Thames Valley changes 07/09

[Deepgreen]

Another 165/1 this morning - first class for the third day in a row! This was the 0819 from Betchworth - so nothing has actually changed apart from the fact that anyone can travel in first. I wonder how quickly word will spread, given that the only publicity I have seen is the removal of the '1' at the head of each train in the timetable, which I imagine almost no-one will notice (on top of the errors where the 1743 and 1843 from Redhill are still shown as having first when they shouldn't).

 

[infobleep]

Another 165/1 this morning - first class for the third day in a row! This was the 0819 from Betchworth - so nothing has actually changed apart from the fact that anyone can travel in first. I wonder how quickly word will spread, given that the only publicity I have seen is the removal of the '1' at the head of each train in the timetable, which I imagine almost no-one will notice (on top of the errors where the 1743 and 1843 from Redhill are still shown as having first when they shouldn't).

Does anyone know how long they plan to use a 165/1 on that service for? I take it the intention is to move to non first class rolling stock as soon as possible. If not I'm surprised they didn't keep this service as first class.

 

[MCR247]

That's interesting. Then they must be making money from it, which means not being able to move down a train isn't always a barrier to having catering on a train.

Whilst the SWT trolley service probably makes a profit (or a small loss), the 18.30 service itself may not make a profit

 

[infobleep]

Whilst the SWT trolley service probably makes a profit (or a small loss), the 18.30 service itself may not make a profit

Unless that train is used purely for positioning of staff moves, if it makes a loss, you have thought they would run the trolley on another train.

 

[Deepgreen]

Does anyone know how long they plan to use a 165/1 on that service for? I take it the intention is to move to non first class rolling stock as soon as possible. If not I'm surprised they didn't keep this service as first class.

The 'plan' was for the stoppers to be std. only from Monday 7 Sept. I have been on 3 different stopper diagramsthisweek and all have been 166 or 165/1 units.

 

[455driver]

First day of the withdrawal of first class from the Reading to Redhill trains today (the stoppers), and my train had... first class! 165114 operated the 1113 departure from Betchworth and I assume it will have operated all day on the line.

So you think it is practical to remove the 1st class seats and stripes from all the 165s overnight do you! :roll:

 

[cactustwirly]

I personally think that the first class area will be retained but just declassified for specific journeys.

 

[swt_passenger]

I personally think that the first class area will be retained but just declassified for specific journeys.

Removal of first class seats isn't likely to happen overnight, as their website suggests 20th Sept will just be the start, so what's happening today is not creating a precedent:

We’re increasing Standard Class seating by removing First Class from many of our fleet of suburban Turbo trains - and from Sunday 20 September some services will no longer have First Class seats.

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/fleetchanges

 

[jimm]

I personally think that the first class area will be retained but just declassified for specific journeys.

No, it will be declassified full stop, by the removal of the big figure 1 on the outside, removal of the yellow stripe - though experience with declassifying one end of the 166s suggests this job may take a while - removal of the window stickers, no more antimacassars and the locking open of the sliding vestibule doors. The existing seats won't be going anywhere in a hurry.

 

[JonathanH]

No, it will be declassified full stop, by the removal of the big figure 1 on the outside, removal of the yellow stripe - though experience with declassifying one end of the 166s suggests this job may take a while - removal of the window stickers, no more antimacassars and the locking open of the sliding vestibule doors. The existing seats won't be going anywhere in a hurry.

I suppose the key question is how many standard seats of the kind fitted to 165/166/365/465 fleet are in store somewhere. The seats made spare from the fitting of luggage racks to the 166 fleet were reused when the original declassification of part of first class in the 3-car 165/1s was done.

However, the Chiltern 165/0 refurbishment released some standard class seats and the 465/9 change must also have released some. However, I suspect that some of those would have been used replacing damaged seats.

I suppose the key question is whether they would want to bother fitting 22 seats 3+2 style in the former first class compartment (the middle block with a restricted view) instead of the existing 16 first class seats.

 

[infobleep]

In future it may not be worth buying a first class ticket on the north down line as you'll be limited to one less train an hour if you wish to enjoy first class travel than using a standard class ticket.

Yes a first class ticket is valid in standard class but why pay more for less?

The first class will provide a faster journey to the major places on route but if you've arrived in time for the stopper, unintentional or otherwise, it won't save you any time waiting for the first service.

 

[Deepgreen]

So you think it is practical to remove the 1st class seats and stripes from all the 165s overnight do you! :roll:

No, of course not, but I did assume that a batch of FGW's 165s had no first class anyway, and that they would have been used. If I am wrong on that, it would explain the current situation.

 

[infobleep]

No, of course not, but I did assume that a batch of FGW's 165s had no first class anyway, and that they would have been used. If I am wrong on that, it would explain the current situation.

That's what I had assumed and that it was only being done to reshuffle stock rather than actually turn existing first class stock into standard class.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I suppose it's Crossrail or electrification related rather than anything to do with First Class, but the weekend service seems to have been downgraded. I thought it used to be four trains an hour to and from major stations like Maidenhead. It's now only two and they don't connect in the London direction with the service from the Marlow branch without a fifteen minute wait.

 

[Deepgreen]

Removal of first class seats isn't likely to happen overnight, as their website suggests 20th Sept will just be the start, so what's happening today is not creating a precedent:

Odd that they stated 7 September as the date for the revised provision timetable - i.e. the removal of first class, when they state 20 September here.

 

[hassaanhc]

Odd that they stated 7 September as the date for the revised provision timetable - i.e. the removal of first class, when they state 20 September here.

Southall has new GWR-branded timetable posters, which give a start date of 7 September

 

[swt_passenger]

Odd that they stated 7 September as the date for the revised provision timetable - i.e. the removal of first class, when they state 20 September here.

I think it is possibly just because 7 Sept is one of the set start/end dates for 'timetable variations'. Start of NR 'Period H'.

 

[cactustwirly]

Southall has new GWR-branded timetable posters, which give a start date of 7 September

Twyford also has the new timetable posters.

20th September is also the start of the direct award, so I'm guessing the declassification is in the contract.

 

[Deepgreen]

Does anyone know what happened on the North Downs line this morning? I usually catch the 0819 from Betchworth to Reading, but it was cancelled throughout according to RTT with "Unknown Cause". I drove to Dorking to catch a Waterloo train, missed it by a few seconds owing to road works en route, so ran back to Deepdene for the 0835 to Gatwick which the screen at Dorking Main said was on time. When I got to Deepdene the platform was crammed from end to end and the screen said it was 12 late! Once on the train I heard a conversation that included that the/a driver had failed to stop at two stations and had come to a halt between stations and waited for around 20 minutes for control to decide what to do. I don't know which train this referred to, and I'm keen to understand the facts. Ironically, the Gatwick (i.e. semi-fast) train stopped at Betchworth (even though RTT shows it as "pass"), so I might just as well have gone there anyway!

 

[infobleep]

The 7.48 from Guildford was cancelled due to a train fault. The Gatwick Airport train then got delayed by an earlier broken down train. I guess it stopped at every stop the 7.48 missed. Hence being 20 late by Redhill and the Gatwick Airport stop cancelled.

Hopefully today they allow time for the Gatwick Airport passengers to reach and catch it, given it was starting short but that's far from certain.

 

[Deepgreen]

Thanks for that - interesting that Chilworth and Betchworth appear twice (in the wrong places) in the journey progression! Of course, with the platform indicator at Betchworth hardly ever working, and the help points not working either (despite my reporting this months ago) we Betchworth passengers are apparently Betchworth-less when it comes to information! Still, as FGW glibly says every time we complain, they take passenger information so seriously!

 

[infobleep]

Thanks for that - interesting that Chilworth anbd Betchworth appear twice (in the wrong places) in the journey progression!

That's due to some bug or the way the programme accesses the data.

Perhaps someone else knows why this occurs. Gets very confusing at times. It seems to record and display every change, where as the Web Site only displays the final changes.

From an enthusias point of view, it does mean you can see every change a member of staff have made. So in this case Betchworth seems to have been cancelled at some point and reinstated but I may be misunderstanding how this issue occurs.

Given they do update and release new versions of the National Rail Enquiries App, not sure why this continues to be like this.

 

[lightbulb]

I travelled this morning on the 1043 from Southall to Paddington, a three-car 165 with 1st class which is advertised in the timetable booklet as not conveying 1st class. I used Oyster Pay-As-You-Go, and sat in the 1st class section. There was only one other passenger, and a RPI entered soon after departure from STL, and asked to see my 1st class ticket.

I replied that I had an Oyster card, and that I understood that the 1st class accommodation was declassified. He said that it was not, and pointed to the First Class sign on the doors. I pointed out that irrespective of any signs, the timetable indicated that there was no 1st class accommodation advertised on this train, and handed him the timetable booklet. He said that this was irrelevant, and the accommodation was still 1st class.

He then pointed out that the next section beyond the doors was declassified first. I replied that that accommodation had been once been first class, but was converted to standard class some time ago. He said that it was declassified, and that the seats were the same as those in first class. Yes, I said, they are two plus two, rather than three plus two, but they were physically not the same as the 1st class two plus two seats. He then commented that I was likely to keep this conversation going for the whole journey.

So I asked him what he wanted me to do, saying I would comply with his wishes. Would he like to give me a penalty fare? He declined, and went into the rear cab, saying that the other passenger had paid for a 1st class ticket.

 

[coxy]

I travelled this morning on the 1043 from Southall to Paddington, a three-car 165 with 1st class which is advertised in the timetable booklet as not conveying 1st class. I used Oyster Pay-As-You-Go, and sat in the 1st class section. There was only one other passenger, and a RPI entered soon after departure from STL, and asked to see my 1st class ticket.

I replied that I had an Oyster card, and that I understood that the 1st class accommodation was declassified. He said that it was not, and pointed to the First Class sign on the doors. I pointed out that irrespective of any signs, the timetable indicated that there was no 1st class accommodation advertised on this train, and handed him the timetable booklet. He said that this was irrelevant, and the accommodation was still 1st class.

He then pointed out that the next section beyond the doors was declassified first. I replied that that accommodation had been once been first class, but was converted to standard class some time ago. He said that it was declassified, and that the seats were the same as those in first class. Yes, I said, they are two plus two, rather than three plus two, but they were physically not the same as the 1st class two plus two seats. He then commented that I was likely to keep this conversation going for the whole journey.

So I asked him what he wanted me to do, saying I would comply with his wishes. Would he like to give me a penalty fare? He declined, and went into the rear cab, saying that the other passenger had paid for a 1st class ticket.

I had a not too dissimilar conversation with an RPI on Tuesday of this week.

Jumped on-board a 3 car 165 from Taplow heading towards Paddington, and made my way to what used to be the 1st class section. I found the glass doors closed, and the white "hankies" still fitted to the headrests.

An RPI was sitting inside the cabin, so I asked if I was ok to sit there too. They said only passengers in possession of a 1st class ticket could use the cabin.

I replied that I thought this particular service no longer advertised 1st class as being available and therefore you could sit anywhere on the train. They said that was only going to happen on "the smaller trains", so this was still a valid 1st class cabin.

Seems confusion reigns at the moment

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You should always treat first class as "active" unless the platform screens say otherwise, just like Southern does.

The simple fact is that GW could have been using that unit to cover for a failed standard class unit or that train could have been making an additional call to cover for a preceding train's cancellation.

So if it were the latter the revenue protection inspector could have quite easily dished out a PFN to you or even arranged for a friendly chat with a member of the BTP, maybe you struck lucky & they were nearing the end of their shift, so didn't want the hassle of all of the paperwork & general aggro.

IMO the best option would always be to ask first, if they say No, then that's their prerogative, however asking politely sometimes reaps rewards and you might get a free "upgrade", never assume, that you can occupy a first class seat unless you're given the OK to do so or the information screens say that the first class accommodation is declassified.

 

[lightbulb]

...or the information screens say that the first class accommodation is declassified.

So the printed timetable is not to be taken as the official source for whether a train conveys first class accommodation?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

So the printed timetable is not to be taken as the official source for whether a train conveys first class accommodation?

I've had a look at the GW timetables online and almost all of them show that even the Thames Valley commuter services & local services have 1st class facilities and if you enter an area with 1st class seating & antimacassars on them then you should treat it as an active 1st class area, if standard class seating was available or even if it was standing room only, then you're obliged to use it with an Oyster card, unless of course you have obtained either a 1st class upgrade, the guard makes the announcement that 1st is declassified (usually only in times of severe disruption), you have obtained permission from the conductor/guard/TM or the screens on the platform state that 1st class is declassified on that service.

Just dumping yourself into a 1st class area with an Oyster card or standard class ticket is just inviting & leaving yourself open to trouble and with the option of having an unnecessary chat with the BTP & possible prosecution, unless of course you make the offer to pay to upgrade to 1st, then you're going to be sold a ticket which gives you the right to sit in there.

The simple solution is ASK, you should know by now that you don't leave yourself open and this lot which run the railway now will do the utmost to maximise revenue. And they will even bust active rail staff too, even when on duty unless they have the relevant passes or authority of a manager or are being accompanied by a manager for some reason.

 

[Mag_seven]

never assume, that you can occupy a first class seat unless you're given the OK to do so or the information screens say that the first class accommodation is declassified.

If the train you are travelling on is advertised has being standard class only in the TT or is being used on a standard class only route then you can use the 1st class accommodation (with a standard ticket) if it happens to have it.

A similar issue arose on AGA, where some peak hour trains from Southend were advertised in the TT as being standard class only because they were operated by standard class only 315s - they subsequently changed to Class 321's without a corresponding change to the info in the TT.

Similarly when ScotRail 170's appear on routes which are standard class only (e.g. Glasgow QS- Anniesland) the 1st class can be used without question.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've had a look at the GW timetables online and almost all of them show that even the Thames Valley commuter services & local services have 1st class facilities

No they don't. For example the bulk of the xx.12, xx.27, xx.42 and xx.57 ex Pad do not have a "1" symbol above them

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Go download one then! I just downloaded on and it shows that LTV services (East 1) have 1st class on them.

Anyway have a look at this old thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60832

 

[lightbulb]

I've had a look at the GW timetables online and almost all of them show that even the Thames Valley commuter services & local services have 1st class facilities...

The new GW timetables from 7th September show that the only Thames Valley local services (defined here as trains calling at Ealing Broadway) with 1st class facilities are as follows:

Departures from Paddington
Monday to Friday:
0134
0334
1625
1645
1648
1657
1746
1757
1816
1825
1857
1912

Saturdays from 31st October:
0034
0144
0334

Arrivals at Paddington
Monday to Friday:
0141
0317
0318 MX
0449
0547
0708
0816
0832
0837
0916

Saturdays from 31st October:
0116