London Bridge reconstruction works

[greatkingrat]

No, it is just the Greenwich services that are affected. There will still be trains from Charing Cross to Hayes/Orpington/Bexleyheath/Sidcup.

 

[Bald Rick]

No, it is just the Greenwich services that are affected. There will still be trains from Charing Cross to Hayes/Orpington/Bexleyheath/Sidcup.

+ Charlton, Woolwich, Abbey Wood, Sevenoaks.

 

[theageofthetra]

Trains to Hayes are diverted to Cannon St in the evening. Ruining a pleasurable evening at the theatre by involving a change of train in Lewisham. This change is permanent and most Hayes line residents are blissfully unaware.

 

[acepepper]

This is good stuff. I'm starting to get a picture of how it will all work. Maybe it will be better

 

[RichmondCommu]

It will relieve pressure, no doubt about that, but it's not going to be the Nirvana that those selling it are trying to make out.

It all Smells Like Teen Spirit to me. Can you see what I did there? What prize do I win?

 

[Bald Rick]

It all Smells Like Teen Spirit to me. Can you see what I did there? What prize do I win?

Bleach.

(Sorry, for going OT. Never mind).

 

[fusionblue]

"Borough market isn't the main bottleneck for Charing Cross services - trains can be timed to follow 90 seconds apart, and regularly beat that. The bottlenecks are Charing Cross platforms, Thameslink trains crossing at Met Jn and Spa Rd Jn, and SE trains crossing from slow side to Charing X or fast side to Cannon St on the eastern approaches. All being fixed save for the CHX platforms."

And the crossover right outside Lewisham station, still not being used to it's maximum potential by dropping all the conflicting movements and send trains "in a straight line only" or completely rebuild it to remove the conflicts.

"Nobody has ever sold the Thameslink programme as huge improvements for SE though - it's always been huge improvements for the Thameslink route, with some improvements for SE."

That depends entirely on what the actual definition of the thameslink route. If you mean bedford to brighton then yes - both sides of the thames see change, longer trains and more destinations. If the Loop or to Sevenoaks then no, it remains 2tph and nothing changes.

 

[Bald Rick]

And the crossover right outside Lewisham station, still not being used to it's maximum potential by dropping all the conflicting movements and send trains "in a straight line only" or completely rebuild it to remove the conflicts.

Fair shout - Tanners Hill 'fly down' doubling does help that.

 

[ComUtoR]

+ Charlton, Woolwich, Abbey Wood, Sevenoaks.

What about services from New Cross ?

Charlton you can swing a left and come up via Lewisham providng direct services to Cannon and the Cross. Everything past Charlton is now forced to change at London Bridge.

New Cross is easily served by all routes down the line because Lewisham provides all options. But if after New Cross your then also forced to change at London Bridge how is that better for SE commuters ? If theageofthetra is correct then its another forced change.

Isn't this a backwards step for the railway. I thought the move was toward more direct services rather than mandated changes. Making your morning commute reliant on 2 trains is gonna upset people in the long term.

 

[swt_passenger]

Here sir! Been busy watching the football. Wish I'd had that 4/1 on England win and both teams score.

The very man I expected to chip in, thanks...

 

[hwl]

What about services from New Cross ?

Charlton you can swing a left and come up via Lewisham providng direct services to Cannon and the Cross. Everything past Charlton is now forced to change at London Bridge.

New Cross is easily served by all routes down the line because Lewisham provides all options. But if after New Cross your then also forced to change at London Bridge how is that better for SE commuters ? If theageofthetra is correct then its another forced change.

Isn't this a backwards step for the railway. I thought the move was toward more direct services rather than mandated changes. Making your morning commute reliant on 2 trains is gonna upset people in the long term.

New Cross:
Peak - Cannon Street only as outlied by Bald Rick
Off peak - Saturdays - Sundays not entirely clear though with Cannon Street soon open on Sundays possibly just Cannon Street except for engineering work?

Direct Services etc. - But they could actually end up with a quicker more reliable journey by mandating changes as they are doing. (ie. helping eliminate the 2 mile crawl into LBG which isn't helped by services swapping lines due to alternating CST/CHX services from a particular route. This mixed destination pattern means CHX and CST delays are more interlinked and breaking this link as much as possible will help overall reliability - there will still be some linkage due to the looping of some of the Dartford line services)

Post 2018 the average time between Up services in peak hour is
CHX 2m08s (currently 4m00, 15 tph in 60m)
CST 2m42s (currently 2m24, 25 tph in 60m)

It appears the policy is actually shifting to quicker overall journey time i.e. higher frequencies and less waiting (i.e. assume half the gap between services at the original station for calculation purposes) rather than direct services.

The 14tph peak hour services (Hastings 2, Orpington 4, Hayes 3, Barnhurst 2, Ramsgate 1, Ashford 1, Dover 1) that use the up loop that will stop in the future will give a lot more passengers on certain lines a direct LBG services so there may be less changing further out or an appreciably higher service level. The services through the up loop do seem to be a bit less rammed that the stopping services so this might help spread out the load across services.
(The look on the faces of the long distance service users when the train fills up at London Bridge with lots of metro passengers making it harder for them to get from "their" seats to the door at Charing Cross will be something to behold.)

 

[ComUtoR]

The services through the up loop do seem to be a bit less rammed than the stopping services so this might help spread out the load across services.
(The look on the faces of the long distance service users when the train fills up at London Bridge with lots of metro passengers making it harder for them to get from "their" seats to the door at Charing Cross will be something to behold.)

It is going to require a culture shift in commuters. Shifting from sheep to the more independent goat.

The more I hear about the changes makes me understand more why they have made such a big thing about the concourse being so huge. Sounds like London Bridge is going to be the new Clapham Jn.

Cheers hwl

 

[hwl]

It is going to require a culture shift in commuters. Shifting from sheep to the more independent goat.

The more I hear about the changes makes me understand more why they have made such a big thing about the concourse being so huge. Sounds like London Bridge is going to be the new Clapham Jn.

Cheers hwl

May be part of the reason for keeping the split destinations (i.e. CST/CHX) on some routes for so long was the inability of the old/current London Bridge to handle the transfer volumes. Now with that changing there is finally the possibly to move towards a mostly single destination pattern in the future.
i.e. all services to X from Charing Cross so if you want to get on at London Bridge you just have to go to the P6/7 Island (obviously some destinations will have multiple service patterns so might end up with services to both CHX and CST.)

I'm not sure that the effect of Crossrail is properly on most SE passengers radar screens either.

All CHX services stopping at LBG also has the advantage that it is less critical for some services to stop at Lewisham for DLR interchange to Canary Wharf etc. as Jubilee at London Bridge is a more viable alternative (assume at least 5 mins less than the other current option of changing at Waterloo East?)

 

[Bald Rick]

But if after New Cross your then also forced to change at London Bridge how is that better for SE commuters ?

Well it's not so good news for New Cross (and St Johns) punters who wish to commute to Waterloo East or Charing Cross. But this is (at a guess) a minority of those who use New Cross and St. John's stations, and the change at London Bridge will be simple.

However it is good news for punters from those stations commuting to Cannon St (much better frequency) and for every other SE commuter who travels via London Bridge who in future will be much less likely to be delayed by trains crossing over in front of them.

 

[telstarbox]

Trains to Hayes are diverted to Cannon St in the evening. Ruining a pleasurable evening at the theatre by involving a change of train in Lewisham. This change is permanent and most Hayes line residents are blissfully unaware.

Hopefully the Bakerloo extension will solve that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it'll be huge. At the moment, because there's only one regular CX-up platform, when a CX-bound train stops at London Bridge, it blocks all the trains behind it (except for the small number that skip LBG) until it leaves the station. During the day that's not a problem, but during the morning rush hour there are normally so many people wanting to get on and off every such train that dwell times end up being massive.

Another factor which hasn't been mentioned is that with the redesign, there will be multiple escalators from the new concourse up to the through platforms rather than just the ramps at the western end as now. This means that passengers entering the station will spread out more and should help keep dwell times down.

 

[samuelmorris]

To be honest, the ramps are pretty steep. Less able bodied people (but not necessarily wheelchair bound) I think would appreciate escalators to the Southeastern concourse.

As for the Bakerloo extension, hasn't that been stated to be at least 20 years away? (In my humble opinion, having to change trains somewhere does not ruin a whole night out )

 

[fromthemurkyde]

Hi, I joined yesterday but because of that my first post was in moderation so the thread past by before it was put up. I'll put it below and hopefully someone has an answer about service cuts on the Greenwich line from january with the rebuilding work -

"With the final SE metro timetables out it looks like a substantial cut from January in the high peak PM hour of 5:30pm - 6:30pm. Can someone tell me if I've got the numbers wrong as if not there may possibly be big problems come January?

Headline figure is a reduction in passenger capacity from 9521 to 7680 from London terminals out along the Greenwich line at that busy time.

9 trains are cut to 6. The remaining 6 all stop at Woolwich Dockyard so can't be longer than 10 car. Can someone confirm that as I'm still told 10 is the max but ANY chance of a workaround?

Currently there's 4x Class 376 10 car running, 4x 8 car Networkers and 1x 6 car networker. Assuming all 6 remaining trains become 10 car class 376 that gives the drop in capacity mentioned above - about 20%.

However 2 of the remaining 6 will go on to Gravesend. Is it still the case that Class 376 will be prevented from running this far? I've been told they will now run that far, and indeed I was on a 376 from Charing X to Medway the other day so assume that it is ok.

One other thing I cover in my blog is new developments. Almost every station on the Greenwich line is having large developments going up right now for occupation in 2015. It may be a bit of a nightmare. Some may take the DLR or change patterns but the scale of cuts at the busiest PM hour seems so great that issues will occur.

I've long said the work is needed, but if 12 cars are not running on the line by the time train paths are reduced then that's very poor form as the issue should've been sorted over recent years by securing SDO ready stock plus other things like internally refurbing networkers with 2x2 seats and higher cstanding capacity."

 

[DynamicSpirit]

(The look on the faces of the long distance service users when the train fills up at London Bridge with lots of metro passengers making it harder for them to get from "their" seats to the door at Charing Cross will be something to behold.)

lol! As a metro passenger, I prefer not to change at London Bridge to get to Charing Cross, However, I have to admit that if I do have to change, it's often very nice to find that the effort of walking over the bridge to Platform 6 gets rewarded with a long-distance train with those seats that are soooooo much comfier than what we get on the metro services. Turns the last 8 minutes of the journey into heaven.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

May be part of the reason for keeping the split destinations (i.e. CST/CHX) on some routes for so long was the inability of the old/current London Bridge to handle the transfer volumes.

It's possible, but I doubt it would make much difference. I'd imagine the proportion of passengers who deliberately wait for a direct train to CHX or CST, as opposed to just getting on the first train and changing if necessary, would be pretty small.

I'm not sure that the effect of Crossrail is properly on most SE passengers radar screens either.

Well realistically, the only SE passengers who are going to benefit much from Crossrail are the ones whose local station is along the line between Woolwich and Dartford (and to a lesser extent, out to Gravesend). Which isn't a huge proportion of SE passengers.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Bleach.

(Sorry, for going OT. Never mind).

Very good

 

[DY444]

All CHX services stopping at LBG also has the advantage that it is less critical for some services to stop at Lewisham for DLR interchange to Canary Wharf etc. as Jubilee at London Bridge is a more viable alternative (assume at least 5 mins less than the other current option of changing at Waterloo East?)

Except that going via LBG instead of Lewisham means those using Oyster get clobbered with the (substantial) premium for going via Zone 1. Can't see that being very popular.

 

[hwl]

It's possible, but I doubt it would make much difference. I'd imagine the proportion of passengers who deliberately wait for a direct train to CHX or CST, as opposed to just getting on the first train and changing if necessary, would be pretty small.

Some of my colleagues do time their journeys for the direct trains...
If they are going to end up changing anyway they might do things differently and be more flexible about which service they catch which might spread loadings out a bit.

Well realistically, the only SE passengers who are going to benefit much from Crossrail are the ones whose local station is along the line between Woolwich and Dartford (and to a lesser extent, out to Gravesend). Which isn't a huge proportion of SE passengers.

The same ones who get a worse service on the Greenwich line for the next few years...

 

[telstarbox]

Well realistically, the only SE passengers who are going to benefit much from Crossrail are the ones whose local station is along the line between Woolwich and Dartford (and to a lesser extent, out to Gravesend). Which isn't a huge proportion of SE passengers.

Not quite - passengers in Lewisham and Greenwich will be able to take the DLR and change to Crossrail at West India Quay/Canary Wharf. This will provide a quicker journey to some areas than current journeys via Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

 

[theageofthetra]

Having to change trains on a cold wet night in a cess pit like Lewisham will for many people ruin a night out in the west end! Getting Tube to Cannon St will be preferable- though I doubt it will remain free after the works finish.

 

[Wolfie]

Having to change trains on a cold wet night in a cess pit like Lewisham will for many people ruin a night out in the west end! Getting Tube to Cannon St will be preferable- though I doubt it will remain free after the works finish.

There is no doubt about it, it won't and indeed nor should it. Why exactly is Lewisham station (I won't comment about the place per se but could ask what cosmopolitan wonder you come from that entitles you to be so derogatory about it) a "cess pit"? It is no better or worse than many small/medium size interchange stations.

 

[theageofthetra]

Someone who lives in SE London & has friends who live in Lewisham & am fully aware of its crime levels. It has no warm waiting area and is totally unsuitable as a late night interchange without major rebuilding or improvement- extea staff or BTP presence would help though.

 

[hwl]

Having to change trains on a cold wet night in a cess pit like Lewisham will for many people ruin a night out in the west end! Getting Tube to Cannon St will be preferable- though I doubt it will remain free after the works finish.

But after the works it would be much more sensible to change at London Bridge which will have a warm waiting area and plenty of BTP and security...

 

[telstarbox]

Someone who lives in SE London & has friends who live in Lewisham & am fully aware of its crime levels. It has no warm waiting area and is totally unsuitable as a late night interchange without major rebuilding or improvement- extea staff or BTP presence would help though.

A bit like the current London Bridge then.

 

[67018]

Someone who lives in SE London & has friends who live in Lewisham & am fully aware of its crime levels. It has no warm waiting area and is totally unsuitable as a late night interchange without major rebuilding or improvement- extea staff or BTP presence would help though.

Actually, the less suitable stations tend to be quiet ones that are poorly lit and have few people around - which certainly does not apply to Lewisham. I'd say chance of being a victim of crime there is not that much different to the risk at London Bridge.

How long is the typical interchange likely to be? If it's longer than 10 minutes, using London Bridge is likely to be preferable anyway (for a quicker change or less draughty wait).

 

[telstarbox]

London Bridge doesn't have any enclosed waiting areas so it's no better than Lewisham. Both stations are on viaducts so they are also exposed when it's cold!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Not quite - passengers in Lewisham and Greenwich will be able to take the DLR and change to Crossrail at West India Quay/Canary Wharf. This will provide a quicker journey to some areas than current journeys via Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

Fair point. And thinking about it, passengers between Woolwich Dockyard and Deptford are also likely to benefit in that their trains will be substantially less crowded due to many passengers from further out having swapped to CrossRail. Ditto for anyone at Blackheath or Lewisham using the trains from Gillingham. (Provided of course, that SouthEastern don't shorten trains or reduce frequencies to match).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

London Bridge doesn't have any enclosed waiting areas so it's no better than Lewisham. Both stations are on viaducts so they are also exposed when it's cold!

Maybe London Bridge will have enclosed waiting areas once the rebuild is complete? If Bald Rick's claims that it'll be the best station in the UK are correct, then I'd certainly hope so