MCR247
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They might be if they end up screaming because they are late the concert because of the trams
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Hi guys.
I'm not from the UK but I'm something of a transport enthusiast. I've been seeing articles about establishing modern trams/light rail in Edinburgh for a decade, but usually in the background. I've managed to find and take a look at the original proposals from over a decade ago and get an idea of what unfolded since.
I have to say (at the very least); I've not formed a very favourable impression.
Can someone please confirm the following;
1) The project has run horrendously over the budget forecasts and been scaled back from three lines to a truncation of one line (only serving the airport).
2) Someone in the Edinburgh local government actually bought 27 nice new trams & a depot from CAF (I presume to ensure the project would not be cancelled) when only 7 will actually be required. And that the trams will not be easy to sell to other cities due to a generous size/loading gauge.
3) The actual laying of the tracks in the old town has been a disaster with enormous delays and cost overruns due to subcontractors making mistakes (for whatever reason). Oh, and also due to tracks with the wrong profile actually being purchased and laid.
Ive only visited Edinburgh about a decade ago (not lived there), but I got the strong impression that the bus system was excellent. Especially the bus service from the airport. Was there any actual reason to upgrade to trams for that route?
The establishing of modern trams in the UK seems to be something of a mixed-bag in terms of success. Croydon, Sheffield and Nottingham seem to have been highly successful, and could easily justify funding for upgrades and extensions. Manchester seems overall successful but not to the same degree as the aforementioned, partly due to issues with the original Ansaldo rolling stock. Birmingham's midland metro looks like something of a failure.
But this Edinburgh attempt really looks like a complete debacle, and with little if anything positive resulting. The level of incompetence from whoever's responsible seems frankly criminal.
Is this funded from the Edinburgh local body government or has it had some level of state funding? Because if it has had the latter; Leeds could be justified in being rather furious in not getting the tramway they did their homework on.
Other opinions are available.You're being overly generous.
There is a culture in the UK (and in much of the rest of the world) which presumes that the local authority is incompetent. It is a culture which has been honed and developed to the very pinnacle of excellence in Edinburgh, (though several other cities follow closely behind - but perhaps none of those are in the UK with an incipient tram service).
The people who are best able to make the informed judgement that their local authority is incompetent in these cities or boroughs are usually the residents. These would be the residents who had elected the Council members who oversee the Council Officers, which (using the model of responsibility used in the private sector) suggests that by following the chain of decision making, the persons who are responsible for the incompetence of the local authority (where that is the predominat view), is the majority of the voting electorate.
In short - where residents (other than Council staff or Members) blame 'the Council', they would be better advised to consider blaming themselves.
Will weekly Lothian bus passes be valid on the trams?
Other opinions are available.
There is a culture in the UK (and in much of the rest of the world) which presumes that the local authority is incompetent. It is a culture which has been honed and developed to the very pinnacle of excellence in Edinburgh, (though several other cities follow closely behind - but perhaps none of those are in the UK with an incipient tram service).
The people who are best able to make the informed judgement that their local authority is incompetent in these cities or boroughs are usually the residents. These would be the residents who had elected the Council members who oversee the Council Officers, which (using the model of responsibility used in the private sector) suggests that by following the chain of decision making, the persons who are responsible for the incompetence of the local authority (where that is the predominat view), is the majority of the voting electorate.
In short - where residents (other than Council staff or Members) blame 'the Council', they would be better advised to consider blaming themselves.
St James tram deal to edge route closer to Leith
A MAJOR obstacle in the delivery of the mothballed £80 million tram line down Leith Walk looks set to be overcome, the Evening News can reveal.
It is understood key negotiations are taking place between city council officials and developers of the new £850m St James Quarter district about extending the tram from York Place and the building of a new stop at Picardy Place.
Initial talks have also centred on the developer part-funding the laying of track down Leith Walk.
The extension project would see a programme of costly underground utility diversions and enabling works taking place outside St Mary’s Cathedral.
This represents a sizeable chunk of the proposed expense of running the trams to Newhaven.
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The question they were asked was:The people of Edinburgh were asked, in a referendum, if they wanted the trams. They said no.
The leaflet enclosed with this ballot paper gives information on the Council's transport proposals for Edinburgh. The Council's preferred strategy includes congestion charging and increased transport investment funded by it. Do you support the Council's preferred strategy?"
The Depot was under construction by the time the final collapse of the original scheme came, large areas of suitable land not earmarked for other development were not easily available in the North of the City or in Leith at the time, so the depot was built where it was cheapest to do so.
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Sorry to be a bit "cloak and daggerish" but Stagecoach already have people working within Lothian Buses.
The attitude of the Evening News has underwent serious change since there was change of personnel at the top, yes they go with the odd "parking on the tramlines" story but when push comes to shove their coverage is now firmly pro-council/tram as you will see once it does finally open.
The establishing of modern trams in the UK seems to be something of a mixed-bag in terms of success. Croydon, Sheffield and Nottingham seem to have been highly successful, and could easily justify funding for upgrades and extensions. Manchester seems overall successful but not to the same degree as the aforementioned, partly due to issues with the original Ansaldo rolling stock. Birmingham's midland metro looks like something of a failure.
The Ocean Terminal shopping centre will likely see itself disadvantaged if the trams aren't extended so I imagine they would be very interested in helping the tram get there as well.
Like most shopping centres of its kind, a large part of its customers come by car. There are also reasonable bus services from the adjacent areas of the city. Why would a tram from the city centre make such a big difference to their business?
I don't see not being provided with public transport being beneficial to a shopping centre, for one.
Whilst I'm sure trams may help, Ocean Terminal isn't short of public transport with 5 day bus routes and 1 night bus route.
Edinburgh has a very good bus service. Innit?
I wasn't suggesting that Ocean Terminal doesn't have adequate public transport; I was saying that providing it with more is never going to do harm and not providing it with more is not going to do any good.
But it still has alot of work still to be resolved, including the missing southern orbital route, missing link routes not via the Princess street along with better service to Fort kinnard and Edinburgh park.
It's not perfect and I particularly miss the circular services 32/52. Apart from city centre to Edinburgh Park journeys, the tram line is not going to help with the shortcomings you mention.
Most of the "Circulars" if not all have been withdrawn and I wonder whether this has had the effect of artificially inflating carryings, as many journeys that previously could have been completed with one trip now require two trips, perhaps putting the much hyped "success" of Lothian Buses in a new light?
It's not perfect and I particularly miss the circular services 32/52. Apart from city centre to Edinburgh Park journeys, the tram line is not going to help with the shortcomings you mention.
I agree.
It's one of the easiest places to easily get to from most places within the city. Two buses at most will get most people there easily - and back again, easily.
Edinburgh has a very good bus service. Innit?
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The two main circles, 1/6 and 32/52, finished years ago.
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The first time the tracks along Princes Street were laid, they sank into the ground within months, and had to be dug up and redone.3) The actual laying of the tracks in the old town has been a disaster with enormous delays and cost overruns due to subcontractors making mistakes (for whatever reason). Oh, and also due to tracks with the wrong profile actually being purchased and laid.
Ive only visited Edinburgh about a decade ago (not lived there), but I got the strong impression that the bus system was excellent. Especially the bus service from the airport. Was there any actual reason to upgrade to trams for that route?
The main problem Slugger is that the diversion of utilities developed into a complete disaster. The Council and it's agencies desperately tried to blame the contractors however the evidence is that the said Council and it's agencies were largely to blame.
Ongoing losses from this truncated section will eventually force the Council to privatise or part privatise Lothian Buses
No.The question I can't help asking is; Did Edinburgh really need a tramway full stop? (let alone the one line they actually built)
The bus service is pretty damn good. But there will always be areas for improvement, that's a given.Were the already existing public transport systems not up to scratch? And if they weren't; was a new tramway the best option?
What the Trams have managed to do is make it almost impossible to keep a bus on time through the city centre when they're out, and every time one passes through, it causes chaos and often gridlocks the East End, as well as causing large queues of traffic around the West End.You'll find a large body of opinion that says there was no need for the tram. The Lothian Buses system is superb, and on the bits where it all falls down (the congested city centre) the trams will be street-running so it won't help there.
We have them, but a lot of them in the city centre have loading and parking bays in them, which make them useless outwith the peaks, and quite a few of them are fairly rubbish in the peaks too, as people park in them anyway.Seems like completely the wrong solution was selected.
Couldn't have they just organised lanes only for buses and taxis?
Definitely not - I don't do early starts.Am going out for the 05:00 xGyle on the 31st, staying with the set to the airport from the City Centre and return. Any other forum members joining me?
If you can get a bus into town, you can get to Ocean Terminal on two buses, and a fairly large chunk of the city can do it on one.It's one of the easiest places to easily get to from most places within the city. Two buses at most will get most people there easily - and back again, easily.
Though given the choice from the City Centre, would you rather jump on a 22 that will take you pretty much to the door, or take a Tram that'll get you nearby, with a few minutes walk?I wasn't suggesting that Ocean Terminal doesn't have adequate public transport; I was saying that providing it with more is never going to do harm and not providing it with more is not going to do any good.
I'll believe it when I see it.I've said time and again that as soon as the effect of the tram in passenger service is felt the demand will be for extensions here there and everywhere, just like Manchester.
You're very skeptical about these trams.