Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Starmill]

I've still no explanation as to how SWT have got it so wrong (and how they're getting away with god forbid, actually promoting a grade the government wants rid of!) - on the one hand we have 'essential member of staff we wouldn't be without'; on the other we have 'not worth having, easily downgraded, good to have in a reduced form but not worth worrying about if not' not to mention 'we employ absolute legends' as opposed to 'we're going to take your car park permits off you because you don't want us to mess you about'.

Having met some of Stagecoach's safety team I'm inclined to believe their position is entirely genuine as well.

I thought it was ironic that they needed that poster. I saw it at Shepperton when I was making my return journey from Waterloo. You would have had no idea either train had a guard were it not for the poster...

 

[cjmillsnun]

I thought it was ironic that they needed that poster. I saw it at Shepperton when I was making my return journey from Waterloo. You would have had no idea either train had a guard were it not for the poster...

Not all SWT guards are commercial guards. Only commercial guards deal with revenue duties. :roll:
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SWT was so bad in the beginning they gave free travel to anywhere in the country, probably the best give-away in the history of British trains.

They were, but they took stock and learned from their mistakes. They turned it around into a very professionally run operation.

I sincerely hope GTR will do the same. Sadly I doubt they will.

 

[Agent_c]

Does it say they will be made redundant, or does it say they are at risk of redundancy? The latter tends to originate from a legally required statement of intent and doesn't necessarily mean all or even most actually will be laid off.

It said WILL, apparently it's required for legal reasons, or do the letter claimed.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Not all SWT guards are commercial guards. Only commercial guards deal with revenue duties.

Although IME the non-commercial guards make regular announcements over the pa especially if the train is formed of more than one unit. This may even be a company instruction. Completely wasted on those with headphones on of course....

 

[GB]

[NB Mod Note: Post moved from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=129815 ]


The question has to be asked wether having a second member of train crew on board may have made a difference here, and could the driver have been seen to earlier and in turn may have saved his life?

Other staff were with the driver in a matter of minutes. Signaller put out a PA announcement and medically trained passengers assisted.

Other than the extremely sad outcome it wen't about as good as it could have and I personally do not think DOO had any bearing on it...however we will never know for sure.

 

[ainsworth74]

It said WILL, apparently it's required for legal reasons, or do the letter claimed.

Must admit that's not something I've ever heard of before during a restructure. When an organisation I worked for was restructured the only people made redundant were those for whom there was no job in the new structure. Everyone else just moved from one role to their new role. Of course the restructure I was around for didn't involve a change in T&Cs so I rather suspect that's why their making everyone redundant in this case...

 

[SPADTrap]

Other staff were with the driver in a matter of minutes. Signaller put out a PA announcement and medically trained passengers assisted.

Other than the extremely sad outcome it wen't about as good as it could have and I personally do not think DOO had any bearing on it...however we will never know for sure.

How can medically trained passengers access a locked cab?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can medically trained passengers access a locked cab?

It is quite common for cabs on trains where the emergency exit path is via an end door or otherwise via the cab to have a "break glass" means of opening the cab door from the passenger saloon.

Perhaps this should be a requirement for DOO. Then again, the law of unintended consequences might come along - by making it easier to get in in that case, it's also easier for a threatening passenger to get in.

 

[Agent_c]

Other staff were with the driver in a matter of minutes. Signaller put out a PA announcement and medically trained passengers assisted.

Other than the extremely sad outcome it wen't about as good as it could have and I personally do not think DOO had any bearing on it...however we will never know for sure.

Is First Aid training included within the Guard's safety training?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is First Aid training included within the Guard's safety training?

I don't believe it is, though it is certainly my view that it should be. Indeed, I am very much in favour of training as many people as possible in First Aid, whatever customer-facing role they are in and whatever industry.

 

[LowLevel]

Is First Aid training included within the Guard's safety training?

Not exactly. Though they have charge of the first aid box and to be fair most stuff is fairly self explanatory. Last time I had someone on the verge of bleeding out on the train (oh the drama on the railway - someone with an ulcerated foot had done a good number on nicking a blood vessel of some sort and I found them when we rolled in in a massive puddle of blood on the platform ) it wasn't brain surgery to apply pressure with an appropriate bandage/dressing etc.

The key thing is being able to alert the emergency services where required or signaller if you have no phone signal and use the GSMR to report an accurate location, describe accurate symptoms and remain cool headed. A distinct advantage over the driver who has to choose between stopping the train or keeping driving. I just rang the driver, told him to stop at an appropriate location, told the signaller the same and got on with it while they worked on getting us there as expeditiously as possible. Of course if your driver is the ill one (it happens) you have to manage the lot. I've also had passengers fitting, a neck injury, someone presenting to me after falling down the stairs, a woman whose hip disintegrated while she was in her seat and nearly required a fitter to start taking the train to bits to get her out etc.

All in a days work!

 

[LBSCR Times]

Not exactly. Though they have charge of the first aid box and to be fair most stuff is fairly self explanatory. Last time I had someone on the verge of bleeding out on the train (oh the drama on the railway - someone with an ulcerated foot had done a good number on nicking a blood vessel of some sort and I found them when we rolled in in a massive puddle of blood on the platform ) it wasn't brain surgery to apply pressure with an appropriate bandage/dressing etc.

The key thing is being able to alert the emergency services where required or signaller if you have no phone signal and use the GSMR to report an accurate location, describe accurate symptoms and remain cool headed. A distinct advantage over the driver who has to choose between stopping the train or keeping driving. I just rang the driver, told him to stop at an appropriate location, told the signaller the same and got on with it while they worked on getting us there as expeditiously as possible. Of course if your driver is the ill one (it happens) you have to manage the lot. I've also had passengers fitting, a neck injury, someone presenting to me after falling down the stairs, a woman whose hip disintegrated while she was in her seat and nearly required a fitter to start taking the train to bits to get her out etc.

All in a days work!

These days its normally a passenger who calls the emergency services and then tells the traincrew what they've done and that they will be attending at the next station they're booked to stop at, irresepective of the location!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I don't believe it is, though it is certainly my view that it should be. Indeed, I am very much in favour of training as many people as possible in First Aid, whatever customer-facing role they are in and whatever industry.

No, we are not. However I am with you on this. We SHOULD be first aid trained. One of the reasons given however is litigation. Too many first aiders have been sued for apparently being in the wrong when trying to do the right thing by someone who needed the help.

Basically ambulance chasers looking for money have flicked it up for common sense once again!

 

[cjmillsnun]

I don't believe it is, though it is certainly my view that it should be. Indeed, I am very much in favour of training as many people as possible in First Aid, whatever customer-facing role they are in and whatever industry.

As a qualified first aider. I agree.
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No, we are not. However I am with you on this. We SHOULD be first aid trained. One of the reasons given however is litigation. Too many first aiders have been sued for apparently being in the wrong when trying to do the right thing by someone who needed the help.

Basically ambulance chasers looking for money have flicked it up for common sense once again!

Not one person who has sued has won, and a good samaritan law is now in force,

 

[Captain Chaos]

GWR is actually offering all front line staff at least the opportunity to do a First Aid course with St John's Ambulance service. Intend on putting my name down myself for it. All TOCS should do it IMHO.

 

[387star]

GWR is actually offering all front line staff at least the opportunity to do a First Aid course with St John's Ambulance service. Intend on putting my name down myself for it. All TOCS should do it IMHO.

yep very good to see and well worth doing

I volunteered with st johns the experience proved invaluable on several occasions

 

[Starmill]

Not all SWT guards are commercial guards. Only commercial guards deal with revenue duties. :roll:

Which, of course, is why they neither made any announcements or passed through the train. I'm not sure where revenue comes into it.

 

[D1009]

Other staff were with the driver in a matter of minutes. Signaller put out a PA announcement and medically trained passengers assisted.

Never heard of that if it was on the train. Can that be done on all DOO routes?

 

[ComUtoR]

Never heard of that if it was on the train. Can that be done on all DOO routes?

Its a feature of the GSMR. I believes its a requirement. I think you could also do it with CSR too.

 

[cjmillsnun]

GWR is actually offering all front line staff at least the opportunity to do a First Aid course with St John's Ambulance service. Intend on putting my name down myself for it. All TOCS should do it IMHO.

Kudos to GWR.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Its a feature of the GSMR. I believes its a requirement. I think you could also do it with CSR too.

That's correct. Happened to me at Guildford a few times on both CSR and GSM-R. Took me by surprise as I was in the middle of making an announcement myself when it happened! It was only minor disruption announcements. Fine for the most part. But not a facility to rely on for regular updates. Signallers are usually pretty busy when it all goes wrong!

 

[LowLevel]

These days its normally a passenger who calls the emergency services and then tells the traincrew what they've done and that they will be attending at the next station they're booked to stop at, irresepective of the location!

Never had that happen on my trains! That said I patrol them regularly so I tend to spot any problems - I seem to be unlucky and they follow me!! Only time someone else has gotten involved directly when was I had two revenue protection inspectors on board who had asked to do revenue duties who found someone fitting. Even then one called 999 while the other fetched me to ascertain where the emergency services should attend. Given the likelihood or not for example of an ambulance making it to somewhere like Edale on my routes route knowledge comes into it quite a lot. The next call in 25 minutes could be too late and the usual answer incidentally is carry on to Hazel Grove and stop out of course for Stepping Hill hospital

I agree though that guards and station supervisors should be first aid trained and it's good that GW are.

Signallers have been able to make announcements on DOO services for at least 20 years if not longer. As I mentioned earlier it's standard practice where a driver can't be contacted to make a coded announcement for any staff on board to go to the cab to investigate - something along the lines of 'apologies for the delay to your service today. Could any members of staff on board please make their way to the driver to provide customer assistance as required'. It's generally not a function on guard operated trains outside of the former Cab Secure Radio area though.

 

[68000]

Never heard of that if it was on the train. Can that be done on all DOO routes?

It is a feature of GSM-R and every DOO service will have the ability of the signaller speaking over the PA lines on the train (usually in response to a DSD activiation). Non-DOO services will have this facility if the NRN radio was connected to the PA at the time of roll out unless the TOC paid for the connection subsequently

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Not one person who has sued has won, and a good samaritan law is now in force,

One up for common sense then, although admittedly I wasn't aware of this. Night just pay a visit to St John Ambulance....

 

[313103]

Which, of course, is why they neither made any announcements or passed through the train. I'm not sure where revenue comes into it.

And what announcements would you like to hear, bearing in mind the general public don't listen to them 99.9% of the time. Why is it most of the complaints about Guards not doing announcements seem to come from Rail Enthusiasts, must like the sound of the Guards voice. As an aside when i use to make announcements on the train (of which no listened to anyway) i never use to say what my role is, i just gave the passengers the fact of either where we are, we we are going, and delays if any if what they are.

As for passing through the train, i wouldn't know what the reason would be to pass through the train, i also dont know if the guards could do that on the type of train that operates on that route and how long distances are between stations in time. I was often lucky to get from coach to the other between stations.

I suppose the idea of the poster to put down revenue was to distinguish the roles. I think on South West Trains they have what is called commercial guards on the main line, and non commercial guards on what is a metro type service (hopefully someone can correct me if i am wrong).

 

[Antman]

And what announcements would you like to hear, bearing in mind the general public don't listen to them 99.9% of the time. Why is it most of the complaints about Guards not doing announcements seem to come from Rail Enthusiasts, must like the sound of the Guards voice. As an aside when i use to make announcements on the train (of which no listened to anyway) i never use to say what my role is, i just gave the passengers the fact of either where we are, we we are going, and delays if any if what they are.

As for passing through the train, i wouldn't know what the reason would be to pass through the train, i also dont know if the guards could do that on the type of train that operates on that route and how long distances are between stations in time. I was often lucky to get from coach to the other between stations.

I suppose the idea of the poster to put down revenue was to distinguish the roles. I think on South West Trains they have what is called commercial guards on the main line, and non commercial guards on what is a metro type service (hopefully someone can correct me if i am wrong).

I would say 99.9% of passengers do listen to announcements, well the important ones anyway. I don't suppose many listen to repetitive announcements about their belongings, use of first class etc etc etc.

I was told by a member of Southern staff this morning that the only proposed change is that guards will no longer do the doors so will be able to walk through the train more as happens on the HS1 Javelins, no job losses and no reduction in pay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say 99.9% of passengers do listen to announcements, well the important ones anyway. I don't suppose many listen to repetitive announcements about their belongings, use of first class etc etc etc.

Indeed, in my view that wibble detracts from the value of the announcements that are actually important.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is the "continuity of service" statement that I ask you to further clarify and if possible, to cite any examples where what you state have actually occurred in the past.

I have seen numerous examples in my sector where people have been moved to "equivalent" jobs (i.e. the same pay band), only to find that they have been moved to the bottom of the pay band when they were towards the top of it. This has huge implications for these staff, especially now that our pension scheme is career average rather than final salary.

 

[HH]

I have seen numerous examples in my sector where people have been moved to "equivalent" jobs (i.e. the same pay band), only to find that they have been moved to the bottom of the pay band when they were towards the top of it. This has huge implications for these staff, especially now that our pension scheme is career average rather than final salary.

Yes, but that isn't about continuity of service. Have GTR actually detailed what will happen to members of staff, e.g. in meetings or by letter?

 

[Starmill]

And what announcements would you like to hear, bearing in mind the general public don't listen to them 99.9% of the time. Why is it most of the complaints about Guards not doing announcements seem to come from Rail Enthusiasts, must like the sound of the Guards voice. As an aside when i use to make announcements on the train (of which no listened to anyway) i never use to say what my role is, i just gave the passengers the fact of either where we are, we we are going, and delays if any if what they are.

As for passing through the train, i wouldn't know what the reason would be to pass through the train, i also dont know if the guards could do that on the type of train that operates on that route and how long distances are between stations in time. I was often lucky to get from coach to the other between stations.

I suppose the idea of the poster to put down revenue was to distinguish the roles. I think on South West Trains they have what is called commercial guards on the main line, and non commercial guards on what is a metro type service (hopefully someone can correct me if i am wrong).

You're right about there being a lot of non-commercial guards, but what does that have to do with the passenger? What you seem to be saying is it's a good use of guard's wages to pay for someone who doesn't check tickets, patrol the train and make themselves available to help people, or make any announcements. They are adding no value to the service for passengers, but we're still paying for them.