard Class. Although this is being spun as a way of increasing capacity for the peaks in London they aren't the only busy services in Standard Class. Lots of services across the network get very busy on Sundays because of the reduced service, and services to Cornwall get very busy in the Summer. And that's not just people standing for 30 minutes either. Up to an extra 80 Standard Class seats will be welcomed by the majority of FGW passengers who travel in Standard Class.

 

[455driver]

As in every First Class seat will be occupied with some standing;

Yes, some of the early trains from the West Country have quite a few 1st class season ticket holders.

In any case, First Class fares aren't regulated, so can be adjusted around the available capacity.

I suppose a bit of price massaging will fix the problem.

 

[jimm]

So all sets will have one and a half 1st class coaches so about 60-65 1st class seats, that isnt going to be enough.

Since when has 48 and half of 48 equalled 60-65? And like I keep saying, 72 is more than enough on an awful lot of FGW services, even in the peaks, never mind off-peak, when it's a case of spot the passenger much of the time.

And how exactly would you know it isn't going to be enough if you are presumably driving trains in and out of Waterloo most of the time?

A real shame this went ahead - the needs of the short distance Reading commuters appear to have trumped the needs of those customers which the HST services were actually designed to cater for - long distance passengers.

I took an HST in Standard out of Paddington in the evening peak a few months ago. It was completely rammed... until Reading, where there was then ample room for everyone.

So what else do you suggest FGW should do to cope with demand in the Thames Valley then? And I can assure you there are lots of very busy HSTs running to places beyond Reading as well, with lots of the people getting off there replaced by people getting on, who commute in and out of Reading, never mind those travelling for other reasons.

 

[GodAtum]

From my experiences Ive always had trouble getting a seat in 1st on a Sunday afternoon from Paddington.
On a weekday morning 1st class is empty from Paddington.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am a long distance traveler when i ever i head down south and into the south west. But i do not travel First Class, so do i not count as a long distance traveler then?

 

[Bishopstone]

From my experiences Ive always had trouble getting a seat in 1st on a Sunday afternoon from Paddington.

Much of the weekend custom will be Weekend First, which could be made more expensive or abolished altogether in favour of Advances, where demand can be more closely aligned to capacity.

Weekend First is only there for the TOC to make a bit more money at the margin, from otherwise empty seats, and in some cases to relieve pressure on Standard capacity. I don't think the extent of First Class seating should be determined around the demand for cheap upgrades; bargain-basement Advances or First Class commuters from Reading who are, surely, always guaranteed a FC seat on a Turbo or SWT starting there?

 

[jon0844]

Weekend first could presumably remain, as people can only upgrade on the train and so it's easy to manage demand naturally.

But there's always the possibility of someone with a FC ticket boarding later when it's now full.

 

[Sleepy]

I still wonder how many long distance 1st class customers will desert the train if either overcrowding or vastly reduced Advance Quotas become the norm ??? Of course the best solution would have been additional coach but obviously it is more pc to get rid of some 1st class and FGW will not want to p@ss off dft with direct award in the bag - allegedly !!

 

[455driver]

And how exactly would you know it isn't going to be enough if you are presumably driving trains in and out of Waterloo most of the time?

Because I travel down to the West Country quite a lot and normally go via Reading and use FGW, not that it is any of your concern! :roll:

Oh if anyone is interested 42517 was seen on the A38 near Buckfastleigh heading North on a low loader about 12 oclock.

This time I travelled down on SWT and got picked up at Exeter if that is okay with everyone! :roll:

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data"....

I took an HST in Standard out of Paddington in the evening peak a few months ago. It was completely rammed... until Reading, where there was then ample room for everyone.

...but that isn't even a plural. "Once, a few months ago." :roll: