Whistler40145
Established Member
Sorry my post was strongly worded regarding the thug, but I've no remorse to anyone carrying out such a unforgivable act of violence, but that's my view.
Yes we can call Btp, but their resources are so stretched that it's unlikely they will be able to attend.
The guard was assaulted during the course of their duties. Any job where that happens things tend to 'grind to a halt'. :roll:
I was having my ticket inspected and the machine swung and hit me on the side of the head.
Where theres blame theres a claim!
In which case the local police would normally attend and hand it over to BTP later
I wasn't there and I assume that you weren't?
I'd rather hear the full story before passing judgement
My experience and what other guards at my depot have said to me is that the civilian police are not interested if it is happening on the railway at least where I operate .
I wasnt there either .
But I know for a fact nobody deserves to be assaulted at work regardless of how awkward they are being with the customer
Don't the normal police have to be 'granted' extra powers by the BTP to actually have any jurisdiction?
No, in the UK (apart from Scotland) a police officer is a police officer is a police officer. They all hold a royal warrant as a constable of the Queen and all can carry out the duties of a police officer both on and off duty in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (I think with NI). In fact only two days ago I had an off duty member of a terrestrial force assist with a passenger issue on the train. A lot of the time however it is far preferable to have the BTP deal with railway incidents because, obviously, they are specially trained in matters to do with the railway.
The BTP itself historically only dealt with railway matters but now has the same powers as a normal terrestrial police officer off the railway.
No, in the UK (apart from Scotland) a police officer is a police officer is a police officer. They all hold a royal warrant as a constable of the Queen and all can carry out the duties of a police officer both on and off duty in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (I think with NI). In fact only two days ago I had an off duty member of a terrestrial force assist with a passenger issue on the train. A lot of the time however it is far preferable to have the BTP deal with railway incidents because, obviously, they are specially trained in matters to do with the railway.
The BTP itself historically only dealt with railway matters but now has the same powers as a normal terrestrial police officer off the railway.
Don't the normal police have to be 'granted' extra powers by the BTP to actually have any jurisdiction?
Agreed, no one deserves to be attacked simply doing their job.
Not quite ,
The BTP can only act outside of their jurisdiction of the railway ,on request of a constable of any home office force , on request of the chief constable of any home office force as part of a mutual aid agreement , and if they come across an incident in the course of their duties where it is necessary to use their powers to preserve life or minimize personal injury . Or if they suspect someone is about to commit an offence or is committing an offence . And they must act because a constable of the home office forces would not arrive in sufficient time .
The protocol set out between Home office forces and BTP states that the BTP officers wont seek to use their powers outside of their normal jurisdiction unless completely necessary . So unless they are driving between railway sites and see a massive brawl they wont get involved in local policing .
Not as far as I am aware , a constable of any home office force has jurisdiction everywhere even outside of his force area . However the other way round the BTP dont quite have the same level of jurisdiction .
The last time I was assaulted the passenger got off at the next stop, and I took the train forward (on time) rather than keeping the doors locked until police attended, and taking time to recover my own composure, as I did not want to delay passengers (and I was aware the passenger could easily be tracked down).
The dozen or so passengers who witnessed the assault refused to give their details (an approach that was approved by a large number of members of this forum), once the train had left the station nobody from the company contacted me again for a week to see how I was, and BTP were unable to find the passengers details, despite them contacting Customer Services to complain about my lack of understanding of their "Behavioural Issues"!
The one thing I took from it is that the next time a similar incident happens, regardless of injuries sustained or not, I am going to hit the floor like a sack of spuds, screaming my head off, and that train will not move another foot. If this inconveniences anybody, I don't care, as experience shows they won't care whatever happens to me or my colleagues...
So if a BTP officer was driving in their police car from, for arguments sake, a railway station to another railway station and witnessed a traffic offence that warranted action but isn't deemed 'life or death' or imperative to public safety they would just ignore it? Or would they pull them over and let the civil/traffic police deal with it?
In which case the local police would normally attend and hand it over to BTP later
I wasn't there and I assume that you weren't?
I'd rather hear the full story before passing judgement
I've just done some looking up (wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_arrest
) and we are all entitled to arrest anyone to prevent a breach of the peace, in England and Wales, anyway. If pax came to the aid of guards.....
Flamingo in his anecdote told us that pax were not even willing to act as witness, let alone help him.
I agree with 455 Driver that staff need greater protection from the law so that pax know that they will be inside for a long time if they lay a finger on staff.
I personally would not intervene physically in this situation because it is not my job and if I get lamped or arrested and am unable to work for a period of time nobody is going to put food on my table for me , unlike the guard themselves who are fully insured by Virgin in case of events like this . Even as a guard myself I can understand why passengers would be reluctant to step in .I've just done some looking up (wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_arrest
) and we are all entitled to arrest anyone to prevent a breach of the peace, in England and Wales, anyway. If pax came to the aid of guards.....
Flamingo in his anecdote told us that pax were not even willing to act as witness, let alone help him.
I agree with 455 Driver that staff need greater protection from the law so that pax know that they will be inside for a long time if they lay a finger on staff.
I've just done some looking up (wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_arrest
) and we are all entitled to arrest anyone to prevent a breach of the peace, in England and Wales, anyway. If pax came to the aid of guards.....
I wholeheartedly agree with this point, having prior experience. I was about 16 at the time and at Conway Park where a lout was assaulting his (assumed) girlfriend. The member of staff present did not intervene and it took me punching someone twice my size (and getting clouted back!) before the assault stopped.On some occasions it seems that staff would rather let them get on with it than intervene for fear of assault or other action, which is a truly sad situation to be in.
they have a similar general duty to act in france . But then If I am driving by a lake and see some 15 year old kid that should have known better drowning in it . I am then expected to risk my life trying to save him - And If I claim I am not that strong a swimmer and I did not feel confident swimming in open water it is then made a big issue out of in court and I am expected to substantiate this claim .I wholeheartedly agree with this point, having prior experience. I was about 16 at the time and at Conway Park where a lout was assaulting his (assumed) girlfriend. The member of staff present did not intervene and it took me punching someone twice my size (and getting clouted back!) before the assault stopped.
I truly feel for the TM, whether he got pushed, punched or worse; unless he was physically provoking said pax it's completely unacceptable.
Many people are afraid to intervene purely because of the chance of losing their job if a proper report gets filed. Some countries (eg Canada) have a "duty to rescue" law which means you have to help someone in need unless it puts your life in danger. I think something similar in this country would not go amiss.
Staff will not intervene physically as 1. It is expressly forbidden by every TOC and 2. we are not trained to.
Even in cases where various police forces have commended staff who intervened and it prevented serious injury or death, the employers line has been "Very good, but don't do it again and nobody else copy them".
No, in the UK (apart from Scotland) a police officer is a police officer is a police officer. They all hold a royal warrant as a constable of the Queen and all can carry out the duties of a police officer both on and off duty in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (I think with NI). In fact only two days ago I had an off duty member of a terrestrial force assist with a passenger issue on the train. A lot of the time however it is far preferable to have the BTP deal with railway incidents because, obviously, they are specially trained in matters to do with the railway.
The BTP itself historically only dealt with railway matters but now has the same powers as a normal terrestrial police officer off the railway.
My understanding of the French law is that you would be expected to call the emergency services in those circumstances, not put your personal safety at risk.they have a similar general duty to act in france . But then If I am driving by a lake and see some 15 year old kid that should have known better drowning in it . I am then expected to risk my life trying to save him - And If I claim I am not that strong a swimmer and I did not feel confident swimming in open water it is then made a big issue out of in court and I am expected to substantiate this claim .
French Civil and Criminal law says you are required to render assistance to someone in peril if It can be done without endangering the life of the rescuer .My understanding of the French law is that you would be expected to call the emergency services in those circumstances, not put your personal safety at risk.
No offence intended to anyone in the grade, but if anyone is offended, can you in your heart of hearts tell me that you don't know of any other guards that do anything to unnecesarily rile people up? Because I've been in messrooms with guards and amongst all the foul mouthed banter, are often tales almost bragging about how they've bullied or otherwise overasserted their authority over passengers.
Some of these guards are known by their colleagues as really nice people. Yet when they have to deal with a difficult passenger, they're actually vile, vitriolic pieces of work. I've been travelling off duty and defused such situations simply because I would sooner get home on time than be delayed by the guard winding someone up and being assaulted.
When I read these stories, I wonder just what happened in the events leading up to the assault. I also wonder if there was anything at all that could have been done by the member of staff to avoid things escalating to that level and if so, why they weren't done.
I would love to take you out of your utopian ticket office and prove to you the job of the guard is not some easy thing where all our problems are self caused and you could do it better...
He doesnt have time for that because he is looking for the latest easement he can misuse to save himself 50p.