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ECML Disruption - Saturday 27th December

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swt_passenger

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I doubt that a planned service turning back at Finsbury Park (as has been done in the past) would look very much different to the hastily-arranged contingency anyway.

I think the whole issue hinges on the (somewhat predictable) Saturday morning northbound passenger flow.

When they do what is fundamentally the same operating routine over a normal weekend, the mad rush away from London has already happened on the Friday evening, and on Sunday if trains were terminating at Finsbury Park for onward connections the main southbound flow of passengers will have presumably been spread over the whole afternoon and evening.

Isn't the basic question (if the above is a fair summary) simply why the huge number of Saturday morning northbound passengers wasn't foreseen? Doesn't this same scenario (in terms of people's travel intentions - not the engineering work itself) come round every 6 or 7 years - so do they keep records?
 
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Senex

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Isn't the basic question (if the above is a fair summary) simply why the huge number of Saturday morning northbound passengers wasn't foreseen?

It seems a fair bet that most of the people travelling on a holiday Saturday would be using advance purchase tickets, many of which are not only restricted to a particular train but also carry a seat reservation with them. This should surely have provided East Coast Trains with a pretty good guide as to the numbers likely to be travelling.
 

Tomnick

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Yes, seems a fair comment to me! I suppose the key difference between the planned service and the emergency timetable is that, even though the planned capacity out of London was similar, Kings Cross is in a far better position to handle large crowds and to segregate opposing passenger flows. Hopefully the lack of any apparent preparation or mitigation at Finsbury Park will be investigated in more detail along with the other shortcomings, and hopefully questions will be asked of the two most affected TOCs' managers rather than continuing to pile all the pressure on Network Rail.
 

swt_passenger

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It seems a fair bet that most of the people travelling on a holiday Saturday would be using advance purchase tickets...

Genuine question - Is there evidence that that is normally the case, or is that just an opinion based on what you do yourself?
 

bramling

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I think that'd have been even more badly received by the majority of the public - and the ever-present media! At least running as far as Peterborough (perhaps a limited service to minimise the reliance on London crews) would allow them to take their chance on a suburban train onwards. Perhaps things would have been easoer at Finsbury Park with a slightly more frequent service of suburban-layout EMUs. What was the situation with access to Hornsey depot though - was it actually blocked by a possession, and was this planned?

I agree it probably would have been badly received, but tough, at least it wouldn't have caused the Finsbury Park chaos, and regular users of Finsbury Park wouldn't have turned up to find the station in meltdown due to East Coast passengers blocking up the station with their cases and inability to work out what to do turning up at an unfamiliar location.

I definitely think it would have helped if EMUs had been arriving rather than East Coast trains, apart from anything else this would allowed reversing via Canonbury, which I believe isn't an option for East Coast. The only issue is that Canonbury is essentially a single-track reversing location, and unless each train was double-ended then the reversing capability would be fairly low. In the circumstances I suppose there wouldn't have been the time to arrange 12-car EMUs in an emergency timetable. But, in that case, since the railway couldn't provide a workable East Coast service to London, the service should have been totally suspended.

From what I gather there was a planned block at Hornsey, no idea if this also overran. I don't think this should have caused that much shortage of stock on the GN side though, as most of the outer suburban stock tends to stable at the country ends overnight (Letchworth, Peterborough, Cambridge and Kings Lynn), with Hornsey tending to be filled with class 313s. I've no idea if this held true over Christmas however, so perhaps this was an issue.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I think the whole issue hinges on the (somewhat predictable) Saturday morning northbound passenger flow.
Isn't the basic question (if the above is a fair summary) simply why the huge number of Saturday morning northbound passengers wasn't foreseen? Doesn't this same scenario (in terms of people's travel intentions - not the engineering work itself) come round every 6 or 7 years - so do they keep records?

This reminds me of a quotation from a letter by W.S.Gilbert to the LNWR about delays to Saturday trains at Harrow & Wealdstone around 1890:
"Dear Sir: Saturdays, despite recurring at regular and easily predictable intervals, always seem to take your company by surprise..."
 
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PHILIPE

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Christmas/New Year travelling are difficult to estimate and not consistent year to year due to the change in days of the week and their relationships to the weekend.
Has anybody heard or seen anything from ECML yet apologising for their failures in the debacle, Finsbury Park disorganistation at the least.
 

bramling

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Christmas/New Year travelling are difficult to estimate and not consistent year to year due to the change in days of the week and their relationships to the weekend.
Has anybody heard or seen anything from ECML yet apologising for their failures in the debacle, Finsbury Park disorganistation at the least.

Have to say this Christmas has been a complete pain in the backside, which I think is partly due to the way the days have fallen. Everything seems to have been manic seemingly for as long as can be remembered. Usually in London the period between Christmas and New Year is actually comparatively subdued. This year *everywhere* seems to be packed out *all the time*, it's starting to become wearing. I shall certainly be glad when everything is back to normal next week.

The one consolation is that I've been working through most of the period, so haven't 'lost' anything as such. Plenty of days off in the coming weeks to make up!
 

swt_passenger

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Christmas/New Year travelling are difficult to estimate and not consistent year to year due to the change in days of the week and their relationships to the weekend.

That's really why I included the point about the 6 or 7 year cycle between the same 'busy travel days' of the period, I'm really suggesting that although it will be different year on year, if records are kept it should be similar to the last time Christmas Day was a Thursday. Of course you'd need to superimpose other factors such as national weather...
 
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infobleep

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This reminds me of a quotation from a letter by W.S.Gilbert to the LNWR about delays to Saturday trains at Harrow & Wealdstone around 1890:
London Midland seem to take a leaf out of LNWR book. If not Saturdays, definitely week days. Lol.
 

Class 170101

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In answer to a question above unless things have changed I understood Class 365s weren't cleared to use Canonbury Chord, only Class 317s and unfortunately GTR don't have many of these.

I seem to recall a block in the same area some years back where NX (now AGA) Class 317s were borrowed to cover a shortfall but that costs money and doubtless creates paperwork.
 

45669

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I can't let that one pass without comment. None of us know why people were travelling. I'm sure some had spent Christmas with friends/families and were back at work on Sunday (or even late Saturday). Tourists?

Nor do we know how many people will have been put off rail travel for good by the experience.

My daughter was caught up in the melee at Finsbury Park; she was going to meet up with some old school friends for lunch in Huntingdon but gave up and went back home when it became clear that she wasn't going anywhere!

Needless to say she vented her anger on Facebook as they all do these days, and has told all and sundry that she'll go by car next time.

Is she just one isolated frustrated (ex) rail traveller? I doubt it.
 

Senex

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Genuine question - Is there evidence that that is normally the case, or is that just an opinion based on what you do yourself?

I tend to be a spur-of-the-moment traveller and so just the sort of person for whom advance purchase isn't much good. But from what I've read about the British fares structure I've certainly gained a strong impression that most of those travelling long distance on Saturdays and Sundays (and we're talking not just about any old Saturday but one in the middle of what is now possibly the most general extended holiday period of the year) are on advance purchase cheap fares. The business travellers aren't travelling.
 

cjmillsnun

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Really?
Where were they then?
I used to be a bus driver and I was either at work or at home (and free to do what I want), never was I 'on call' in the sense the fuhrer is wanting to implement!


B1B-
£25 a week to be on call <sniggers>, you can foxtrot oscar mate!
I am just glad you are not my Manager!

Oh if I am 'on call' is that over and above my base roster?
Because if it is and I am called in then you can cover one of my other shifts to get me back down to my agreed weekly hours (if the 'on call' day is after my rostered hours then I will be having one of those days off 'just in case'), or are you saying it is (effectively) compulsory overtime and we are expected to be available at the drop of a hat!
I am all for being flexible but my time is my time, and that isnt going to change for a poxy extra £25 a week!

£25 a week plus overtime if you are called out.

It should be that on call is a voluntary thing though, not compulsory. However that in many cases is not so...
 
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Tomnick

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£25 a week plus overtime if you are called out.

It should be that on call is a voluntary thing though, not compulsory. However that in many cases is not so...
Not for me thanks, not for £25. I'd much rather be asked whether I'm available to come in rather than committed to it. That said, on-call arrangements aren't really appropriate for the staff on the front line.
 

NightatLaira

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Apologies if this question has already been addressed in earlier posts, but which southbound service on 27th December was most heavily delayed?
 

racyrich

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Have to say this Christmas has been a complete pain in the backside, which I think is partly due to the way the days have fallen. Everything seems to have been manic seemingly for as long as can be remembered. Usually in London the period between Christmas and New Year is actually comparatively subdued. This year *everywhere* seems to be packed out *all the time*, it's starting to become wearing. I shall certainly be glad when everything is back to normal next week.

The one consolation is that I've been working through most of the period, so haven't 'lost' anything as such. Plenty of days off in the coming weeks to make up!

Really? On my line - c2c - the full peak service trains have been half-empty, as has my office and the pubs. It's been great! Dreading Monday.
 

455driver

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£25 a week plus overtime if you are called out.

It should be that on call is a voluntary thing though, not compulsory. However that in many cases is not so...

You can put a couple of noughts on the end of that £25 and then we can discuss it!

Just because others have enjoyed a race to the bottom why should we?
 
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45107

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You can put a couple of noughts on the end of that £25 and then we can discus it!

Just because other companies have enjoyed a race to the bottom why should we?

Remove the word 'companies' from that (unfortunately).
 

Tomnick

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Why must anyone with an interest in defending their own pay and conditions be associated with the RMT leadership? If folk put as much effort into fighting their own corner rather than hitting out (no doubt with a large dash of jealousy) at others who have staved off the race to the bottom, I think we'd all be in a much better position.
 

dcsprior

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Why must anyone with an interest in defending their own pay and conditions be associated with the RMT leadership? If folk put as much effort into fighting their own corner rather than hitting out (no doubt with a large dash of jealousy) at others who have staved off the race to the bottom, I think we'd all be in a much better position.
Quite. Especially when what is being proposed by some (that people should be on call in exchange for a standby payment of only £25/week) is best described as taking the mickey.
 

GB

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Are you planning on being the next leader of the RMT ?

Why?, because he values his time off and terms of employment and won't work for peanuts?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why must anyone with an interest in defending their own pay and conditions be associated with the RMT leadership? If folk put as much effort into fighting their own corner rather than hitting out (no doubt with a large dash of jealousy) at others who have staved off the race to the bottom, I think we'd all be in a much better position.

Very well said!
 

Robertj21a

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Why must anyone with an interest in defending their own pay and conditions be associated with the RMT leadership? If folk put as much effort into fighting their own corner rather than hitting out (no doubt with a large dash of jealousy) at others who have staved off the race to the bottom, I think we'd all be in a much better position.

No idea why 'jealousy' seems to always be brought into this type of discussion. I certainly have no need to be jealous, envious, or anything/anybody else, but I do still appreciate an opportunity for free speech - or is that something else that others don't like when it's not what they want to hear ?

I had *assumed* that the ridiculous figures being quoted (£2,500 per week to be on-call) were just in jest, but I do wonder at times.
 

ExRes

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No idea why 'jealousy' seems to always be brought into this type of discussion. I certainly have no need to be jealous, envious, or anything/anybody else, but I do still appreciate an opportunity for free speech - or is that something else that others don't like when it's not what they want to hear ?

I had *assumed* that the ridiculous figures being quoted (£2,500 per week to be on-call) were just in jest, but I do wonder at times.

I have to admit that while I'm not privy to the inner workings of the mind of 455driver, I rather think his 'couple of noughts' is related to the likelihood of on-call happening rather than an actual suggestion at financial recompense, I stand to be corrected of course, just as I stand to be corrected on my belief that 455driver would be more likely to become leader of ASLEF than RMT
 

Tomnick

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Whilst a figure of £2500/wk is clearly ridiculous, I think it adequately reflects the desire (or lack thereof) of the majority of front-line shiftworkers to undertake on-call duties! Indeed, they're not at all appropriate for such roles - is there any other industry where staff are expected to be on call in addition to a shift pattern meaning that cover should be available at all times anyway? On call staff on the railway are usually in the management or more senior technical grades, not normally working out of office hours but with an on-call presence just in case something needs escalating past the first level of response (the shiftworkers).

I'm glad that jealousy doesn't form the basis of your comments - it never makes for a healthy discussion - the latter, for me at least, always being welcome. It's always good to understand how others see it from the outside.
 

infobleep

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I take it Network Rail staff and their sub contractors do not work shift patterns and are on call?

Do the fire brigade work shift patterns and be on call?

I'm not saying drivers should or should not be on call. Just thinking of possible examples where other people might be.
 

Tomnick

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Network Rail front-line and first response staff work shifts - signalmen, MOMs, fault teams and so on. It won't necessarily be 24/7 at each location, but there'll always be arrangements (cover from another depot, for example) to ensure that the staffing level is - in theory - sufficient at all times. It'd be nigh on impossible to provide any meaningful amount of on-call cover within these grades anyway, without breaking the requirements for adequate rest before a rostered turn. The on-call staff are the managers and senior technical staff who might be called out to a serious operating incident or a complicated fault that needs a higher-level response than the MOM or the fault team.
 
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