Eurostar e320 / Class 374 "Velaro"

[hulabaloo]

I'm going to miss that 373 whoop when they all go

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Any pictures of them being scrapped?

Doubtfull that they'll be any, all the TGV design trains whenever they get scrapped seem to get scrapped in a sealed tunnel so that photos can't be taken

 

[Peter Sarf]

I was going past Temple Mills depot last week, and they had two of the nice new 374 sets there. And I happened to end up counting, each set (of two units) has eight pantographs. Now, I know it's meant to be able to split into two trains per Channel Tunnel regulations, but why does it need so many?

I have seen three there earlier in May (2015). There are always two 374s there in the late morning but for a change I went past in the evening (now its daylight) and saw three (well six as they are in pairs). Last winter I once went past in the evening and I saw three pairs but could not id them as it was dark. I try to check every few weeks late morning.

On 4.5.2015 at 18:33 I saw three pairs 374007+374008, 374011+374012 and 374015+374016. When I see two pairs its always two pairs out of those three pairs (yawn). They have moved about, swapping places, so they do move. Given I only see two pairs late morning one must go out for a trip during the middle of the day ?.

I have never seen any of the others. I have never seen one move so it could all be done by an 08 shunter !..

I have some times seen two of the eight pantographs raised, Usually all pantographs are down.

 

[SprinterMan]

Scrapping Eurostars while Pacer still abound is truly a depressing prospect

 

[D365]

Wouldn't one just love, to see a Pacerstar..!

 

[Mikey C]

The 373s might be handy to run on HS2, seeing that they are built to UK loading gauge, and hence can run on Classic lines as well?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm going to miss that 373 whoop when they all go

Don't think I will. The ICE (Velaro) is such a superior train to the TGV (E*) that I won't miss them at all, not to mention the mucky state the interiors have been allowed to get into.

 

[LexyBoy]

The 373s might be handy to run on HS2, seeing that they are built to UK loading gauge, and hence can run on Classic lines as well?

They will be going on 40 years old when HS2 opens!

Unless things go really pear shaped and HS2 is bought up by a preservation society, it's not going to happen. In any case, the 373s wouldn't meet the spec of the CC sets - too long, acceleration too poor...

 

[jopsuk]

I can't see anyone else wanting a small fleet of complicated, 400m long, British loading gauge high speed trains that have been worked hard for over 20 years.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't see anyone else wanting a small fleet of complicated, 400m long, British loading gauge high speed trains that have been worked hard for over 20 years.

Yes but as long as enthusiasts like them they are never allowed to scrapped and must be held onto no matter how ludicrous the scheme!

 

[edwin_m]

Yes but as long as enthusiasts like them they are never allowed to scrapped and must be held onto no matter how ludicrous the scheme!

Has anyone suggested matching 442 trailers with 373 power cars yet? Or the other way round?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Has anyone suggested matching 442 trailers with 373 power cars yet? Or the other way round?

What about matching 442 trailers to pacers

I can't see anyone else wanting a small fleet of complicated, 400m long, British loading gauge high speed trains that have been worked hard for over 20 years.

By the time that HS2 opens the 373s will probably be knackered and life expired

 

[NightStar]

It's hard for me to believe the 373 will be almost 40 soon. I was about 5 years old when the tunnel and the 373 went into service. I am now 26. Where the heck does the time go? I guess when you are having fun, Time does not matter as much. LOL!

Anyway, If my favorite non starter service the Nightstar had interred service, I wonder what would be replacing the Mark 4 cars? Double decker TGV style trains maybe?

Robert

 

[edwin_m]

What about matching 442 trailers to pacers

Off-topic for a discussion on Eurostar!

 

[Chris125]

It's hard for me to believe the 373 will be almost 40 soon. I was about 5 years old when the tunnel and the 373 went into service. I am now 26

You should find it hard to believe, they are barely halfway to 40...

 

[Mikey C]

They will be going on 40 years old when HS2 opens!

Unless things go really pear shaped and HS2 is bought up by a preservation society, it's not going to happen. In any case, the 373s wouldn't meet the spec of the CC sets - too long, acceleration too poor...

Well when the 1st phase of HS2 to Birmingham opens in 2026 they'll only be just over 30 years old, and could be shortened as most of the equipment is in the power cars?
It's just a thought, as in this first phase I presume that the trains will continue from HS2 onto classic lines, and hence the UK gauge 373s would be useful as a short term solution until the line reaches Manchester

 

[Haydn1971]

Seriously ? Using a train that will be over 30 years old on HS2 ? Looking around for a wall to bang my head against ! LOL

 

[sprinterguy]

Well when the 1st phase of HS2 to Birmingham opens in 2026 they'll only be just over 30 years old, and could be shortened as most of the equipment is in the power cars?
It's just a thought, as in this first phase I presume that the trains will continue from HS2 onto classic lines, and hence the UK gauge 373s would be useful as a short term solution until the line reaches Manchester

I suppose that at a push, you could use shortened 373s for the fifteen 260 metre classic compatible trainsets that HS2 are proposing, but I still can't see why you'd want to. They won't be able to acheive the proposed service speed of HS2 and they'd have a different (probably poorer) acceleration curve to the rest of the HS2 fleet, so you're introducing differential paths into what is supposed to be a standardised set to maximise capacity. Far better to have a brand new fleet of homogenous trains (with variation between "captive" and "classic compatible" sets I should imagine but quite probably developed on the same design platform) maintained by the manufacturer at a purpose built facility designed specifically for them, rather than attempting to shoehorn thirty year old trains into the specification.

Thirty years is quite a respectable lifespan for a very high speed train such as the Eurostar, so I really can't see the need to try and eke out another ten years or more from them on HS2.

 

[jopsuk]

With a class 373, you lose about 50m of length immediately to not just the power cars, but the "powered intermediate" cars that are the ends of the passenger rakes. Then the carriages are quite short, meaning more capacity lost due to connections.

They're also ferociously complex. Whilst they've had the pick up shoes removed, they've essentially still (as far as I know) got all the equipment to run from 25kV AC, 3000V DC, 1500V DC and 750V DC. For signalling, they're compatible with British AWS and TPWS, French TVM & KVB and Belgian TBL- for HS2 they'd need to be fitted with ETCS Level 2.

 

[ainsworth74]

Seriously ? Using a train that will be over 30 years old on HS2 ? Looking around for a wall to bang my head against ! LOL

I refer the honourable member for Sheffield to my previous response on this very thread

 

[SpacePhoenix]

With a class 373, you lose about 50m of length immediately to not just the power cars, but the "powered intermediate" cars that are the ends of the passenger rakes. Then the carriages are quite short, meaning more capacity lost due to connections.

They're also ferociously complex. Whilst they've had the pick up shoes removed, they've essentially still (as far as I know) got all the equipment to run from 25kV AC, 3000V DC, 1500V DC and 750V DC. For signalling, they're compatible with British AWS and TPWS, French TVM & KVB and Belgian TBL- for HS2 they'd need to be fitted with ETCS Level 2.

For the short section of track from the buffer stops at St Pancras to the first TVM marker, is that TVM or AWS/TPWS? If it's AWS/TPWS, is that the only AWS/TPWS running that Eurostars do in service or out of service?

 

[RichmondCommu]

It's hard for me to believe the 373 will be almost 40 soon. I was about 5 years old when the tunnel and the 373 went into service. I am now 26. Where the heck does the time go? I guess when you are having fun, Time does not matter as much. LOL!

Anyway, If my favorite non starter service the Nightstar had interred service, I wonder what would be replacing the Mark 4 cars? Double decker TGV style trains maybe?

Robert

Just a quick question, what school did you go to?

 

[jon0844]

I too noticed this today when passing Temple Mills. Also struck me as ridiculous that these trains are lying idle!

If Abellio ran Eurostar, some people would already be suggesting they're in need of replacement soon.

 

[pmjdavies]

The 373 trailer cars can never be used without a 373 power car. The on board control system is an integrated computer network with trailer ID's embedded in the PLC software. Also all auxiliaries are controlled from the 'armoire de cabine' located behind the driver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Re number of pantographs: Channel Tunnel Safety Regulations did not allow inter-car 25kV jumpers when Class 373 was specified. Assuming that to still be the case, distributed traction (as Class 374) will need a pantograph for each transformer.

 

[dave12435]

Is it just me or does it seem to make sense that they are going to be coming out of service and AGA has recently been quoted as saying they want to eventually replace the Mark 3 coaches and 90s. ( even though they are going to be refurbed just to a slightly limited scope compared to some MK3 refurbs)
Those 373s could be shortened and cascaded with modifications etc far cheaper than a brand new train and they are already correct loading gauge for geml, as its wide enough for the larger containers

 

[cjmillsnun]

For the short section of track from the buffer stops at St Pancras to the first TVM marker, is that TVM or AWS/TPWS? If it's AWS/TPWS, is that the only AWS/TPWS running that Eurostars do in service or out of service?

It's actually KVB.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's hard for me to believe the 373 will be almost 40 soon. I was about 5 years old when the tunnel and the 373 went into service. I am now 26. Where the heck does the time go? I guess when you are having fun, Time does not matter as much. LOL!

Anyway, If my favorite non starter service the Nightstar had interred service, I wonder what would be replacing the Mark 4 cars? Double decker TGV style trains maybe?

Robert

Ummm, if the nightstar had entered service, it would've been cancelled quickly as it would be seriously loss making.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 373 trailer cars can never be used without a 373 power car. The on board control system is an integrated computer network with trailer ID's embedded in the PLC software. Also all auxiliaries are controlled from the 'armoire de cabine' located behind the driver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Re number of pantographs: Channel Tunnel Safety Regulations did not allow inter-car 25kV jumpers when Class 373 was specified. Assuming that to still be the case, distributed traction (as Class 374) will need a pantograph for each transformer.

Ahh PLCs. The important bit is P (Programmable). Essentially anything can be made to work with it, as long as it talks using the same protocols and language. That said, with the age of the technology, it would be cheaper to re-wire the trailer cars!

 

[DownSouth]

Re number of pantographs: Channel Tunnel Safety Regulations did not allow inter-car 25kV jumpers when Class 373 was specified. Assuming that to still be the case, distributed traction (as Class 374) will need a pantograph for each transformer.

You would want one for each transformer anyway, for redundancy and resilience.

 

[jopsuk]

For the short section of track from the buffer stops at St Pancras to the first TVM marker, is that TVM or AWS/TPWS? If it's AWS/TPWS, is that the only AWS/TPWS running that Eurostars do in service or out of service?

As said, St Pancras is KVB. Ashford however is AWS/TPWS

Is it just me or does it seem to make sense that they are going to be coming out of service and AGA has recently been quoted as saying they want to eventually replace the Mark 3 coaches and 90s. ( even though they are going to be refurbed just to a slightly limited scope compared to some MK3 refurbs)
Those 373s could be shortened and cascaded with modifications etc far cheaper than a brand new train and they are already correct loading gauge for geml, as its wide enough for the larger containers

They would like trains with higher, not lower, capacity. Assuming that the 245 of a 90+9 mark 3+DVT is the maximum length, you could have a formation with two power cars, two "powered intermediates" and 8 normal intermediates. Those intermediates have a standard class capacity of 56, the powered ones 48. The centre cars have a 1st capacity of 25, other ones take 39 1st. So maybe those centre cars (where the disabled loos are) could take 36 standard seats, whilst a powered car could take 33 1st. If we put 1st at one end, and have three carriages, then we're looking at 111 first, 344 standard. With no catering. So you'd reduce capacity slow down boarding and alighting and make the service even worse.

 

[dave12435]

As said, St Pancras is KVB. Ashford however is AWS/TPWS




They would like trains with higher, not lower, capacity. Assuming that the 245 of a 90+9 mark 3+DVT is the maximum length, you could have a formation with two power cars, two "powered intermediates" and 8 normal intermediates. Those intermediates have a standard class capacity of 56, the powered ones 48. The centre cars have a 1st capacity of 25, other ones take 39 1st. So maybe those centre cars (where the disabled loos are) could take 36 standard seats, whilst a powered car could take 33 1st. If we put 1st at one end, and have three carriages, then we're looking at 111 first, 344 standard. With no catering. So you'd reduce capacity slow down boarding and alighting and make the service even worse.

Wouldn't put it past AGA though

 

[hulabaloo]

It sounds to me that running and maintaining a 373 for domestic use would be not be cost-effective at all.