How do staff on the railways communicate?

[tshannon]

I'm working on a project about improving communication between staff on the railways. Whether they are on trains, in the stations or in control centres.

I have a few questions that I'm hoping some of you can help with.

Do train staff always have radios to communicate between each other?
Can they talk to the driver or is the driver in isolation while the train is moving?
Can they talk to other trains, station or control staff?
How does this differ between the inter-city trains and the small local trains?
Do they use mobile phones also?
Are there often black spots in cuttings and tunnels, how much of a problem is that?
If there's a problem such as train breaking down or obstruction how is that communicated?

Thanks in advance to any answers you can give.

 

[sarahj]

As someone who works on commuter services around the south coast, the answer is:

No, we have a phone/PA system, and if needed a bell code.
Yes we can
The driver can talk to the signal box, I can talk to whoever I need to.
Dont know, but mainly the same.
Thats how i talk to folks outside the train, its called a mobile phone
Yes, can be a major pain in the behind.
Driver talking to signaler, emergency button on the GSM-R system, lineside phones if needed, mobile phones, flags. lights, things that go bang, waving of hands (I surrender)

 

[trentside]

I'm working on a project about improving communication between staff on the railways. Whether they are on trains, in the stations or in control centres.

I have a few questions that I'm hoping some of you can help with.

Do train staff always have radios to communicate between each other?
Can they talk to the driver or is the driver in isolation while the train is moving?
Can they talk to other trains, station or control staff?
How does this differ between the inter-city trains and the small local trains?
Do they use mobile phones also?
Are there often black spots in cuttings and tunnels, how much of a problem is that?
If there's a problem such as train breaking down or obstruction how is that communicated?

Thanks in advance to any answers you can give.

Hopefully I can provide some answers for you. I can't quite format this as I'd like (due to being on my iPad) but I've used numbers to correspond to your questions.

1) The trains are equipped with radios to allow outside communication, the old CSR (Cab Secure Radio) and NRN (National Radio Network) are being phased out in favour of the new GSM-R system. The radios do not allow communication between staff on a train, but do allow communication with locations on the outside.

2) Trains have internal communication systems. On older trains this is a 'cab to cab', with phones in the cab that staff use to communicate with each other (by using a 3-3 signal code). On some units, communication points are located in the train - but I don't work any like this, so will leave it to others to comment on that. Driver-Passenger communication is available in emergencies on some units via the pass-comms (emergency handles).

3) We can communicate with stations and control via GSM-R or other radio, but on guard operated trains this will usually be done via mobile. Drivers cannot use mobiles while driving, so will use GSM-R.

4) It really depends more on the class of train, not it's designated service type so this is a difficult question to answer. I work 15x units which are quite basic, with just GSM-R, NRN and cab-to-cab - plus our mobiles. More modern units have more points to allow crew to communicate I believe.

5) At my TOC we are all issued with mobiles. Guards are used quite frequently as we get service updates emailed to us, and can call stations and control for all sorts of reasons. Drivers cannot use their phones while the train is moving, but can use them to call signal boxes out of GSM-R areas to save having to get down and use the phones on the signal posts.

6) I'm not sure about the radios (in theory, not with GSM-R anywhere) but there are some mobile black spots as there are with ordinary mobiles. Not a huge issue where I work for me personally during normal running.

7) To the controlling signaller via the GSM-R or via phone (including signal post or line side phones). It varies how this is done depending on circumstances.

Hope this helps - I'm sure people will be along soon to correct any errors. A lot of these questions are slanted towards drivers, so some of them may have more input than me on the guards side of things.

 

[tsr]

In terms of communication between onboard staff, a few trains have crews who use handheld radio systems (I'm principally thinking of heritage services, including some used over Network Rail infrastructure), but in general, as sarahj says, they are not in place. Many trains, especially more modern ones, have phones not just in the cabs but also at the guard operating panels by some of the doors in any given coach. They will be used to clarify information which can't be transmitted by bell codes between the driver & guard, or for PA announcements (generally, of course, announcements are for service information, but more importantly for emergency advice to passengers, and they can also be used to ask for any off-duty staff to help in an incident).

You may or may not be familiar with bell codes - these are effectively sequential rings of bells between either the panels and the cabs, or just between cabs. An explanation is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_code - these are safety-critical communications for tasks involving the running, stopping or dispatch of the train, and all apart from 3-2-1 (testing the doors) must be repeated back (eg. guard sends 2, driver repeats 2 back if safe) so that the staff are sure they have a clear understanding of what is going on.

 

[TheEdge]

Do train staff always have radios to communicate between each other?

No.

Can they talk to the driver or is the driver in isolation while the train is moving?

The driver is never isolated from anywhere. A guard can talk to a driver whenever is needed for operational purposes (although at times like approaching a station or red signal its a sensible idea not to). I have a feeling I've heard in non emergencies signalmen need to bring a train to a stand using signals before calling a driver (might be wrong there)

Can they talk to other trains, station or control staff?

Using GSM-R a driver can talk to various critical places, usually signalers, fleet technicians and controllers. I think it is possible to talk to other drivers in RETB (Radio Electric Token Block) areas, but not intentionally, just how the radio works. Guards and other on train staff can talk to whoever they need to.

How does this differ between the inter-city trains and the small local trains?

It doesn't really. Same systems. Although older stock used on some intercity services can sometimes present issues. I work on two older designs of coach (Mk2 and Mk3), on Mk2s (as operated by me) there is no way to talk to the driver short of face to face and on the Mk3s (again in my experience) there is only one handset in the train where I can talk to the driver.

Do they use mobile phones also?

As has been said, drivers cannot but other on train crew can.

Are there often black spots in cuttings and tunnels, how much of a problem is that?

It can be an issue if you desperately need to call someone out of course on a mobile but you generally learn quite fast where blackspots are. In theory GSM-R coverage is 100% via purpose built masts.

If there's a problem such as train breaking down or obstruction how is that communicated?

As anything else really. A non emergency problem would be communicated by the driver and or guard either over the phone or GSM-R as appropriate. Also when needed crew can call 999 just like anyone else. In an emergency (dangerous obstruction/fatality etc) there are two special buttons on the GSM-R. The yellow Urgent call button which is big and yellow (!) and goes through to the signaller as an urgent call which needs to be answered ASAP (I think an alarm goes off in the box). The REC (Rail Emergency Call) button is big and red (!) and when pressed not only sends an urgent call to the signaller but will also broadcast a message to all nearby trains which has to be acknowledged by the drivers who have to stop and not proceed until contacted. Exceedingly embarrassing when pressed in error!

Also not mentioned yet (I think) is the railways actually use a dedicated phone network, while most places have a standard BT number many places also have an internal number, normally 81xxxxx.

 

[HSTEd]

Well once upon a time British Rail had the largest 'private' telephone system in the world.

 

[Tomnick]

Well once upon a time British Rail had the largest 'private' telephone system in the world.

It's still there, and still pretty enormous. I'm not quite sure who 'owns' it nowadays, but it's be interesting to learn about examples of other systems on a similar scale!

 

[trentside]

It's still there, and still pretty enormous. I'm not quite sure who 'owns' it nowadays, but it's be interesting to learn about examples of other systems on a similar scale!

I believe it now comes under Network Rail.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

In terms of communication between onboard staff, a few trains have crews who use handheld radio systems (I'm principally thinking of heritage services, including some used over Network Rail infrastructure),

Loco hauled services will have handheld radio communication between the guard and driver, at least our's do.

 

[TheEdge]

Loco hauled services will have handheld radio communication between the guard and driver, at least our's do.

Our proper hauled sets (90s+Mk3s) have a proper cab to cab system rather than a radio.

 

[Taunton]

in non emergencies signalmen need to bring a train to a stand using signals before calling a driver

I've never quite understood this concern for train drivers not to have any conversation while driving. Aircraft pilots, where very many small ones are flown single-handed, have to keep up a constant 2-way dialogue with controllers on the ground for absolutely critical instructions, including listening out to what everyone else is doing on a shared frequency, meanwhile having a far more challenging task to control the plane in three dimensions, where the train is basically controlled in one direction, horizontally forwards.

 

[Delta558]

I've never quite understood this concern for train drivers not to have any conversation while driving. Aircraft pilots, where very many small ones are flown single-handed, have to keep up a constant 2-way dialogue with controllers on the ground for absolutely critical instructions, including listening out to what everyone else is doing on a shared frequency, meanwhile having a far more challenging task to control the plane in three dimensions, where the train is basically controlled in one direction, horizontally forwards.

Don't get me started on that one! Having been involved in both industries I find the 'isolation' of the driver quite frankly ridiculous. From a multi-crew environment where, as you allude to, many systems are being controlled and monitored while the pilot flying is controlling / responding to pitch, roll, yaw, thrust and drag and at the same time keeping a constant look-out for other aircraft or responding to the pilot not-flying's observations of same, the railway's current viewpoint that a driver 'must not be disturbed' seems odd. The aviation industry also accepts the catering staff entering the cockpit (regulated, but it is allowed), but the railway regulates the Guard going into the cab! Yes, concentration is important for the driver and 'chit-chat' can be distracting. However, an extra pair of eyes can be a good thing if a professional attitude to the situation is taken, whether it be a driver travelling as part of his duties or a guard who has popped into the cab because he's at that end of the train having finished his other duties. That has been proved on several occasions that I know of

 

[nottinghamcity]

It's still there, and still pretty enormous. I'm not quite sure who 'owns' it nowadays, but it's be interesting to learn about examples of other systems on a similar scale!

The pre-privatisation electricity supply industry had a nationwide telephone system, linking the CEGB power stations, transmission substations, offices and area board major substations and offices. Some mobile VHF radio patch boards existed too. It was called ESINET, and was pretty extensive. It has fragmented latterly, and I think its bones formed National Grid's internal phone system. As distribution network operators have consolidated they after once again forming expansive networks, ours stretching from Cornwall and Pembrokeshire to Milton Keynes and north Lincolnshire. I suspect operations like the NHS and the civil service would have similar networks.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I've never quite understood this concern for train drivers not to have any conversation while driving. Aircraft pilots, where very many small ones are flown single-handed, have to keep up a constant 2-way dialogue with controllers on the ground for absolutely critical instructions, including listening out to what everyone else is doing on a shared frequency, meanwhile having a far more challenging task to control the plane in three dimensions, where the train is basically controlled in one direction, horizontally forwards.

It's industry reaction to incidents as far as I can tell. All it takes is one fail to call, over run, TPWS intervention or SPAD to be blamed on a second party in the cab distracting the driver and those in charge will kick hard against the driver being disturbed.

 

[Abpj17]

Don't get me started on that one! Having been involved in both industries I find the 'isolation' of the driver quite frankly ridiculous. From a multi-crew environment where, as you allude to, many systems are being controlled and monitored while the pilot flying is controlling / responding to pitch, roll, yaw, thrust and drag and at the same time keeping a constant look-out for other aircraft or responding to the pilot not-flying's observations of same, the railway's current viewpoint that a driver 'must not be disturbed' seems odd. The aviation industry also accepts the catering staff entering the cockpit (regulated, but it is allowed), but the railway regulates the Guard going into the cab! Yes, concentration is important for the driver and 'chit-chat' can be distracting. However, an extra pair of eyes can be a good thing if a professional attitude to the situation is taken, whether it be a driver travelling as part of his duties or a guard who has popped into the cab because he's at that end of the train having finished his other duties. That has been proved on several occasions that I know of

I'd assume it's partly the lack of a co-pilot and partly the fact that there is a lot more to do on a train (risk of hitting stuff etc.) than on a plane cruising high in the air (landing/taking off is obviously different)

 

[O L Leigh]

I do find it slightly annoying that my TOC's instructions are that I'm meant to stop the train before speaking to the signaller on the radio and that the conductor/TM cannot speak to me on the cab-to-cab while the train is in motion. From some of the rumblings we've heard it does seem that we're just about the only ones who have to do this.

Frankly I would rather exercise my judgement as a professional about whether or not stopping the train is necessary. I've used the cab radio on the move before with my former TOC and never experienced any problems with handling the concentration load required. If the communication starts to get a bit more complex and I need to concentrate fully on the message I would tell the signaller that I need to stop and will call straight back, but most times the communications are routine and don't require that level of attention (unless it's Gloucester box where the signallers talk at 100mph in an impenetrable accent).

That said, I can see the point. I can feel how talking on the radio diverts my attention away from driving and reduces my vigilance.

O L Leigh

 

[Bigfoot]

The gsmr radio can be used to dial any railway internal telephone in the country.

 

[tshannon]

Thanks everyone. This has been extremely useful.

I get the impression that GSM-R is supposed to fix all those communication problems but doesn't quite live up to that promise. A few people said that theoretically it's 100% coverage but not in reality, how close is it?

Also from what I've read GSM-R supports data communications, but it seems it's mostly used for voice, is that right? What kind of GSM-R devices do you use? There are the in-cab radios, but also handhelds, are they common, or do most staff just have regular mobile phones?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[sarahj]

I have a four year old blackberry that can hold a charge for about 2 days

 

[TheEdge]

Also from what I've read GSM-R supports data communications, but it seems it's mostly used for voice, is that right? What kind of GSM-R devices do you use? There are the in-cab radios, but also handhelds, are they common, or do most staff just have regular mobile phones?

There are three types of GSM-R device I know of. There is the in cab model which is permanently mounted into each cab. There is then "desktop" device which is what controllers and signallers will have. There is also a portable GSM-R unit but its not exactly a mobile. Its only portable in that it can be moved. The ones I've seen are massive lumps which need two people to move and are generally kept at stations to be put onto trains which have had their proper GSM-R unit fail.

All staff (at my TOC anyway) will have the same mobile capable of calling all external BT numbers and all internal +81 railway numbers.

 

[TDK]

It's still there, and still pretty enormous. I'm not quite sure who 'owns' it nowadays, but it's be interesting to learn about examples of other systems on a similar scale!

I am not sure now but a company called RACAL used to supply the telephone service to the railway industry.

 

[LowLevel]

I do find it slightly annoying that my TOC's instructions are that I'm meant to stop the train before speaking to the signaller on the radio and that the conductor/TM cannot speak to me on the cab-to-cab while the train is in motion. From some of the rumblings we've heard it does seem that we're just about the only ones who have to do this.

Frankly I would rather exercise my judgement as a professional about whether or not stopping the train is necessary. I've used the cab radio on the move before with my former TOC and never experienced any problems with handling the concentration load required. If the communication starts to get a bit more complex and I need to concentrate fully on the message I would tell the signaller that I need to stop and will call straight back, but most times the communications are routine and don't require that level of attention (unless it's Gloucester box where the signallers talk at 100mph in an impenetrable accent).

That said, I can see the point. I can feel how talking on the radio diverts my attention away from driving and reduces my vigilance.

O L Leigh

The cab to cab rule is stupid. On ours we are instructed not to ring the driver when running on restrictive aspects or on a station approach, except when it's urgent, and the driver has the ultimate discretion whether to respond.

 

[edwin_m]

I am not sure now but a company called RACAL used to supply the telephone service to the railway industry.

Yes, on privatisation the BR phone network was sold off to what was known as Racal BRT. The Wikipedia page has some useful info although it doesn't seem to be in a very logical order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Telecommunications

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

Some fine answers. I would add that,in mess rooms,train crew normally communicate by insult!!!

 

[EM2]

There are handheld GSM-R units, we had them for station use for a while, but they really were not much good.

 

[6Gman]

Some fine answers. I would add that,in mess rooms,train crew normally communicate by insult!!!

Beat me to it!

 

[tsr]

Some fine answers. I would add that,in mess rooms,train crew normally communicate by insult!!!

Or indeed by moan, or beating with a rolled up newspaper, or forcible exchange of caffeine products, or declassification of someone else's milk, or pointedly staring at a notice case...

 

[455driver]

The cab to cab rule is stupid. On ours we are instructed not to ring the driver when running on restrictive aspects or on a station approach, except when it's urgent, and the driver has the ultimate discretion whether to respond.

As they do with any message*!

* except stop messages obviously.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Loco hauled services will have handheld radio communication between the guard and driver, at least our's do.

Similar arrangements are in place for communication between station staff at many stations - those stations which manage the departure of long passenger trains might have tens of platform staff on the ground at any moment, but over a very wide area, and many, or all in communication by mobile radio sets issued to platform staff.

But I greatly admire the persistence of informal communications protocols among staff which are very active on a regular basis, such as holding up a hand (or two) to display the platform number of a relevant service by the number of raised fingers; e.g. the set we should clean now will be arriving in platform <n>, or or the set that we're taking to Xxxxxx is now in platform <n>, etc. and of course the great communication tool supplied to human for messages over slightly longer distances: raising the arm, or waving the arms. Lastly, there's the whistle, the bat and the lamp (torch), employed to communicate critical dispatch information, and similar procedures for on-track warnings, tens of thousands of times every day between rail staff. I'd need to be persuaded that r.f. comms is used more often than the totality of all of those more physical forms of communication.

[As an aside, I am interested in those non-technologically enhanced forms of communication (though recognised gestures etc.) and how they can be effective in the workplace]

 

[Hyphen]

There is also a portable GSM-R unit but its not exactly a mobile. Its only portable in that it can be moved. The ones I've seen are massive lumps which need two people to move and are generally kept at stations to be put onto trains which have had their proper GSM-R unit fail.

No, there are proper handsets out there.

A couple of years ago (before they'd started their main GSM-R project) when ATW were making regular diversions over the Bishton Flyover east of Newport, train staff were handed GSM-R handsets similar to the below to contact the signaller in an emergency.

http://www.sierrawireless.com/productsandservices/Sagemcom_GSMR_Devices/TiGR_350R.aspx