ATW 'Gerald'

[merlodlliw]

I imagine that the 06:30 from Aberystwyth will indeed be quite popular. It's filling in a gap that was badly needed.



The issue is not really one of paths - it's one of rolling stock. There's only so much you can do with what you've got! The set for the Wrexham service is going to Aberystwyth - that much we know.

By re-routing the 158 via Wrexham you then have the problem of no stock to operate the all stations 07:34 Crewe-Shrewsbury which the 05:14 from Holyhead operates by operating Holyhead-Crewe-Shrewsbury-Birmingham.

They're trying to please everyone, but I don't think I've ever come across a set of timetable changes anywhere that manages to do that.

I appreciate there is a problem with rolling stock, but the 158 to Birmingham from Holyhead runs via Wrexham at 0747 on public holidays and every Saturday when Gerald is tucked up in bed. ATW appear to cover the Crewe/Shrewsbury run on these days.

I also know timetable changes wont suit everyone, but this is the axing of services centered on North East Wales and no where else in Dec 2014 and May 2015, North East Wales is after all the third largest conurbation in Wales and growing at an enormous rate. With the £44M upgrade to the track, it is unbelievable the first consideration is to axe services,not to improve them, on the very day the upgrade is included in the May timetable.

 

[berneyarms]

I appreciate there is a problem with rolling stock, but the 158 to Birmingham from Holyhead runs via Wrexham at 0747 on public holidays and every Saturday when Gerald is tucked up in bed. ATW appear to cover the Crewe/Shrewsbury run on these days.

I also know timetable changes wont suit everyone, but this is the axing of services centered on North East Wales and no where else in Dec 2014 and May 2015, North East Wales is after all the third largest conurbation in Wales and growing at an enormous rate. With the £44M upgrade to the track, it is unbelievable the first consideration is to axe services,not to improve them, on the very day the upgrade is included in the May timetable.

On Bank Holidays and Saturdays the 07:47 from Wrexham doesn't run either so you have a spare set. That's how they operate the two trains.

I fully appreciate your frustration - but what do they do?

Cancel the extra services to/from Aberystwyth?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I fully appreciate your frustration - but what do they do?

Cancel the extra services to/from Aberystwyth?

If they hadn't sold their mark2s, they could have put those into service. That would have helped.

Talking of mark2s and North East Wales service improvements, could a through service Wrexham - Liverpool be introduced if some of the suped-up class 73 electro-diesels were allocated?

 

[merlodlliw]

On Bank Holidays and Saturdays the 07:47 from Wrexham doesn't run either so you have a spare set. That's how they operate the two trains.

I fully appreciate your frustration - but what do they do?

Cancel the extra services to/from Aberystwyth?

I agree the 0747 from Wrexham does not run Saturdays & Public Holidays,but as from May 2015 the set Mon to Sat will transfer to the Cambrian,so there wont be a spare set.
So I presume the 0522 Holyhead on Saturdays will continue to run via Wrexham,
with perhaps a rejig on the Crewe/Shrewsbury line, I realise its difficult when WG direct ATW to run extras on the Cambrian,perhaps Gerald could run on Saturdays to Shrewsbury,I have yet to hear Gerald running Holyhead/Crewe on Summer Saturdays this year.

 

[berneyarms]

I agree the 0747 from Wrexham does not run Saturdays & Public Holidays,but as from May 2015 the set Mon to Sat will transfer to the Cambrian,so there wont be a spare set.
So I presume the 0522 Holyhead on Saturdays will continue to run via Wrexham,
with perhaps a rejig on the Crewe/Shrewsbury line, I realise its difficult when WG direct ATW to run extras on the Cambrian,perhaps Gerald could run on Saturdays to Shrewsbury,I have yet to hear Gerald running Holyhead/Crewe on Summer Saturdays this year.

Maybe one of the Cambrian extras won't operate on Saturdays, I don't know.

Say 0630 ex-Aberystwyth and the first train from Birmingham didn't operate then you'd have a spare set.

There are ways and means of rejigging things at the weekend.

But unless they have a magic wand and can find more rolling stock, I don't hold out much hope for your 07:47 I'm afraid.

 

[Welshman]

If they hadn't sold their mark2s, they could have put those into service. That would have helped.

Talking of mark2s and North East Wales service improvements, could a through service Wrexham - Liverpool be introduced if some of the suped-up class 73 electro-diesels were allocated?

That's an innovative thought!

I suppose you mean via Bidston and the Merseyrail network and not via a re-opened Halton curve [ as that would obviously mean using diesel-power throughout].

Unfortunately, I doubt very much whether ATW and Merseyrail would contemplate such "outside the box" thinking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

perhaps Gerald could run on Saturdays to Shrewsbury,I have yet to hear Gerald running Holyhead/Crewe on Summer Saturdays this year.

If funding for "Gerald" is discontinued, I wonder what would happen to its being used as a duplicate from Cardiff on the Saturdays there's a major sporting event?

It doesn't seem like ATW will have any stock to strengthen the existing services, otherwise.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That's an innovative thought!

I suppose you mean via Bidston and the Merseyrail network and not via a re-opened Halton curve [ as that would obviously mean using diesel-power throughout].

Either via Bidston or via reversal at Chester. Either way, using electrified Merseyrail lines into Liverpool and not the Halton curve.

 

[PHILIPE]

All we can talk about at the moment are the December 2014 and May 2015 Timetables. As it has only just been agreed, the Halton Curve will be light years away yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
67012 (Chiltern) currently working Gerald.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Talking of mark2s and North East Wales service improvements, could a through service Wrexham - Liverpool be introduced if some of the suped-up class 73 electro-diesels were allocated?

Don't laugh, but there's an article in August Modern Railways (p62) about a possible conversion project for the LU D78 District Line stock, recently retired.
It includes fitting an above-floor diesel engine and using them to replace Pacers, but apparently a bi-mode version is possible and might be viable on Wrexham-Bidston-Liverpool.
All speculation of course, but apparently it has PTE interest.
A diesel demonstrator should be on test next year.

 

[merlodlliw]

That's an innovative thought!



If funding for "Gerald" is discontinued, I wonder what would happen to its being used as a duplicate from Cardiff on the Saturdays there's a major sporting event?

It doesn't seem like ATW will have any stock to strengthen the existing services, otherwise.

Gerald when run on special sporting occasions, runs unadvertised to Cardiff,usually with around six on board according to reports.
So why not use the spare set in Canton on these occasions for the busy run to up North.,it may have to run back empty stock,but no worse than Gerald.
That way North Wales would have an extra Saturday spare.

 

[Welshman]

Either via Bidston or via reversal at Chester. Either way, using electrified Merseyrail lines into Liverpool and not the Halton curve.

I would have thought that of the two routes, via Bidston would have a greater chance of becoming a reality, as Chester already has a 30minute service to Liverpool, whereas stations on the Boderlands line have only an hourly service to Bidston.

Plus the fact that to go via Chester would mean a total re-jigging of the Chester/Ellesmere Port- Liverpool timetable, as, presumably you wouldn't want these through trains from Wrexham to be stopping at places like Bache, Eastham Rake, Spital, etc. And, unfortunately, the days of four tracks from Chester to Rock Ferry are long past!

And, as a bonus - if connections too/from the N Wales Coast stations at Shotton could be improved, you could have a winner!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't laugh, but there's an article in August Modern Railways (p62) about a possible conversion project for the LU D78 District Line stock, recently retired.
It includes fitting an above-floor diesel engine and using them to replace Pacers, but apparently a bi-mode version is possible and might be viable on Wrexham-Bidston-Liverpool.
All speculation of course, but apparently it has PTE interest.
A diesel demonstrator should be on test next year.

I didn't laugh - I'm fascinated by the idea, and promise I had not read the MR article when I supported Rhydgaled's suggestion above.

 

[merlodlliw]

I would have thought that of the two routes, via Bidston would have a greater chance of becoming a reality, as Chester already has a 30minute service to Liverpool, whereas stations on the Boderlands line have only an hourly service to Bidston.

Chester has a 15 minute service to Liverpool & is the busiest line of the four tocs at the Station.Current there is a lot of interest in the Bidston Line,however it would be useless to Airbus staff in my opinion. But Wrexham/Bidston is twin track 99.5% of the way, so plenty of capacity & paths

 

[SprinterMan]

Maybe they could start calling the southbound WAG at Ruabon, Chirk & Gobowen if the 0747 is to be withdrawn as it connects with a BHM train at shrewsbury.

Adam

 

[berneyarms]

Maybe they could start calling the southbound WAG at Ruabon, Chirk & Gobowen if the 0747 is to be withdrawn as it connects with a BHM train at shrewsbury.

Adam

If you go back and read post 116 you will see that is precisely what is being suggested will happen.

 

[SprinterMan]

If you go back and read post 116 you will see that is precisely what is being suggested will happen.

Sorry, have not had internet in a about a week so have missed some stuff.

 

[merlodlliw]

Sorry, have not had internet in a about a week so have missed some stuff.

Have a look at the timetables again,the connection you mention is the same train from Shrewsbury as now,with Holyhead & Wrexham units joining.
To bring you up to speed,if our service is axed it will mean passengers for Birmingham waiting almost half an hour on Shrewsbury station,not the ideal situation for those catching a flight with luggage from International or those going to work.

 

[berneyarms]

Have a look at the timetables again,the connection you mention is the same train from Shrewsbury as now,with Holyhead & Wrexham units joining.
To bring you up to speed,if our service is axed it will mean passengers for Birmingham waiting almost half an hour on Shrewsbury station,not the ideal situation for those catching a flight with luggage from International or those going to work.

I think you're being a tad economic here. People won't be waiting half an hour at Shrewsbury. The WAG is 15 minutes ahead of the 07:47, and with the extra stops the train will take longer to get to Shrewsbury than it does at the moment, probably getting there at about 08:13 or so (about 6 minutes later than currently).

The train from Crewe will arrive at about 08:28, and the train from Aberystwyth at about 08:26 - that's about a 15 minute wait, not half an hour.

I'm not disagreeing with you - it is far from ideal, but I can't really see another way around it.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think you're being a tad economic here. People won't be waiting half an hour at Shrewsbury. The WAG is 15 minutes ahead of the 07:47, and with the extra stops the train will take longer to get to Shrewsbury than it does at the moment, probably getting there at about 08:13 or so (about 6 minutes later than currently).

The train from Crewe will arrive at about 08:28, and the train from Aberystwyth at about 08:26 - that's about a 15 minute wait, not half an hour.

I'm not disagreeing with you - it is far from ideal, but I can't really see another way around it.

IM told with the new timetable May 2015, Gerald would make up the time between Gobowen & Salop,due to the new track laid Bersham to Salop.
Far from good, but we will press for Direct Birmingham to be rerouted via Wrexham,as it used to run Mon to Friday,

 

[PHILIPE]

IM told with the new timetable May 2015, Gerald would make up the time between Gobowen & Salop,due to the new track laid Bersham to Salop.
Far from good, but we will press for Direct Birmingham to be rerouted via Wrexham,as it used to run Mon to Friday,

The trouble with re-routing back again is that it serves local stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury replacing the local of which the 158 was transferred to the 07 47 Wrexham. The root cause of the problem is the additional 06 30 from Aberystwyth. I think we will just have to bite the bullet on this one.

 

[berneyarms]

IM told with the new timetable May 2015, Gerald would make up the time between Gobowen & Salop,due to the new track laid Bersham to Salop.
Far from good, but we will press for Direct Birmingham to be rerouted via Wrexham,as it used to run Mon to Friday,

The most you're going to save is 2-3 minutes. That still does not materially change the wait from 15 minutes - it's certainly not half an hour.

I've already explained why the Holyhead-Birmingham train cannot be re-routed - the effect would be to cancel the 0734 train between Crewe and Shrewsbury and given there are no other stopping trains anytime near that, that is not going to happen.

Cancelling that train would be far worse than people waiting 15 minutes or thereabouts being brutally honest about it.

I think you need to take a different tack than that. I cannot see the people who use that train being too happy with you if you go down that route.

There is a reality here of how much rolling stock ATW have and you just can't magic it out of thin air. As I said before, there are always people unhappy with any timetable change.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The trouble with re-routing back again is that it serves local stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury replacing the local of which the 158 was transferred to the 07 47 Wrexham. The root cause of the problem is the additional 06 30 from Aberystwyth. I think we will just have to bite the bullet on this one.

Why can't the 150/153 that works the Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers the rest of the day take up that working too? Is it busy doing something else?

 

[berneyarms]

Why can't the 150/153 that works the Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers the rest of the day take up that working too? Is it busy doing something else?

Yes it is. It's going in the opposite direction at the time.

A simple check of the timetable tells you that.

 

[SprinterMan]

Yes it is. It's going in the opposite direction at the time.

A simple check of the timetable tells you that.

You seem to be being a little sharp with people on here. Please don't be, there is no need for any hostility as this is a very friendly place.

Adam

 

[berneyarms]

Apologies - not intended to be.

 

[Squaddie]

You seem to be being a little sharp with people on here. Please don't be, there is no need for any hostility as this is a very friendly place.

I don't think berneyarms was being sharp - merely firm. Sometimes the half-truths, exaggerations and politically-inspired untruths that seem to be common on every thread concerned with Welsh railways need a firm response.

 

[cymro inside]

You seem to be being a little sharp with people on here. Please don't be, there is no need for any hostility as this is a very friendly place.

Adam

a very friendly place? i dont think so,from the racist bigoted anti Welsh rants that tdk in particular has been posting it is anything but friendly and the moderators have sat idly by whilst tirades of anti Welsh vitriol have been appearing daily on these pages,little wonder that some of us dont post anymore.

 

[berneyarms]

I don't think it's helpful to digress from the subject here.

No offence was intended - I guess I'm such a timetable junkie that I occasionally forget that not everyone else is. I'd automatically look at the timetables to answer that sort of question, that was my point.

I think best left at that please.

Back on topic, unfortunately I think that people are going to have to accept the compromise of using "Gerald" - there simply isn't the rolling stock to divert for this.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes it is. It's going in the opposite direction at the time.

I expected there to be a good reason, just making sure that point hadn't been overlooked.

The July 2014 Modern Railways says that ATW is having mk3s converted to TSOs to form two extra loco-hauled sets (presumably one is a spare set and the other is for the new north Wales - Manchester diagram). No mention of whether this includes additional DVTs or locos*. It also says

"The second loco-hauled set is likely to release a DMU for use elsewhere. However, ATW believes its existing fleet will be sufficient to cover the additional services specified by the Welsh Government from May 2015."

The question then is what will the DMU released by the LHCS be used for. You might be able to use it to maintain the Wrexham-Birmingham, but how does that option fair alongside other possible uses? Having an additional spare for resilliance for example, or retaining the coast portion to ensure capacity on the existing Cambrian service (rather than spreading the same number of seats over an hourly rather than 2-hourly service, as will surely be necessary if they aren't expecting to require extra units).

* With only two LHCS diagrams (Gerald and the new N.Wales-MAN services), I would expect the current 3x DVT to be enough, since they would not require all of them in service at once. Then again, I'm supprised they need a spare rake of coaches up north (since they have one for Gerald anyway), so maybe they will need a 4th DVT as well.

 

[berneyarms]

There is a minimum need of 2 extra trains to operate the new Cambrian line services.

One set from the 07:47 ex-Wrexham and the second displaced through cascading of stock from the use of the LHCS in North Wales.

That's where the stock is going.

I'll try and set out how the Cambrian would work post-changes later. Suffice to say it will be a mix of services with changes at Dovey Junction and others splitting/joining at Machynlleth.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There is a minimum need of 2 extra trains to operate the new Cambrian line services.

One set from the 07:47 ex-Wrexham and the second displaced through cascading of stock from the use of the LHCS in North Wales.

That's where the stock is going.

I'll try and set out how the Cambrian would work post-changes later. Suffice to say it will be a mix of services with changes at Dovey Junction and others splitting/joining at Machynlleth.

I think somebody said once on this forum that the two extra units would not be needed if all services were 2-car with a change required to get up the Cambrian coast (which, sadly, seems to be the plan*) during the period of hourly trains to Aberystwyth. The Modern Railways peice seems to support this by saying no extra stock is needed for the May 2015 extras. I thought the quoted requirement for two extra units for the Cambrian was if you gave Aberystwyth an hourly service and still kept the 4-car workings every two hours as far as Machynlleth with the split for Pwllheli.

* Very bad idea in my opinion, if you are running more frequent services you are going to attract more passengers, and doing that without increasing total seats per day is just going to lead to sardine tin conditions.