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Uber taxis

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D841 Roebuck

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An interesting thread.

As I prefer to use cash, and consider Hackney Carriages a rip off, my occasional journeys will continue to be old fashioned Private Hire stylee ring and book jobs.
 
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Deerfold

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So where's TfL and their app allowing all black cabs to be booked and paid for and reviewed in the same way but at the existing tariff?

I think I'd choose the TfL service if it were there, to be honest - you can be sure it will be run to the benefit of passengers and not solely for profit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
IOW, compete (on convenience, and sell why the black cab is worth the extra) or die.

I think you misunderstand TfL's role with regard to Taxis. They do not run any taxis - they are the regulator and regulate both black cabs and mini cabs.

They do have a service which will send you a phone number for black cabs and two local minicab services but they don't get any more involved than that.

TfL neither encourage or discourage people from applying to be a driver of either type - so the number of black cab or mini cab drivers may be too low or too high for the demand. TfL only took over this regulation in 2000 - for the previous 150 years the regulator was part of the Metropolitan Police.

If TfL started promoting black cabs over mini cabs, I'm sure they would complain vociferously.
 

Stompehh

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Are Uber regulated differently in London to elsewhere then?

They've recently started up in Bristol and they are regulated like other private hire cars, have to pass the same tests etc (inc a knowledge test). Some other private hire firms also have apps available and almost all of them use a meter (they often offer an upfront price but the odds are pretty stacked in your favour that the meter will be cheaper).
 

Deerfold

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Are Uber regulated differently in London to elsewhere then?

They've recently started up in Bristol and they are regulated like other private hire cars, have to pass the same tests etc (inc a knowledge test). Some other private hire firms also have apps available and almost all of them use a meter (they often offer an upfront price but the odds are pretty stacked in your favour that the meter will be cheaper).

Only insomuch as regulation differs between any council areas.

Private hire drivers in London have no knowledge test and are not permitted to use a meter - the fare is to be agreed in advance.
 

Bletchleyite

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Private hire drivers in London have no knowledge test and are not permitted to use a meter - the fare is to be agreed in advance.

Actually in advance? That is very much a London thing, then; it is near enough unheard of elsewhere. In Council areas where a taximeter is not used, the fare is near enough always determined at the end, usually based on the mileage at start and end on the odometer, or in some cases "what did you pay last time, mate?".
 

bb21

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I don't like to see anyone out of work more than anyone else does, but if Uber makes the black cab less popular, that's just the passenger speaking, isn't it?

The reason for me wanting to use an Uber-like service (Uber themselves do not serve MK, the company offering the service is Speedline) has little to do with it being cheaper (to me, taxi travel just comes under "expensive" and it is only used when proper public transport is not a viable option), and everything to do with the convenience factors noted above. So where's TfL and their app allowing all black cabs to be booked and paid for and reviewed in the same way but at the existing tariff?

I think I'd choose the TfL service if it were there, to be honest - you can be sure it will be run to the benefit of passengers and not solely for profit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
IOW, compete (on convenience, and sell why the black cab is worth the extra) or die.

I have no issue with any of these. Indeed if Uber and co can help speed up the pace at which the taxi/private hire industry modernises then all the better.

My concern is that with Uber driving out more conventional taxis and with no regulation over their pricing structure at the top end, we could potentially end up with a comparatively much less regulated market in which Uber enjoys a much more dominant position compared to now, and passengers in a much weaker position in extreme circumstances because (regulated) competition has significantly reduced.

For example, I am fairly sure right now that if freak weather hits London tomorrow and paralyses the whole transport network, if I manage to get hold of a cab I can pay my usual fare of £15 to do my usual journey from the station to my office. Even if I struggle to get hold of one initially, I may well wait it out, perhaps in a designated station taxi queue, knowing that there are plenty of cabbies on the road who would charge me £15 for the journey. The thought of paying inflated prices may never enter my mind. Should Uber drive a significant number of the conventional cabbies away from their current job, my probability of getting hold of a conventional taxi would be drastically reduced, and that may mean a very difficult decision on whether to pay the vastly inflated £45 for my £15 journey because the latter may involve an impossibly long wait and the market is now flooded with Uber drivers. Now that they realise they could get away with charging three times the price, next time something happens, corporate greed may dictate that prices go up to four times since the market of those who had no other real choice could clearly bear it. (Figures and scenario for illustrative purposes only.)

That to me parallels the practice of those petrol stations which charged £5 a litre during the fuel crisis in 2000 (or was it 1999?).

Regulate the maximum price they can charge and wipe out the possibility of that scenario occurring, and I will be a very happy bunny. (I know in the real world it can never be completely eliminated, as in those extreme situations there will always be the odd private car owners carrying out that sort of morally dubious practice.)
 

Bletchleyite

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So the main issue is the surge pricing? Might it help if it was regulated to maybe twice the regular fare? After all, Hackney carriages charge more at certain times of day and on days like Christmas. It's just Uber is more flexible in the way it does that.
 

stut

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I think it's a good thing the taxi industry is being forced to modernise. Black cabs are great on the whole, but there's far too few of them, and they're concentrated in central London. Why should they have dominion over the metred taxi industry in Croydon or Barnet when they can't even be bothered turning up there?

What's needed, though, is a competitor to Uber. Is Lyft coming to London? Can't see the fist-bump thing working here, but still.
 

Tetchytyke

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After all, Hackney carriages charge more at certain times of day and on days like Christmas.

And the fare structure is transparent. I know my Hackney Carriage fare from Hemel station to my partner's house is £5.50 before 11pm, or £7.80 after 11pm or on Sundays or Bank Holidays.

There isn't "ooh, it's chucking it down, I'll add a fiver to it".

Uber must be bad if they've got the cabbies and Addison Lee to agree on something.
 
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Tetchytyke

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If Uber slightly changed their app, so that it gave you the *confirmed* price at booking (which it should be able to do) I wouldn't have an issue with it. Even the surge pricing wouldn't bother me, distasteful as I find it.

My issue is that they are seeking to act as a Hackney Carriage without meeting the licencing, accessibility or insurance requirements of a Hackney Carriage. Outside of London these requirements aren't very different, but they're different enough.
 

jon0844

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Uber is bad for Addison Lee and the cabbies. I disagree it's bad for the consumer.

Consumers love Uber. It's a great app (and quite cool if you use a smartwatch to order one, I'd imagine) but just as people used to take unlicensed mini cabs, there needs to be some protection for people who aren't necessarily aware of potential risks.

Uber itself needs to be run more like a proper company, not some disruptive start up that breaks rules and spends a fortune on lobbying.

People will love Uber until something bad happens, and then everyone will be 'why were they allowed to do this?'.

This is why some regulation may be unpopular, but is vital.

Imagine the railway relaxing some rules and regulations to save money. It just wouldn't happen.
 

Bletchleyite

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If Uber slightly changed their app, so that it gave you the *confirmed* price at booking (which it should be able to do) I wouldn't have an issue with it. Even the surge pricing wouldn't bother me, distasteful as I find it.

I'd agree with that. Is the surge pricing not applied as defined at the time of booking? I thought it was.
 

jon0844

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Having not used the app myself (I'm still resisting) I thought you had the option to get a fixed price in advance? Surely there can be no surprises then?
 

Bletchleyite

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Imagine the railway relaxing some rules and regulations to save money. It just wouldn't happen.

It does. Think 3 very controversial letters that are way OT for this thread :)

But in any case...to me the regulation needs to be about passenger safety (DBS checks, driving standards, vehicle standards) and not about methods of operation (the Knowledge vs. sat-nav), say, nor about pricing structures.

Actually, I wish taxi drivers *would* simply ask the postcode and house number at the start of the journey and stick it in a sat-nav then I could sit back and relax and not have to direct them, nor would they, as they sometimes do, attempt to defraud me by taking a longer route! (With sat-nav with traffic feature they could simply ask "shortest or fastest" and that would be the passenger's choice).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having not used the app myself (I'm still resisting) I thought you had the option to get a fixed price in advance? Surely there can be no surprises then?

ISTR the app acts as a meter, but I did think (possibly wrongly) that the price charged was based on the rate at the time of booking.

If it was fixed-price, you could imagine a load of arguments when the passenger inevitably asks for more stops or similar and the driver has to either say no (and risk assault) or say yes and not be paid extra for them.

However, I do agree the "surge pricing" should be as defined at the time of booking, not at the time of taking the trip.
 
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Deerfold

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And the fare structure is transparent. I know my Hackney Carriage fare from Hemel station to my partner's house is £5.50 before 11pm, or £7.80 after 11pm or on Sundays or Bank Holidays.

There isn't "ooh, it's chucking it down, I'll add a fiver to it".

Uber must be bad if they've got the cabbies and Addison Lee to agree on something.

I'm not familiar with taxis in Hemel, but in London if you hit congestion the fare will keep going up as you sit longer in traffic - so will go up uncontrollably when there is disruption - and without being notified before the journey.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm not familiar with taxis in Hemel, but in London if you hit congestion the fare will keep going up as you sit longer in traffic

As with all Hackney Carriages, the tariff includes waiting time if the cab is stationary. If there's a lot of stationary traffic you may pay more than if the traffic is free moving. But the tariff is set by the council and it isn't that the cabbie can double the price just because it's raining or there are a lot of people getting off the London train unexpectedly.
 

34D

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Apologies if already posted, but the Law Commission did a report on taxis and private hire vehicles last year: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/taxi-and-private-hire-services

Trying to block uber using their app is totally ridiculous: TfL are just looking after the licenced black cab drivers and ignoring the consumer.

Personally I wish we no longer had the two tier setup, but that's just a personal view.
 

Bletchleyite

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Personally I wish we no longer had the two tier setup, but that's just a personal view.

It would be interesting to see what would happen to fares and service quality were the system deregulated completely other than criminal records, appropriate insurance and vehicle/driver safety checks. I expect it would mostly be to the advantage of passengers, though possibly not drivers, though I could see there being the odd silly case of an excessive fare being demanded (not that that doesn't happen now, of course).
 

GaryMcEwan

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I tried to use Uber once, and never used it again. The driver had accepted the job and then 5 minutes later cancelled the job and refused to come and pick me up.

I now use an app called Gett and it's only available to black hacks, and is imo the best app I've ever used. You can track the driver, see how long it's going to be, all the drivers are rated based on user experience, and they usually call you to let you know if they are going to be in any way late.

I've been referring a lot of people to it, as they get £10 free credit, and after their first ride, my account balance has £10 put into it as well.

I can't remember the last time I actually paid for a taxi because of this app.
 

Bletchleyite

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Or the opposite: private hires with ordinary cars being outlawed in favour of accessible vehicles.

Indeed, though I would suggest that being expensive, unnecessary and quite polluting because such vehicles necessitate being larger (which to me is one of the problems with the London hackney carriage system). Provided it is easy for someone requiring one to obtain an accessible vehicle quickly and easily and at no additional cost over a regular one, perhaps by telephone, I see no reason why all of them should be accessible. The key is that there is sufficient provision that there is no disadvantage - I don't see why it has to be the *same* provision if that has a substantial disadvantage to the city as a whole.

In many Indian cities, most taxis are often very small vehicles - things like the Chevrolet Matiz - and this will reduce congestion and pollution.
 

34D

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That's a very good point, but how does one enforce 'sufficiency' amongst one man band outfits?
 

jonthetaxi

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Just thought I'd add my bit to this thread as a soon to be former London Taxi Driver. I am starting train driver training in November with Thameslink/Great Northern.
The main issue our trade has with Uber is the instant flag down with their app. We were/are told if we do the Knowledge of London, (which took me 3 and a half years putting in roughly 40-50 hours a week of unpaid study and all the other costs incurred) and we buy or rent a vehicle specified by TFL and we charge a price set by parliament, that only we have the privilege of picking up off the street. Private hire CAN ONLY be pre-booked. Obviously nobody saw how technology was going to develop but the app system is simply flagging a car down electronically. If the middle classes who paid for their degree's were told your degree is now worthless for your chosen employment they would be complaining too.
The second issue is Uber's business model is unsustainable in it's present form. The driver has to pay between 20-30 % of their earnings to Uber depending on the logarithm. They are demanding their drivers buy/lease eco friendly vehicles which are not cheap. After expenses a lot of drivers are not earning minimum wage and it's well known that they are claiming working tax credits.
Uber is registered as a Technology company in Holland because it gives them a preferential rate of tax of about 6%. Of course when they want an operators licence in our country they miraculously become a transport company but because all their income is funnelled off shore they don't pay tax anyway. They have paid no corporation tax to date and state they are not making any profit, (a company valued at 80 billion pounds and no profit!). So as well as hitting our treasury by not paying any tax on their earnings, there is the double whammy of the UK taxpayer subsiding their exploitative business model by topping up drivers wages.
I personally think Uber with all their slick PR and connections in government are going to take over the industry and when there is no competition left they are the last man standing and can bump up prices to whatever level they wish while at the same time pushing down the driver's income to make him/her work longer hours for less. My income has dropped 30-40% and most other drivers I know give a similar figure although the best I've heard is 20%, which in London, without sounding melodramatic is unsurvivable. In London we are considered an expensive option but we are consistently voted the best taxi service in the world by business travellers and tourists. Customer satisfaction polls return something like 85% which the likes of John Lewis or Marks & Spencer's could only dream of, unfortunately our trade is not the most forward thinking because we are all single business's and we don't have the slick PR or money to fight it. I consider myself now to be the luckiest taxi driver in London to have been offered a job on the railway because my personal view is in 5 years there will be no trade and if there is it definitely won't be one where you earn a living wage.
The consumer demand's cheap goods and services but it comes at the expense of working men and women. I've always worked at night and have had surprisingly few complaint's over the last 16 years about cost. But when I have I ask the passenger who the majority of times has come out of a bar/restaurant/club if they complained about the extortionate prices charged in London establishments. Some clubs charge £20 just to walk through the door! But at 3am after a night on the beer people think you should take them the length of London for less than they would pay for one of their fancy cocktails! Personally, I would rather see working people paid a living wage and the faceless corporation taking less profit but we all know that's never gonna happen.
Obviously, I'm biased but Uber is the worst face of capitalism. There business is parasitic, they believe they can do as they wish and because of the size of there company nobody can stop them. In Spain they were banned but the statement says they respect the judgement but they will continue trading anyway. It has reached the stage where big business thinks it can tell government's what to do and they should have freedom to earn their profits without any tax. And interestingly our government won't tell them what to do because they want to be seen as business friendly. (but not to the 24,000 taxi driver business).
Didn't mean to ramble on so long, but can't wait to get out and join everyone in the rail industry.
 

jon0844

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Thanks for taking the time to ramble. I've tried to take a stand by not using Uber, although I have been in one booked by someone else and many other people I know rave about it because of the convenience.

It needs to be sorted.
 

miami

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The main issue our trade has with Uber is the instant flag down with their app. We were/are told if we do the Knowledge of London, (which took me 3 and a half years putting in roughly 40-50 hours a week of unpaid study and all the other costs incurred) and we buy or rent a vehicle specified by TFL and we charge a price set by parliament, that only we have the privilege of picking up off the street.

I'm sorry you lost out, the last generation of cabbies to have to jump through such hoops. I lost out with house prices, owning a dingy flat in Leighton Buzzard that's still in negative equalty while pouring most of my earnings into renting a 3 bed house. But then I was sensible, putting 6 months wage as a deposit and getting a mortgage for 3.5 times my salary. Friends who had help from the bank of mum-and-dad and took out 5x mortgages all bought massive houses 3 years earlier. My point is, ..it happens, someone is left holding the parcel. Someone always loses, although it's very unlucky to lose in every way. I don't know how old you are, but if you're lucky you'll still receive a pension. People leaving school this year won't.

Private hire CAN ONLY be pre-booked.

At Manchester airport I "prebook" a car from Arrow, walk outside and it's waiting, 2 minutes top. With Uber, I "prebook" a car from Uber, walk outside, and it's waiting.

And unlike Hackney drivers they never complain about taking me home "it's too short, I've been waiting 2 hours I deserve a trip to Leeds". And "No, cash only mate", and a receipt scribbled on a piece of paper that noone from HMRC would accept.

Obviously nobody saw how technology was going to develop but the app system is simply flagging a car down electronically. If the middle classes who paid for their degree's were told your degree is now worthless for your chosen employment they would be complaining too.

Most degrees are worthless for a chosen employment, they're used to get your "foot in the door", and more and more companies are downplaying them due to the ridiculous costs.

The second issue is Uber's business model is unsustainable in it's present form. The driver has to pay between 20-30 % of their earnings to Uber depending on the logarithm. They are demanding their drivers buy/lease eco friendly vehicles which are not cheap. After expenses a lot of drivers are not earning minimum wage and it's well known that they are claiming working tax credits.

That may be, and it's a concern. I've asked a few Uber drivers about it, one in Manchester said that he was earning 50% more than he earnt working for a local minicab firm. Another in Reading said the only downside was he had to pay tax on every penny - something that hackney drivers and minicab drivers don't do. I think this is overblown. There's nothing (apart from perhaps government regulation) stopping an Uber driver from driving for multiple minicab firms, all who can compete on service and price. Startup costs are pretty small. This keeps prices low, and if Uber don't pay enough for their drivers, they won't get any drivers.

The thing to worry about, and no driver I've spoken to has brought this up apart from a normal taxi driver in Singapore a few months ago, who accosted me out of the blue as we drove past Raffles - robot taxis will do everyone, taxi drivers and uber drivers alike - out of business. I said I don't expect it for 20 years in general, but it's coming.

Uber is registered as a Technology company in Holland because it gives them a preferential rate of tax of about 6%. Of course when they want an operators licence in our country they miraculously become a transport company but because all their income is funnelled off shore they don't pay tax anyway. They have paid no corporation tax to date and state they are not making any profit, (a company valued at 80 billion pounds and no profit!). So as well as hitting our treasury by not paying any tax on their earnings, there is the double whammy of the UK taxpayer subsiding their exploitative business model by topping up drivers wages.

I agree that tax avoidance by big business is a major problem, one that should be tackled, but isn't. Sadly Uber is just a tiny tip of the iceberg - it's not just the consumer brands like Starbucks, Vodafone, Amazon etc, but even companies like Astra-Zeneca. However, it's a global problem, and it's one of the things that changed my political leanings over the last 10 years. Force AZ to pay tax and they leave for greener pastures, taking a lot of high paid jobs with them. The country can't survive on a local economy alone, not at our level of expectation (2 kids, a 3 bed semi, free schooling, 40 hours a week, NHS and a new TV every few years).

In London we are considered an expensive option but we are consistently voted the best taxi service in the world by business travellers and tourists.

Customer satisfaction polls return something like 85% which the likes of John Lewis or Marks & Spencer's could only dream of, unfortunately our trade is not the most forward thinking because we are all single business's and we don't have the slick PR or money to fight it.

If 85% of your customers are happy, why are they leaving you in droves? Is it because people value cheap over good? (to be honest, I find Uber drivers far better than the average black cab driver). Same thing happened with planes, that's why it's really hard to get you coat in the overhead locker on a plane as everyone brings massive bags with them, rather than pay £5 to put them in the hold.

in 5 years there will be no trade and if there is it definitely won't be one where you earn a living wage.

That's the way almost every job will be going in the next 50 years. As technology removes localisation, in 50 years time you won't have Uber drivers. I doubt there will be train drivers either, certainly not tube drivers. Heck, robot taxis start trials in Japan NEXT YEAR, with service planned for 2020.

Obviously, I'm biased but Uber is the worst face of capitalism. There business is parasitic, they believe they can do as they wish and because of the size of there company nobody can stop them.

I don't think it's anywhere near the worst, but it's just a pebble in a massive avalanche that is rather concerning when viewed over time. Uber (in the UK) however, as far as I can tell, generally acts within the rules of a minicab firm. I'm not sure where this myth that Uber is "well-in with the guberment init" - smacks of conspiracy theory ravings. The sad fact is that global governments are powerless to stop the new-look globalised world even if they wanted to. Look at Syriza. For every people saying "I want £10 an hour" there are 50 people from the undeveloped world that will happily live 6 to a room and work for £5 an hour knowing they can send £300 a week home and have their families live like kings.

Fundamentally there's a global equalisation going on in the 21st century, and as part of the 1% (assuming like me you earn more than £22k a year), we're going to be losing out.

Didn't mean to ramble on so long, but can't wait to get out and join everyone in the rail industry.

I suspect much of it is off topic (and my reply even more so, I get like that :( ). I wish you luck and hope you make it to retirement before major changes in the industry.
 

district

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Used Uber once with a voucher after a night out in London to return to where I was staying in Forest Hill. I was in the warm car within minutes and it was nice to see London above ground for a change. The fare was a bargain as well, even without using the voucher.
 
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