The State Of Rail Travel In Lincolnshire

[sheff'd victoria]

Picture of Alex Hynes MD of Northern Rail and his visit to the Brigg Line and Brigg Station on the 17/03/2015

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[Xenophon PCDGS]

Picture of Alex Hynes MD of Northern Rail and his visit to the Brigg Line and Brigg Station on the 17/03/2015

[URL="https://www.flickr.com/photos/123909447@N05/16664894858/in/set-72157644775119495 [/URL][/QUOTE]

I don't know why, but clicking the link in your posting brings up a site query.

 

[Donny Dave]

Try https://www.flickr.com/photos/123909447@N05/16664894858/in/set-72157644775119495 instead.

 

[yorksrob]

Good to see the Brigg line on the brink of a renaissance.

Would like to see something similar for Knottingley - Goole.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Would like to see something similar for Knottingley - Goole.

Same here, as it would be ideal for someone to go direct to Goole and change for Bridlington.

 

[Grimsby town]

I see that the A180 - A18 link road near Immingham has started construction
Link to the proposed route here http://i.thisis.co.uk/275583/binaries/stallingborough-bypass.jpg

This could be a great place for a parkway station. Half hourly bus to Immingham, link to the A18 for the areas south of Grimsby, usable as a park and ride for Cleethorpes in the summer and not far from the important business areas like Immingham Dock, Europarc, Killingholme Refineries and the Able Marine Park once it is built.

Habrough is largely inadequate to serve Immingham with its lack of public transport and poor road connections to other places. It could be served by the Barton service with all trains stopping at the new station.

 

[railnerd]

Hi.

Slightly off topic, but Ive been informed by a fairly reliable source, that the Brigg line (Wrawby Jn - Gainsborough Trent Jn) signal boxes have been given a 2 year reprieve. They were due to close Christmas 2015 / New year 2016.

They will now go in 2017.

Back to Lincolnshire trains, I very much doubt that we will see an improvement in passenger services down the joint line. After all, now that freight trains use the route, they dont want to clog it up with passenger trains do they? Thats why the freight was taken off the ECML, or some of it!

There is a freight train booked to pass Spalding in the evening when a passenger train sits at the station for an hours break. If the freight train runs 15 mins late, it will have to sit and wait just north of Spalding for an hour. There is no bay platform at Spalding and the crossovers either end of the station face the wrong way.
A solution would be to put a bay platform at the station. Just big enough for a 156 / 158 unit, thus it would keep the running lines free.

 

[edwin_m]

I think an extension of the operating hours of the Joint line service is possible in the next East Midlands franchise, now that there would be no need to staff a large number of boxes for the extra shift.

 

[Boothby97]

I see that the A180 - A18 link road near Immingham has started construction
Link to the proposed route here http://i.thisis.co.uk/275583/binaries/stallingborough-bypass.jpg

This could be a great place for a parkway station. Half hourly bus to Immingham, link to the A18 for the areas south of Grimsby, usable as a park and ride for Cleethorpes in the summer and not far from the important business areas like Immingham Dock, Europarc, Killingholme Refineries and the Able Marine Park once it is built.

Habrough is largely inadequate to serve Immingham with its lack of public transport and poor road connections to other places. It could be served by the Barton service with all trains stopping at the new station.

The best solution would be to provide a better link between Immingham and Habrough, by increasing the frequency of the bus service that links the two. Currently this is three buses a day (Monday-Saturday) that link the two with East Halton and Killingholme, with the buses continuing the Grimsby as a 5 http://www.travelineeastmidlands.co...LPxx_spTr=1&itdLPxx_operatorCodeForTTB=475SIL
There are further peak time extras on the 5 that link Grimsby, Immingham, Killingholme and Habrough.

 

[ultrabox]

Hi.

Slightly off topic, but Ive been informed by a fairly reliable source, that the Brigg line (Wrawby Jn - Gainsborough Trent Jn) signal boxes have been given a 2 year reprieve. They were due to close Christmas 2015 / New year 2016.

They will now go in 2017.

Back to Lincolnshire trains, I very much doubt that we will see an improvement in passenger services down the joint line. After all, now that freight trains use the route, they dont want to clog it up with passenger trains do they? Thats why the freight was taken off the ECML, or some of it!

There is a freight train booked to pass Spalding in the evening when a passenger train sits at the station for an hours break. If the freight train runs 15 mins late, it will have to sit and wait just north of Spalding for an hour. There is no bay platform at Spalding and the crossovers either end of the station face the wrong way.
A solution would be to put a bay platform at the station. Just big enough for a 156 / 158 unit, thus it would keep the running lines free.

Railnerd, are EMT drivers allowed to use Spalding sidings to the north of the station for PNB.

Regarding Edwin's comment, the line is open continuously now.

 

[Tomnick]

Hi.

Slightly off topic, but Ive been informed by a fairly reliable source, that the Brigg line (Wrawby Jn - Gainsborough Trent Jn) signal boxes have been given a 2 year reprieve. They were due to close Christmas 2015 / New year 2016.

They will now go in 2017.

Back to Lincolnshire trains, I very much doubt that we will see an improvement in passenger services down the joint line. After all, now that freight trains use the route, they dont want to clog it up with passenger trains do they? Thats why the freight was taken off the ECML, or some of it!

There is a freight train booked to pass Spalding in the evening when a passenger train sits at the station for an hours break. If the freight train runs 15 mins late, it will have to sit and wait just north of Spalding for an hour. There is no bay platform at Spalding and the crossovers either end of the station face the wrong way.
A solution would be to put a bay platform at the station. Just big enough for a 156 / 158 unit, thus it would keep the running lines free.

If the service north of Spalding continued past late afternoon, though (is that what's meant by an extension to opening hours?), the unit working the evening shuttles wouldn't need to sit in the platform for an hour - rather than having one unit and crew isolated from the rest of the network, the service could continue to work to and from Lincoln.

Incidentally, I don't know exactly where they take their PNB at Spalding (on the station, presumably?), but the time taken to shunt to the sidings, walking time back to the messroom, the PNB itself and then the same in reverse could be pushing it a bit.

 

[berneyarms]

It will be nice to see the running times updated to synchronise with the reality on the ground between Doncaster, Lincoln, Spalding and Peterborough in the May timetable.

Trains are running ahead of schedule and just sitting in stations until their scheduled departure times.

 

[railnerd]

Hi.

Yes, the EMT trains can go into the sidings, but not with passengers onboard!

Also, as someone pointed out, the drivers rest area is at the station. Im sure the drivers dont wanna walk from the sidings along an unlit and probably dangerous area. Also trackside with no walking route!

 

[Failed Unit]

I think an extension of the operating hours of the Joint line service is possible in the next East Midlands franchise, now that there would be no need to staff a large number of boxes for the extra shift.

It would be a pity to wait until the next franchise. I hope the will is available to try and take advantage of this in December. (Joined up thinking would be May but that isn't going to happen)

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If the service north of Spalding continued past late afternoon, though (is that what's meant by an extension to opening hours?), the unit working the evening shuttles wouldn't need to sit in the platform for an hour - rather than having one unit and crew isolated from the rest of the network, the service could continue to work to and from Lincoln.

I'd love to see the Spalding Line being electrified (so from Peterborough to Lincoln) and the line between Spalding and Boston rebuilt and reopened so that you could have a Skegness to London via Spalding service which I'd imagine would be well used.

The Doncaster to Lincoln line should also be electrified so that you could see a Doncaster to Peterborough via Lincoln service which would see the service sped up and it would remove that late evening shuttle between Peterborough and Spalding which would be replaced with a proper through service to Lincoln.

 

[edwin_m]

it would remove that late evening shuttle between Peterborough and Spalding which would be replaced with a proper through service to Lincoln.

That's what I think will happen in the new franchise, but under diesel power, now that the whole route is open in the evenings.

However it certainly wouldn't in itself make a case for electrification. Rail journeys between the three biggest centres of Doncaster, Lincoln and Peterborough are almost always best done via the ECML, so the local service has to survive on the custom from Spalding, Sleaford, Gainsborough and some even smaller places.

If electric freight catches on in a big way then the Joint line might be electrified, but it would be a lower priority than Felixstowe-Nuneaton.

 

[High Dyke]

Hi.

Yes, the EMT trains can go into the sidings, but not with passengers onboard!

Also, as someone pointed out, the drivers rest area is at the station. Im sure the drivers dont wanna walk from the sidings along an unlit and probably dangerous area. Also trackside with no walking route!

Yep...it had to the other day when one conked out there...

There was an issue a few weeks ago with leaving the 'evening shuttle' in platform 1 whilst the crew had their PNB. The signaller at Lincoln forgot about a diverted EC service. That said the EMT service can only be berthed in P1 due to the track configuration; however as someone pointed out they now have the ability to run the service along the whole route to/from Lincoln. And i concur about the timings needing revising to account for the resignalling / track upgrade etc...

 

[railnerd]

Hi.

Yeah, I was at the station the other day when, as you say, that train 'conked out'!

That 'failed' train, as i think they prefer to call it, held up a freight train right behind it for about 45 mins. Now, if the passenger train had failed in platform 2, then up trains can continue as normal. Also down trains can cross over at the southern points and carry along the bi-directional part of the station and cross over again at the northern end points.

Problem is now, seeing as most passenger trains go into platform one to alight people, they could do with reverse points both ends!

How far do you go tho?

 

[DeeGee]

Same old news again.

I'm not utterly convinced for the need for direct trains to London. It's more important that we keep our direct trains to Manchester Airport and can connect easily to London.

I'd rather see a clockface hourly service to and from Newark North Gate running late into the evening and on Sundays to connect across the platform, maybe the other half hour to the service to Manchester. That'd give us almost a turn up and go service to London.

Or maybe that's just me.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Me too. Odd how these MPs want London services isn't it?
However I'd rather have 2 trains each way per day via Brigg & Gainsborough Central.
It's a silly situation that these stations are only served on Saturdays.

Manchester services weren't maintained, if you leave Grimsby around 4pm you have to change at Doncaster. Same if you leave Sheffield for Grimsby at around 5pm.

Why does New Clee have no additional request stops despite lighting being installed? I think EMT should stop at Barton line stationsvto make an hourly service. That would improve usage.

 

[DeeGee]

Manchester services weren't maintained, if you leave Grimsby around 4pm you have to change at Doncaster. Same if you leave Sheffield for Grimsby at around 5pm.

I hadn't noticed that. How strange. That's the one I usually get! Obviously haven't recently.

 

[berneyarms]

Manchester services weren't maintained, if you leave Grimsby around 4pm you have to change at Doncaster. Same if you leave Sheffield for Grimsby at around 5pm.

Was that not to keep the longer train on the section of peak demand during the evening peak period, given that TPE are somewhat stretched resource wise?

 

[Grimsby town]

The London service is more of a luxury than a necessity. I'd echo what others have said that it is of greater importance to sort out the existing service within Lincolnshire. Healing and Stallingbourgh have seen passenger numbers increase by about 50% without an increase in services. They need an hourly service at least. Grimsby Docks could be served by TPE to help regenerate the area.

Brigg needs a 6 day a week service. Even if it is only 3 trains a day. Market Rasen has seen passenger numbers increase from 40,000 to 60,000 in 10 years while the service has actually become worse. If the service was increased passenger numbers should boom.

Hopefully the new East Midlands Trains Franchise will see improvements for Lincolnshire.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I agree with the Grimsby town comment.
The suggestion of TPE services at Grimsby Docks is great, if it happens it would be great for the Freeman Quarter and East Marsh areas. It's easy to fit it into the timetable.

However, the council's Local Transport Plan (LTP3) is for unknown reason looking at replacing the station and New Clee with a single new one at Riby Square.
I'm not sure if the council's plan is a good idea at all as it's further from the Market and Asda.

Also I fail to understand why Cleethorpes to Scunthorpe service don't stop at Habrough at all times, the trains leave Scunthorpe at the same time regardless of stopping there.
--- My Comment above --- --- Quote about Worse TPE services below ---

From Humber Transport Blog, Jan/8th/15:

There could have been fairly significant cuts to services and train lengths but this has largely been avoided. However there is one disappointing change in the Humber region:"An hourly service will be maintained between Manchester Airport, Sheffield, Doncaster and Cleethorpes.

The vast majority of these will remain as direct services. Limited amends are planned, with customers for the 3:55pm between Manchester Airport and Cleethorpes and the 4:26pm Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport needing to change at Doncaster."The 1555 from Manchester Airport departs Sheffield at 1716 and Doncaster at 1747 (1742 Sat, 1737 Sun) and therefore provides the main peak time service from South Yorkshire to the South Humber area. Both the 1555 and 1626 serve Grimsby Town, Barnetby and Scunthorpe en-route, and apart from the 1626 on Sunday's also serve Habrough.

For Habrough it will mean no through departure from Manchester Airport between 1355 and 1855, and no through departure to Manchester Airport between 1444 and 1744. It's not clear if the proposed changes affect just weekdays, Monday to Saturdays, or every day.TransPennine Express have provided justification as follows: "We and Government recognises the importance of direct trains to Manchester Airport from Cleethorpes, Grimsby and other communities in the area.

However, by splitting one service per day at Doncaster, we can better match train capacity to demand, by using a longer train West of Doncaster and a shorter train East of Doncaster. We have been able to protect all other through services. The key reason for this is to ensure that we do not have a two -car 170 turning up at Sheffield or Manchester in the peaks."When you are in a tricky situation difficult decisions have to made, and a connection will be available at Doncaster.

However what needs to be ensured is that this is not the 'thin end of the wedge'. There was recently a very strong, and successful, campaign to stop all through services between the South Humber Area and Manchester being withdrawn.

Here's some infomation about short TPE services ending at Doncaster that I talked about earlier in little detail.

http://humbertransport.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/dont-let-it-be-thin-end-of-wedge.html?m=0

 

[berneyarms]

Here's some infomation about short TPE services ending at Doncaster that I talked about earlier in little detail.

http://humbertransport.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/dont-let-it-be-thin-end-of-wedge.html?m=0

Which is what I mentioned in my post above.

 

[Grimsby town]

I don't know if anybody either has any information or has noticed but it seems as though there are speed restrictions again between Scunthorpe and Doncaster. It is only a few years since the last major closure to deal with this problem. A permanent solution needs to be put into place and for me it involves the closure of the line and a diversion created.

With the countries infrastructure planned to change so much in the next couple of decades (Hs2, Hs3) a new line should take this into account and a new the line should diverge just after the current canal crossing just after Althorpe and should head north to join the Hull to Selby line and the eventual Hs3 line. The new line would allow direct trains from Scunthorpe / Grimsby to Leeds, York, Hull and Manchester via highspeed 3. Services from Grimsby to Sheffield would be maintained via the Brigg Line. Thorne South and Crowle would be closed under the plan.

Now the cost of this would probably prohibit it actually happening but if the rail line, which is one of the most important for rail freight in the country and inadequate for passengers is taken millions of pounds and closures just keep it open every couple of years, something needs to be done.

 

[lincolnshire]

I don't know if anybody either has any information or has noticed but it seems as though there are speed restrictions again between Scunthorpe and Doncaster. It is only a few years since the last major closure to deal with this problem. A permanent solution needs to be put into place and for me it involves the closure of the line and a diversion created.

With the countries infrastructure planned to change so much in the next couple of decades (Hs2, Hs3) a new line should take this into account and a new the line should diverge just after the current canal crossing just after Althorpe and should head north to join the Hull to Selby line and the eventual Hs3 line. The new line would allow direct trains from Scunthorpe / Grimsby to Leeds, York, Hull and Manchester via highspeed 3. Services from Grimsby to Sheffield would be maintained via the Brigg Line. Thorne South and Crowle would be closed under the plan.

Now the cost of this would probably prohibit it actually happening but if the rail line, which is one of the most important for rail freight in the country and inadequate for passengers is taken millions of pounds and closures just keep it open every couple of years, something needs to be done.

So are you saying that after Keadby Canal Drawbridge that the line should then head North to join which line ? Goole to Thrne Junction line or cross that one as well and head towards the Gilberdyke to Selby line ?

If thats what your thinking after Keadby Canal start heading North, i think you will find unless moneys no object etc that all you will have is the same sort of land as its all former peat bogs and river beds, the surrounding area was drained by Mr. Vermuyden when he moved rivers and dug out Dutch river to drain the land so it could b used for farming etc.

There used to be the Axholme Joint Railway which passed across this area from just outside of Goole through Crowle and Epworth and joining in with the Gainsborugh / Docaster Line at Haxey Junction.

If you look at the A161 from Goole to Crowle its 13 mies long but could be about less than half the distance if this went straight from Goole to Crowle instead of meandering around between the two places. It was always said build a road where the cattle walk as they will always keep to the higher and firmer ground so that were the roads end up.

The chances of moving the railway line must be very slim, so we are stuck with the route we have which yet again runs across peat land.

One less problem now is at Stainforth as the coal mine is now finished and filling in the shafts has started so no more spoil coming out for the slag heap so it will not get any higher.

 

[Donny Dave]

I don't know if anybody either has any information or has noticed but it seems as though there are speed restrictions again between Scunthorpe and Doncaster. It is only a few years since the last major closure to deal with this problem. A permanent solution needs to be put into place and for me it involves the closure of the line and a diversion created.

With the countries infrastructure planned to change so much in the next couple of decades (Hs2, Hs3) a new line should take this into account and a new the line should diverge just after the current canal crossing just after Althorpe and should head north to join the Hull to Selby line and the eventual Hs3 line. The new line would allow direct trains from Scunthorpe / Grimsby to Leeds, York, Hull and Manchester via highspeed 3. Services from Grimsby to Sheffield would be maintained via the Brigg Line. Thorne South and Crowle would be closed under the plan.

Now the cost of this would probably prohibit it actually happening but if the rail line, which is one of the most important for rail freight in the country and inadequate for passengers is taken millions of pounds and closures just keep it open every couple of years, something needs to be done.

Regarding the closures first. The landslip was completely out of the railways control, but NR stepped some other heavy maintanence to take advantage of the route closure. Previous to that, there was a blockade at Medge Hall for 3 months to sort out the line along side the canal and get rid of a 5mph TSR, work that is good for quite a few years yet. Prior to that, I can't remember that last time the route was closed between Scunthorpe and Doncaster barring the odd weekend.

Anyway, building a new route so that the new journey would be Scunthorpe - (Goole? Would you build a new station or bypass the town?) - Selby - Leeds, would be counter productive, and would probably lose passengers. My experience of the South TPE route is that the main passenger flows from Grimsby and Scunthorpe are to Doncaster, Meadowhall and Sheffield, mainly for the connections available at Doncaster and Sheffield, and the shopping at Doncaster and Meadowhall. That's quite a lot of passengers to try and replace by going to Leeds/York.

Also, the stations at Thorne South and Crowle .... They maybe unstaffed and only served by an hourly stopper, but again (from my own experiences), there aare a few people (between 5 and 10) who do use the train each hour.

 

[Grimsby town]

With regards to the line going through the land being on a peat bog, I believe that Barnetby to Scunthorpe is also on similar land but the linespeed is planned to be increased to 75mph and doesn't see the same sinking as the line near the Keadby Canal.

The landslip at stainforth was a freak event but as I mentioned it seems there are speed restrictions again on the stretch between the Keadby Canal and Thorne.

The reason for the line which I'm not putting in any set route as I don't know the area well enough to come up with a concrete route but would have junctions towards Hull, Selby and Goole (for freight) would be used to avoid problems with the line from the canal crossing and Thorne. Transport patterns will change. HS2 and HS3 will make it quicker for passenger from Grimsby / Scunthorpe to travel via Leeds and not Doncaster. Sheffield can also be reached via Leeds once Hs2 and Hs3 have been built. I maybe didn't make myself clear but this also a way to link South Humberside into Hs3.

Crowle is used by around 30,000 people and Thorne South can either be served by an increased frequency or remain open as a terminus.

I'm not suggesting this is the best plan but this a problem which holds back South Humberside.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Why would Crowle and Thorne South need to shut?
Northern could still run and just TPE on this route.
Personally I'd rather use the new track to link Brigg and Scunthorpe.
An alternative route to Doncaster does exist via Gainsborough anyway.
I suggest a look at JMP South Humber rail report.