Virgin Guard Assaulted

[Whistler40145]

Sorry my post was strongly worded regarding the thug, but I've no remorse to anyone carrying out such a unforgivable act of violence, but that's my view.

 

[Antman]

Yes we can call Btp, but their resources are so stretched that it's unlikely they will be able to attend.

In which case the local police would normally attend and hand it over to BTP later

The guard was assaulted during the course of their duties. Any job where that happens things tend to 'grind to a halt'. :roll:

I wasn't there and I assume that you weren't?

I'd rather hear the full story before passing judgement

 

[dannypye9999]

I was having my ticket inspected and the machine swung and hit me on the side of the head.

Where theres blame theres a claim!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Where theres blame theres a claim!

It was a pure accident, the machine was on the guards shoulder and the train went over a rough section and both leapt forwards, the machine bashing me on the side of the head. It actually really did hurt and the guard was apologetic but I was fine with it and told him not to worry. He asked if he wanted to get someone to take a look at Sheffield but I politely declined, but said I would come to find him if I experienced any dizziness etc.

 

[muz379]

In which case the local police would normally attend and hand it over to BTP later



I wasn't there and I assume that you weren't?

I'd rather hear the full story before passing judgement

My experience and what other guards at my depot have said to me is that the civilian police are not interested if it is happening on the railway at least where I operate .

I wasnt there either .

But I know for a fact nobody deserves to be assaulted at work regardless of how awkward they are being with the customer

 

[D2022]

My experience and what other guards at my depot have said to me is that the civilian police are not interested if it is happening on the railway at least where I operate .

I wasnt there either .

But I know for a fact nobody deserves to be assaulted at work regardless of how awkward they are being with the customer

Don't the normal police have to be 'granted' extra powers by the BTP to actually have any jurisdiction?

Agreed, no one deserves to be attacked simply doing their job.

 

[TheEdge]

Don't the normal police have to be 'granted' extra powers by the BTP to actually have any jurisdiction?

No, in the UK (apart from Scotland) a police officer is a police officer is a police officer. They all hold a royal warrant as a constable of the Queen and all can carry out the duties of a police officer both on and off duty in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (I think with NI). In fact only two days ago I had an off duty member of a terrestrial force assist with a passenger issue on the train. A lot of the time however it is far preferable to have the BTP deal with railway incidents because, obviously, they are specially trained in matters to do with the railway.

The BTP itself historically only dealt with railway matters but now has the same powers as a normal terrestrial police officer off the railway.

 

[D2022]

No, in the UK (apart from Scotland) a police officer is a police officer is a police officer. They all hold a royal warrant as a constable of the Queen and all can carry out the duties of a police officer both on and off duty in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (I think with NI). In fact only two days ago I had an off duty member of a terrestrial force assist with a passenger issue on the train. A lot of the time however it is far preferable to have the BTP deal with railway incidents because, obviously, they are specially trained in matters to do with the railway.

The BTP itself historically only dealt with railway matters but now has the same powers as a normal terrestrial police officer off the railway.

Ah I see, I have never really looked into how policing the railways works to be honest. Cheers for the info

 

[muz379]

No, in the UK (apart from Scotland) a police officer is a police officer is a police officer. They all hold a royal warrant as a constable of the Queen and all can carry out the duties of a police officer both on and off duty in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (I think with NI). In fact only two days ago I had an off duty member of a terrestrial force assist with a passenger issue on the train. A lot of the time however it is far preferable to have the BTP deal with railway incidents because, obviously, they are specially trained in matters to do with the railway.

The BTP itself historically only dealt with railway matters but now has the same powers as a normal terrestrial police officer off the railway.

Not quite ,
The BTP can only act outside of their jurisdiction of the railway ,on request of a constable of any home office force , on request of the chief constable of any home office force as part of a mutual aid agreement , and if they come across an incident in the course of their duties where it is necessary to use their powers to preserve life or minimize personal injury . Or if they suspect someone is about to commit an offence or is committing an offence . And they must act because a constable of the home office forces would not arrive in sufficient time .

The protocol set out between Home office forces and BTP states that the BTP officers wont seek to use their powers outside of their normal jurisdiction unless completely necessary . So unless they are driving between railway sites and see a massive brawl they wont get involved in local policing .

Don't the normal police have to be 'granted' extra powers by the BTP to actually have any jurisdiction?

Agreed, no one deserves to be attacked simply doing their job.

Not as far as I am aware , a constable of any home office force has jurisdiction everywhere even outside of his force area . However the other way round the BTP dont quite have the same level of jurisdiction .

 

[D2022]

Not quite ,
The BTP can only act outside of their jurisdiction of the railway ,on request of a constable of any home office force , on request of the chief constable of any home office force as part of a mutual aid agreement , and if they come across an incident in the course of their duties where it is necessary to use their powers to preserve life or minimize personal injury . Or if they suspect someone is about to commit an offence or is committing an offence . And they must act because a constable of the home office forces would not arrive in sufficient time .

The protocol set out between Home office forces and BTP states that the BTP officers wont seek to use their powers outside of their normal jurisdiction unless completely necessary . So unless they are driving between railway sites and see a massive brawl they wont get involved in local policing .



Not as far as I am aware , a constable of any home office force has jurisdiction everywhere even outside of his force area . However the other way round the BTP dont quite have the same level of jurisdiction .

What you say is more in line with what I have heard through the grapevine in the past. But the other way around I might do some Googleing and find out one day lol

 

[DarloRich]

The last time I was assaulted the passenger got off at the next stop, and I took the train forward (on time) rather than keeping the doors locked until police attended, and taking time to recover my own composure, as I did not want to delay passengers (and I was aware the passenger could easily be tracked down).

The dozen or so passengers who witnessed the assault refused to give their details (an approach that was approved by a large number of members of this forum), once the train had left the station nobody from the company contacted me again for a week to see how I was, and BTP were unable to find the passengers details, despite them contacting Customer Services to complain about my lack of understanding of their "Behavioural Issues"!

The one thing I took from it is that the next time a similar incident happens, regardless of injuries sustained or not, I am going to hit the floor like a sack of spuds, screaming my head off, and that train will not move another foot. If this inconveniences anybody, I don't care, as experience shows they won't care whatever happens to me or my colleagues...

A sad tale and symptomatic of the "I’m all right jack" society in which we seem to live these days. A society many on here seem proud to be a member of. You are right; you should go down like a premier league footballer .

Your employer should also be ashamed. What happended to the chain of care? Where was management? Safety first!

 

[thelongestroad]

So if a BTP officer was driving in their police car from, for arguments sake, a railway station to another railway station and witnessed a traffic offence that warranted action but isn't deemed 'life or death' or imperative to public safety they would just ignore it? Or would they pull them over and let the civil/traffic police deal with it?

 

[muz379]

So if a BTP officer was driving in their police car from, for arguments sake, a railway station to another railway station and witnessed a traffic offence that warranted action but isn't deemed 'life or death' or imperative to public safety they would just ignore it? Or would they pull them over and let the civil/traffic police deal with it?

Yes they may pull someone over if the officer has the necessary driving permit allowing him to do this .However they would not regularly carry traffic FPN's though so there is not a lot they can do but issue some words of wisdom or radio for a local home office officer to come and deal with the situation .Either that or report the motorist for the offence which would lead in a court summons .

However if the person decides they dont want to be stopped and so fails to stop the officers are not allowed to pursue as they are not pursuit trained and the force policy is for them not to enter even the beginning of a pursuit which doesn't necessarily need pursuit training . Much like some local neighborhood police officers are not pursuit trained so cannot pursue a car that fails to stop . All they can do then is report the car to the local police who will then chase it up .

What their powers do not allow them to do ,is PNC the car and then go round to deal with the person suspected of driving it because in that situation they do not witness someone committing or likely to commit and offence .

Some officers are likely to ignore as it is not their issue to deal with or they are preoccupied ,I have seen the BTP stopping someone before tho , but the guy was on his phone with no seat belt on waiting to turn right into a one way street completely ignoring the no entry sign and the no right turn sign in front of him , but then some Home office force officers are likely to ignore traffic offences because they are on their way back to the station for a break , or they dont have pursuit training or a suitable vehicle and experience tells them the car is likely to make off .

 

[Dieseldriver]

In which case the local police would normally attend and hand it over to BTP later



I wasn't there and I assume that you weren't?

I'd rather hear the full story before passing judgement

Passing judgement? My post was aimed at someone suggesting that 'stopping the job' for this incident was overkill...

 

[GarethJohn]

How on earth did anyone know whether the Guard has had Sex or not?

 

[HowardGWR]

I've just done some looking up (wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_arrest
) and we are all entitled to arrest anyone to prevent a breach of the peace, in England and Wales, anyway. If pax came to the aid of guards.....

Flamingo in his anecdote told us that pax were not even willing to act as witness, let alone help him.

I agree with 455 Driver that staff need greater protection from the law so that pax know that they will be inside for a long time if they lay a finger on staff.

 

[Antman]

I've just done some looking up (wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_arrest
) and we are all entitled to arrest anyone to prevent a breach of the peace, in England and Wales, anyway. If pax came to the aid of guards.....

Flamingo in his anecdote told us that pax were not even willing to act as witness, let alone help him.

I agree with 455 Driver that staff need greater protection from the law so that pax know that they will be inside for a long time if they lay a finger on staff.

Clearly nobody should be assaulted whilst doing their job, although obviously in the real world it isn't unheard of. I know a police officer who has been assaulted during the course of his job (not seriously) but it is none the less assault and the person responsible didn't go to prison at all (he was full of remorse etc etc) so I'm afraid any such law for railway staff is just pie in the sky I'm afraid.

 

[muz379]

I've just done some looking up (wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_arrest
) and we are all entitled to arrest anyone to prevent a breach of the peace, in England and Wales, anyway. If pax came to the aid of guards.....

Flamingo in his anecdote told us that pax were not even willing to act as witness, let alone help him.

I agree with 455 Driver that staff need greater protection from the law so that pax know that they will be inside for a long time if they lay a finger on staff.

I personally would not intervene physically in this situation because it is not my job and if I get lamped or arrested and am unable to work for a period of time nobody is going to put food on my table for me , unlike the guard themselves who are fully insured by Virgin in case of events like this . Even as a guard myself I can understand why passengers would be reluctant to step in .

Although in most cases I would be prepared to act as a witness .

 

[londonbridge]

I once witnessed a passenger assault another traveler and gave a statement to BTP but the CPS dithered so long over what to charge the guy with that the deadline to charge him expired so no action was taken.

 

[deltic1989]

I've just done some looking up (wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_arrest
) and we are all entitled to arrest anyone to prevent a breach of the peace, in England and Wales, anyway. If pax came to the aid of guards.....

Section 24A Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 covers arrest without warrant by a person other than a constable: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A

Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967 allows the use of reasonable force to effect the arrest: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/58/section/3

I really feel for the guard in this situation and for the platform staff. No-one deserves to be abused either physically or verbally for doing their job. Though alas I have seen it far too many times, mostly on public transport.
On some occasions it seems that staff would rather let them get on with it than intervene for fear of assault or other action, which is a truly sad situation to be in.

 

[Merseysider]

On some occasions it seems that staff would rather let them get on with it than intervene for fear of assault or other action, which is a truly sad situation to be in.

I wholeheartedly agree with this point, having prior experience. I was about 16 at the time and at Conway Park where a lout was assaulting his (assumed) girlfriend. The member of staff present did not intervene and it took me punching someone twice my size (and getting clouted back!) before the assault stopped.

I truly feel for the TM, whether he got pushed, punched or worse; unless he was physically provoking said pax it's completely unacceptable.

Many people are afraid to intervene purely because of the chance of losing their job if a proper report gets filed. Some countries (eg Canada) have a "duty to rescue" law which means you have to help someone in need unless it puts your life in danger. I think something similar in this country would not go amiss.

 

[Flamingo]

Staff will not intervene physically as 1. It is expressly forbidden by every TOC and 2. we are not trained to.

Even in cases where various police forces have commended staff who intervened and it prevented serious injury or death, the employers line has been "Very good, but don't do it again and nobody else copy them".

 

[muz379]

I wholeheartedly agree with this point, having prior experience. I was about 16 at the time and at Conway Park where a lout was assaulting his (assumed) girlfriend. The member of staff present did not intervene and it took me punching someone twice my size (and getting clouted back!) before the assault stopped.

I truly feel for the TM, whether he got pushed, punched or worse; unless he was physically provoking said pax it's completely unacceptable.

Many people are afraid to intervene purely because of the chance of losing their job if a proper report gets filed. Some countries (eg Canada) have a "duty to rescue" law which means you have to help someone in need unless it puts your life in danger. I think something similar in this country would not go amiss.

they have a similar general duty to act in france . But then If I am driving by a lake and see some 15 year old kid that should have known better drowning in it . I am then expected to risk my life trying to save him - And If I claim I am not that strong a swimmer and I did not feel confident swimming in open water it is then made a big issue out of in court and I am expected to substantiate this claim .

I prefer it in this country where you actually have more choice over the situations you intervene in . If I saw some drunken fool struggling to swim in a freezing canal I would merely get help . I am not putting my neck on the line because he cant handle his Ale . But If I saw a young child struggling in a swimming pool like I did once on Holiday , I would intervene to drag them out . The child knows no better and is innocent .

Personally I dont think a general duty to act is a good thing .

That means If I am working tomorrow and some guy decides he wants to beat his gf up on my train I then have to physically intervene despite the fact that he might be more enraged and violent and potential carrying a weapon than I am prepared to be . I dont feel that should be my place to step in . If I wanted that responsibility I would apply for a job with the police (A career I did consider once ) . Not in any way excusing what he is doing as it is unacceptable to beat anyone up let alone a women but she is the one who knows what he is like and continues in a relationship with him . Whereas I am not in any way connected with this guy and am merely going about my Job .

I know it sounds a bit selfish and insensitive but ultimately I have a family I have to put food on the table for and they are my priority . I am sure they would not appreciate me getting hurt protecting someone else and not having any money coming in as I cannot work .


I had the same policy when I worked in a shop , I would shout and get assistance to stop a shop lifter but I myself would not physically intervene with them . My employer tried to make an Issue out of It until I pointed out that their insurance did not cover me undertaking the activities of a security guard or police officer and so I would not be doing so .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Staff will not intervene physically as 1. It is expressly forbidden by every TOC and 2. we are not trained to.

Even in cases where various police forces have commended staff who intervened and it prevented serious injury or death, the employers line has been "Very good, but don't do it again and nobody else copy them".

Particularly point number 2 .

If you injure someone trying to restrain them as has happened even to people whose business it is to do this (G4s immigration services ) The company are going to drop you right in it faster than you can even say I was only protecting myself

It is then a matter for you to negotiate with the injured person and the police . and completely your matter to defend .

 

[dvboy]

No, in the UK (apart from Scotland) a police officer is a police officer is a police officer. They all hold a royal warrant as a constable of the Queen and all can carry out the duties of a police officer both on and off duty in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (I think with NI). In fact only two days ago I had an off duty member of a terrestrial force assist with a passenger issue on the train. A lot of the time however it is far preferable to have the BTP deal with railway incidents because, obviously, they are specially trained in matters to do with the railway.

The BTP itself historically only dealt with railway matters but now has the same powers as a normal terrestrial police officer off the railway.

Police officers here are permitted to travel for free on trains within the PTE area, on the proviso they are expected to assist with any incident should it be necessary. They have the same arrangement on buses, and various retailers who offer discount. I assume there are similar arrangements in other parts of the country

edit: I've just seen that there's a thread on this in the Fares forum.

 

[12CSVT]

they have a similar general duty to act in france . But then If I am driving by a lake and see some 15 year old kid that should have known better drowning in it . I am then expected to risk my life trying to save him - And If I claim I am not that strong a swimmer and I did not feel confident swimming in open water it is then made a big issue out of in court and I am expected to substantiate this claim .

My understanding of the French law is that you would be expected to call the emergency services in those circumstances, not put your personal safety at risk.

 

[muz379]

My understanding of the French law is that you would be expected to call the emergency services in those circumstances, not put your personal safety at risk.

French Civil and Criminal law says you are required to render assistance to someone in peril if It can be done without endangering the life of the rescuer .

So if you are a confident strong swimmer coming about this scenario I mentioned then you would be required to jump In I would argue as there is a reasonable prospect you could rescue the person without endangering your own life .

Even not being a confident and strong swimmer and being able to prove this you would be expected to try and effect a rescue from dry land using a life saving ring or a rope .

Obviously if the situation was different and it was a raging overflowing river , even a strong swimmer would not be held liable under civil or criminal law in France if they did not jump in , but they may still be expected to try and throw a rope in or summon emergency service assistance .

I suppose you are right to suggest that the first hurdle to escape liability under the general duty of care in France would be to get the emergency services . But after that depending on your personal characteristics you could still be held liable for not doing more than that

Like I am a trained first aider . If I witnessed a car crash and saw someone bleeding heavily and refused to do anything about this and they suffered life changing injury or death as a result in the UK I could not be held Liable for anything as I have no duty of Care to this person . In France I could well be held liable under the criminal and civil law for this .

 

[RJ]

Hmmm...I've been reading this thread with interest, both as a customer facing member of staff and a passenger who has had to deal with some morons who TOCs employ as guards.

If you poke an angry bear with a stick, never be naïve enough to think that it won't attack you. Just because it isn't right for an assault to take place, it doesn't mean a member of staff can behave any way they like to people and they'll take it with grace. I'm not saying any member of staff deserves to be assaulted, but some certainly comport themselves in such a way that they put themselves at unnecessary risk.

No offence intended to anyone in the grade, but if anyone is offended, can you in your heart of hearts tell me that you don't know of any other guards that do anything to unnecesarily rile people up? Because I've been in messrooms with guards and amongst all the foul mouthed banter, are often tales almost bragging about how they've bullied or otherwise overasserted their authority over passengers.

Some of these guards are known by their colleagues as really nice people. Yet when they have to deal with a difficult passenger, they're actually vile, vitriolic pieces of work. I've been travelling off duty and defused such situations simply because I would sooner get home on time than be delayed by the guard winding someone up and being assaulted. Some nutters have a low tolerance for this kind of thing and will lash out because they've been wound up. It is sometimes the case that the person in the uniform is no less badminded than the person who lamps them.

At the end of the day, what does taking risks with persisting with unreasonable people achieve? Because neither the family at home, the employer who loses productivity or the punters who get delayed are going to be thankful if it goes wrong.

When I read these stories, I wonder just what happened in the events leading up to the assault. I also wonder if there was anything at all that could have been done by the member of staff to avoid things escalating to that level and if so, why they weren't done.

How common is it for people to punch a member of staff who has said nothing to them or backed away at the very first sign of conflict? I bet it's not common. Not to say it doesn't happen, as there are cases where a physical assault takes place with no provocation. I sympathise with those who have experienced this.

 

[TheEdge]

No offence intended to anyone in the grade, but if anyone is offended, can you in your heart of hearts tell me that you don't know of any other guards that do anything to unnecesarily rile people up? Because I've been in messrooms with guards and amongst all the foul mouthed banter, are often tales almost bragging about how they've bullied or otherwise overasserted their authority over passengers.

Of course there are the fighty ones, just like there are the ticket office staff, the drivers, the customer service staff, the police, the retail staff and every other job position in the country. Glad to know your opinion is right out there that we are the worst grade on the railway and deserve all hell we get, at least we have a starting point.

Some of these guards are known by their colleagues as really nice people. Yet when they have to deal with a difficult passenger, they're actually vile, vitriolic pieces of work. I've been travelling off duty and defused such situations simply because I would sooner get home on time than be delayed by the guard winding someone up and being assaulted.

I'd love some details of these situations where you just rocked up, presumably not in (full) uniform and sorted it all out. And then why you have not been immediately hired as a nationwide advisor to any industry where confrontation happens and tell us all how to avoid it.

When I read these stories, I wonder just what happened in the events leading up to the assault. I also wonder if there was anything at all that could have been done by the member of staff to avoid things escalating to that level and if so, why they weren't done.

Some people turn around as soon as they don't get their own way. Last week I got a double barrelled verbal assault, f-ing and blinding, jobsworth and all that. No doubt to you I did something awful to have deserved it and should have handled the situation differently. What did I do? "Sorry Sir, the train is full, I cannot carry your bike". For what its worth at my TOC as part of post-assault meetings the question of did the employee contribute is included.

I would love to take you out of your utopian ticket office and prove to you the job of the guard is not some easy thing where all our problems are self caused and you could do it better...

 

[455driver]

I would love to take you out of your utopian ticket office and prove to you the job of the guard is not some easy thing where all our problems are self caused and you could do it better...

He doesnt have time for that because he is looking for the latest easement he can misuse to save himself 50p.

 

[TheEdge]

He doesnt have time for that because he is looking for the latest easement he can misuse to save himself 50p.

And then be shocked that said guard who sells the same 30 odd tickets 95% of the time doesn't know an easement that takes 3 hours of looking for alternate routes via routing maps is valid. Because they should look on iKB on the PC they have in the back cab...