London Bridge reconstruction works

[Antman]

Fair point. And thinking about it, passengers between Woolwich Dockyard and Deptford are also likely to benefit in that their trains will be substantially less crowded due to many passengers from further out having swapped to CrossRail. Ditto for anyone at Blackheath or Lewisham using the trains from Gillingham. (Provided of course, that SouthEastern don't shorten trains or reduce frequencies to match).
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Maybe London Bridge will have enclosed waiting areas once the rebuild is complete? If Bald Rick's claims that it'll be the best station in the UK are correct, then I'd certainly hope so

A lot of people tend to wait on the enclosed footbridge until their train is due in the bad weather

 

[Taunton]

May be part of the reason for keeping the split destinations (i.e. CST/CHX) on some routes for so long was the inability of the old/current London Bridge to handle the transfer volumes.

It's possible, but I doubt it would make much difference

Actually that was exactly the officially stated reason for major changes back in the BR days in the 1960s-70s, the big timetable change in 1967 and the track rearrangement in 1976. Prior to that just about everything stopped at London Bridge, and in peak hours there was a real crush on the platforms. The alterations were aimed at rearranging things so that passengers had a through service split which matched demand, along with some changing further out. The problem was worse in the pm peak, because in the morning passengers just took the next train to final destination, and were cleared in a couple of minutes, whereas in the evening they were waiting longer for their service home.

of course in bad old BR days nobody thought of this wonderful 21st Century solution for those from Greenwich etc, send the whole lot to Cannon Street and non-stop all the Charing Cross services at LB, so you have to find your own way. Ha Ha Ha.

 

[Wolfie]

Actually that was exactly the officially stated reason for major changes back in the BR days in the 1960s-70s, the big timetable change in 1967 and the track rearrangement in 1976. Prior to that just about everything stopped at London Bridge, and in peak hours there was a real crush on the platforms. The alterations were aimed at rearranging things so that passengers had a through service split which matched demand, along with some changing further out. The problem was worse in the pm peak, because in the morning passengers just took the next train to final destination, and were cleared in a couple of minutes, whereas in the evening they were waiting longer for their service home.

of course in bad old BR days nobody thought of this wonderful 21st Century solution for those from Greenwich etc, send the whole lot to Cannon Street and non-stop all the Charing Cross services at LB, so you have to find your own way. Ha Ha Ha.

Being slightly brutal, just because we always used to do something one way is not sufficient justification to say it must always be done that way....

Anyway Cannon Street to Charing Cross isn't that far.

 

[telstarbox]

Fair point. And thinking about it, passengers between Woolwich Dockyard and Deptford are also likely to benefit in that their trains will be substantially less crowded due to many passengers from further out having swapped to CrossRail. Ditto for anyone at Blackheath or Lewisham using the trains from Gillingham. (Provided of course, that SouthEastern don't shorten trains or reduce frequencies to match).

And going even further, Tottenham Court Road Crossrail will be a 12 minute walk from Charing Cross, so some people who walk from Charing Cross to Soho or Covent Garden would switch to TCR. It's going to shake things up!
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Except that going via LBG instead of Lewisham means those using Oyster get clobbered with the (substantial) premium for going via Zone 1. Can't see that being very popular.

I've wondered before whether people who from outer London to Zone 2 hotspots (eg Canary Wharf, Hammersmith, White City for the BBC) buy season tickets to Zone 1 anyway as it's cheaper or more convenient than paying the extra for occasional trips.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe London Bridge will have enclosed waiting areas once the rebuild is complete? If Bald Rick's claims that it'll be the best station in the UK are correct, then I'd certainly hope so

Well the (fully enclosed) concourse will only be the largest in the country.

 

[DY444]

I've wondered before whether people who from outer London to Zone 2 hotspots (eg Canary Wharf, Hammersmith, White City for the BBC) buy season tickets to Zone 1 anyway as it's cheaper or more convenient than paying the extra for occasional trips.

I doubt it. As an example a Zone 2-4 monthly is 99.90, Zone 1-4 monthly is 172.80. Imo anyone with more sense than money would be using PAYG for the odd incursion into Zone 1.

 

[Antman]

Trains to Hayes are diverted to Cannon St in the evening. Ruining a pleasurable evening at the theatre by involving a change of train in Lewisham. This change is permanent and most Hayes line residents are blissfully unaware.

I certainly wasn't aware of that, what is the reason? There is little custom at Cannon Street in the evening, in fact didn't it used to close early evening Mon-Fri as well as all weekend?

 

[telstarbox]

Capacity rather than custom.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well the (fully enclosed) concourse will only be the largest in the country.

Ah. Will this large space include stuff to make the wait comfortable for passengers platform-side (in particular, an adequate number of seats and some free-to-use-for-people-with-tickets toilets)? (And - obviously - shops, but I doubt I need to ask that - there's rarely a shortage of shops at main stations )

 

[FlippyFF]

Well the (fully enclosed) concourse will only be the largest in the country.

Hmm, all that space. How long before Network Rail decide to reduce it by 50% by filling it with retail units?

 

[Bald Rick]

Hmm, all that space. How long before Network Rail decide to reduce it by 50% by filling it with retail units?

It will have the biggest concourse in the country excluding the retail units. They're in addition to the concourse space.

But the bogs won't be free.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It will have the biggest concourse in the country excluding the retail units. They're in addition to the concourse space.

But the bogs won't be free.

London Bridge must be one of the last major stations with free bogs.

Incidentally will the south eastern platforms only be accessible from the new concourse or will they still have the access st the Cannon Street end?

 

[theageofthetra]

St Pancras has two sets of free toilets! Will be glad to see the back of the ones on the SE side on the platforms at LB- like the black hole of Calcutta in there on a Fri night.

 

[ScotGG]

St Pancras has two sets of free toilets! Will be glad to see the back of the ones on the SE side on the platforms at LB- like the black hole of Calcutta in there on a Fri night.

Based on some recent late night experiences people will **** on the train instead. And not in the toilet...

Though quite a few are often busted on networkers and none on 376s so the more drunken, anti social people must think sod getting off and waiting 30 mins plus for another train when on board.

 

[swt_passenger]

Incidentally will the south eastern platforms only be accessible from the new concourse or will they still have the access st the Cannon Street end?

The ramped end access will be removed from the through platforms.

 

[theageofthetra]

If the ramps are being removed what will happen to the access to the footbridge over Tooley St that leads to The Cottons Centre?

 

[Antman]

London Bridge must be one of the last major stations with free bogs.

Incidentally will the south eastern platforms only be accessible from the new concourse or will they still have the access st the Cannon Street end?

There are also free ones on the centre platforms at Waterloo East

 

[swt_passenger]

If the ramps are being removed what will happen to the access to the footbridge over Tooley St that leads to The Cottons Centre?

I expect it might be removed, as it will no longer reach a main route into the NR station It is not clear from the planning drawings though - will it be any use for LU access?

In addition to my earlier post all the through platforms will have emergency fire escape stairs at each end, behind closed doors like on the new platforms at Reading.

 

[HowardGWR]

There are also free ones on the centre platforms at Waterloo East

That's useful to know. Not far to walk over there. Ah, but can you get on without using or losing your ticket (for Southampton, say)?

 

[FlippyFF]

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, there's a Youtube video on Southeastern Thameslink programme website showing London Bridge during the morning rush hour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kY7hDjv3gdM
taken from
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/about-us/latest-news/alternative-travel-and-ticket-arrangements-confirmed-for-services-affected-by-the-thameslink-programme/

 

[DVD]

Biggest problems from January are likely to be crowd control / overcrowding at London Bridge - at least until people start changing their travel patterns. Platforms 4, 5 & 6 will be closed for 18 months. All three platforms are incredibly busy during peak hours and I don't relish the prospect of passengers trying to cram onto platforms 1, 2 & 3. Platforms 1/2 in particular are quite narrow at the top of the passageway ramps with much platform 'furniture' and buildings (toilets, snack bar, platform staff office) which - when the platforms are busy - can impede passenger circulation. I had expected some of this paraphernalia to be removed, but there's no sign of it. Platform 2 is dangerously narrow at certain points. I can envisage crush conditions in the passageways leading to the platforms. I wonder how much preparation is being made to cope with this ?

 

[ComUtoR]

As I understand it (no doubt I will be corrected) The crowding at london bridge will be minimal.

NO trains will be stopping at london bridge for Waterloo east or the Cross. If your at London bridge then your alighting or boarding NOT changing trains. It should reduce the numbers at London Bridge because it is no longer an interchange. You need to decide where to board. Do you walk through the market, Walk along the embankment or Walk past the big giant head. Also removing the Thameslink passengers should also reduce additional passengers.

Interchange and crowding will probably occur at Lewisham because its the last place you can change for Cross/Cannon.

Trains will also run round the reversible (someone will post the "tph etc.") for passengers wanting London Bridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can envisage crush conditions in the passageways leading to the platforms. I wonder how much preparation is being made to cope with this ?

It has certainly been the subject of much preparation.

Firstly, there will be many fewer interchange passengers - the only interchange left will be between Southern services and Cannon St services. With the footbridge connection gone it will, frankly, be quicker for Southern passengers to walk across the river than to get the train.

Secondly, there will be extensive crowd management that can be activated as and when it gets too busy. Same principles as in the Olympics. Extra staff have been employed purely for this purpose.

Thirdly the communications programme in advance will, hopefully, persuade some passengers to make alterations to their journeys. Eg if you are heading for the west side of the City, use a Blackfriars service if that is available.

Re Lewisham - avoid changing trains there if possible. It is a very busy station anyway. Personally I can't understand why anyone would want to get a service to the wrong London termini and then change on to one that is guaranteed to be heaving, when they could just plan to get on the right service in the first place. But I understand it happens!
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Trains will also run round the reversible (someone will post the "tph etc.") for passengers wanting London Bridge.

If you mean a direct CHX - CST service - this will only happen for the last trains of the evening so that the last trains serve CHX, CST and LBG.

 

[user15681]

Trains will also run round the reversible (someone will post the "tph etc.") for passengers wanting London Bridge.

I wasn't going to, but seeing as you expected it...

23:45 London Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells
23:52 London Charing Cross to Dartford (via Sidcup)
00:02 London Charing Cross to Dartford (via Bexleyheath)
00:15 London Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells
00:18 London Charing Cross to Gillingham
00:22 London Charing Cross to Dartford (via Sidcup)
00:48 London Charing Cross to Orpington

All calling at London Charing Cross, London Waterloo East, London Cannon Street, London Bridge and then onwards...

 

[Bald Rick]

I wasn't going to, but seeing as you expected it...

23:45 London Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells
23:52 London Charing Cross to Dartford (via Sidcup)
00:02 London Charing Cross to Dartford (via Bexleyheath)
00:15 London Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells
00:18 London Charing Cross to Gillingham
00:22 London Charing Cross to Dartford (via Sidcup)
00:48 London Charing Cross to Orpington

All calling at London Charing Cross, London Waterloo East, London Cannon Street, London Bridge and then onwards...

I'm looking forward to the surprised / confused looks on any suitably refreshed people who have sat facing forwards on these from CHaring X who then wake up going backwards.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Firstly, there will be many fewer interchange passengers - the only interchange left will be between Southern services and Cannon St services.

And the interchange with the underground!

Personally I can't understand why anyone would want to get a service to the wrong London termini and then change on to one that is guaranteed to be heaving, when they could just plan to get on the right service in the first place. But I understand it happens!

That will be because people get on at stations that have a frequent service to only one of the termini I often get a CST train and change to a CHX train at London Bridge because where I am the CST trains go every 10 minutes, the CHX ones only every half hour. So unless the timing happens to be exactly right... Once January comes, I'll probably try a bit harder to get a CHX train when I want to go there, but the chances are, a lot of the time I'll probably still end up on a CST train, and have to change to the underground at either London Bridge or Cannon St.

Overall though, I think your assessment that the relative lack of interchange opportunities will reduce the crowds at London Bridge somewhat is very reasonable. I suspect any problems may be in the first couple of weeks, when you get lots of people that didn't bother reading the publicity/didn't get round to figuring out a different travel plan, and so end up either at London Bridge or at Waterloo East, trying to figure out how to continue their journeys

 

[ComUtoR]

That will be because people get on at stations that have a frequent service to only one of the termini I often get a CST train and change to a CHX train at London Bridge because where I am the CST trains go every 10 minutes, the CHX ones only every half hour. So unless the timing happens to be exactly right...

Coupled with the fact that a fair amount of train apps and journey planners will send you to an interchange location. With passengers becoming more reliant on apps. Passenger flow may be determined by where planners send passengers.

Overall though, I think your assessment that the relative lack of interchange opportunities will reduce the crowds at London Bridge somewhat is very reasonable.

Kinda have to reiterate. There is NO interchange at London Bridge. NO trains for Waterloo East or Charing Cross or Blackfriars will stop there. You are going to Cannon Street or Walking (or taking the tube)

It's gonna be fun that's for sure

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm looking forward to the surprised / confused looks on any suitably refreshed people who have sat facing forwards on these from CHaring X who then wake up going backwards.

They could draft in some experienced travellers to help, for example some of those who have learned to cope with XC via Reading and Birmingham during the same journey...

 

[Minstral25]

I think that London Bridge might actually lighten slightly than be overcrowded. However a different problem at East Croydon where changing trains is going to become more common as trains are cut or rerouted from South of East Croydon.

 

[Philip C]

I wasn't going to, but seeing as you expected it...

23:45 London Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells
23:52 .................

All calling at London Charing Cross, London Waterloo East, London Cannon Street, London Bridge and then onwards...

The 2345 train is, of course, a through service to Hastings scheduled to arrive there at 0144 (0141 on Sunday mornings). On regular occasions, such as evenings next week, this service terminates at Tunbridge Wells with a faster and a slower bus service operating on to the coast. The practical extremity of this operation is for passengers to West St Leonards whose bus is scheduled to arrive at 0238, from there any local passengers can expect to reach Hastings at 0252. The whole operation will now, presumably, run a further fifteen minutes later!

In many years travelling the Hastings line I have yet to travel on the very late services and have no intention of reporting on loadings to this, or any other, forum!