Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[FordFocus]

Seems to be attitude of the government at the minute. Junior Doctors potentially going on an indefinite strike. GTR, back by the DfT refusing to compromise on the guards grades and now teachers been mooted to strike over academies, something the government seem the want despite nobody asking for it.

 

[Domh245]

The 700s and 377 class are similar in respects, they are fitted with DOO onboard cameras, so what makes the 700s more safer?

The screens look much the same size as the 377s, although the camera might be better quality having been assembled in Krefeld! In practice, they would be just as safe as the 377s, but I expect it is a longer term game by GTR so that once the 700s are fully operational, they can get rid of station staff because the 700s (and derivatives) obviously can work without platform staff

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to be attitude of the government at the minute. Junior Doctors potentially going on an indefinite strike. GTR, back by the DfT refusing to compromise on the guards grades and now teachers been mooted to strike over academies, something the government seem the want despite nobody asking for it.

I really don't understand why the DfT is getting involved at all on the issue of guards. Surely they should select the best value credible bid for the franchise, and let the TOC deal with what staffing arrangements they happen to want?

 

[absolutelymilk]

I really don't understand why the DfT is getting involved at all on the issue of guards. Surely they should select the best value credible bid for the franchise, and let the TOC deal with what staffing arrangements they happen to want?

Because they want to extend DOO to other franchises to save money, which will be much more difficult if GTR are forced to back down in this case.

 

[Pumbaa]

I really don't understand why the DfT is getting involved at all on the issue of guards. Surely they should select the best value credible bid for the franchise, and let the TOC deal with what staffing arrangements they happen to want?

Because the cost of industrial action is likely to sink any business case in the current franchising model, and we'll never see any change.

Ergo DfT either have to mandate it, and work with bidders to deliver, or offer revenue support to bidders who choose to. Either way, there's a significant hit on the bottom line.

 

[455driver]

Quite. My original point being that drivers couldn't refuse to work with management Guards because they were Competent people.

There is a vast difference between having a tick in a box which says you are competent and actually being competent, unless one of the super hero managers can become properly competent in 3 days when it takes a mere mortal at least 6 months to do it!

 

[tony6499]

GTR platform & ticket office staff now being balloted over job losses etc

 

[hwl]

The screens look much the same size as the 377s, although the camera might be better quality having been assembled in Krefeld!

If I remember correctly the DOO cameras (and system) are made in the UK by the same company that makes stuff for Bombardier and Hitachi (And ANPR camera systems)

 

[Carlisle]

I would suggest driver ordinarily controls doors allowing OBS to sell more tickets, OBS remains safety trained to allow for evacuation and can dispatch if the driver feels circumstances warrant it.

To which the RMT will likely reply no, to suspend industrial action we want assurances they'll be guards on every train they're currently on that have full control of doors and dispatch procedure at all times

 

[Dave1987]

GTR platform & ticket office staff now being balloted over job losses etc

Wow this is all pretty unprecedented.

 

[Flamingo]

I really don't understand why the DfT is getting involved at all on the issue of guards. Surely they should select the best value credible bid for the franchise, and let the TOC deal with what staffing arrangements they happen to want?

This is the second summer in a row that TOC's have "independently" decided they want to introduce DOO, last summer it was FGW/GWR, which also started with a letter to staff phrased in a way to anger/frighten staff into striking, and a refusal to have meaningful negociations with the staff. Read back on the threads from last July/August for the same posts by much the same people.

One strike over DOO is unfortunate, two years / TOC's in a row? Hardly coincidence, especially given the DfT's history of micromanaging TOC's.

McNulty has to be justified somehow, and some Whitehall Mandrins are using the General Election last year as something to give them five years of a clear run to break the grade.

 

[tony6499]

This is the second summer in a row that TOC's have "independently" decided they want to introduce DOO, last summer it was FGW/GWR, which also started with a letter to staff phrased in a way to anger/frighten staff into striking, and a refusal to have meaningful negociations with the staff. Read back on the threads from last July/August for the same posts by much the same people.

One strike over DOO is unfortunate, two years / TOC's in a row? Hardly coincidence, especially given the DfT's history of micromanaging TOC's.

McNulty has to be justified somehow, and some Whitehall Mandrins are using the General Election last year as something to give them five years of a clear run to break the grade.

What happened in the end at FGW ?

 

[Flamingo]

What happened in the end at FGW ?

It was realised by the powers that be that there was going to be a huge time overrun on electrification and they had let the cat out of the bag too soon, so now they are issuing us all with new uniforms and pretending we are all friends again and nothing happened last summer.

Meanwhile, the DfT's focus has shifted to Southern...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It was realised by the powers that be that there was going to be a huge time overrun on electrification and they had let the cat out of the bag too soon, so now they are issuing us all with new uniforms and pretending we are all friends again and nothing happened last summer.

Meanwhile, the DfT's focus has shifted to Southern...

Then Northern

 

[Agent_c]

To which the RMT will likely reply no, to suspend industrial action we want assurances they'll be guards on every train they're currently on that have full control of doors and dispatch procedure at all times

I would give them the guarantee of being on each one, as a required safety role. With that assured, does it matter who routinely pushes the button if the guard/OBS remains qualified to do so, and can be called upon by the driver, where they feel it's necessary, to do it?

Would that be worth a strike?

 

[Flamingo]

Then Northern

That's three points of the compass covered

 

[ANorthernGuard]

That's three points of the compass covered

I am pretty sure the aim of the DaFT is to destroy the guards role once and for all. But then as they couldn't run a drunken escapade in a brewery they mess up and pressurise the TOC's into making savings. As GTR have pretty much wound up every member of staff from Platform Staff to Ticket Office Staff to TrainCrew how do they really see this ending well for them. Going against one grade you have a pretty good chance of winning long term. But MOST of the staff...either the MD is very very brave, Psychotic or stupid.

 

[74A]

Do we know if ASLEF is actually going to ballot over this issue. The last thing they put on their website is is 8 April from their website :-

As a result of this threat to impose 12 car DOO(P) working without agreement GTR has been informed of our intention to ballot our driver members employed on Southern and Gatwick Express for industrial action.
The formal balloting process will begin as soon as possible. If you have any questions, please contact your company council representatives.

But nothing further if they have actually started the ballot or not.

 

[tony6499]

It was realised by the powers that be that there was going to be a huge time overrun on electrification and they had let the cat out of the bag too soon, so now they are issuing us all with new uniforms and pretending we are all friends again and nothing happened last summer.

Meanwhile, the DfT's focus has shifted to Southern...

That's why I asked, I thought it had gone quiet. Thanks

 

[Carlisle]

I would give them the guarantee of being on each one, as a required safety role. With that assured, does it matter who routinely pushes the button if the guard/OBS remains qualified to do so, and can be called upon by the driver, where they feel it's necessary, to do it?

Would that be worth a strike?

That's unrealistic, if GTR have decided on this very major restructuring of on train staffing it has to be worthwile in the longer term increasing flexibility, efficiency etc, but the industry hasn't helped itself as having backed away from these sort of changes for so long it's given the unions a lot of confidence to put up a major fight

 

[Dave1987]

That's unrealistic, if GTR have decided on this very major restructuring of on train staffing it has to be worthwile in the longer term increasing flexibility, efficiency etc, but the industry hasn't helped itself as having backed away from these sort of changes for so long it's given the unions a lot of confidence to put up a major fight

I think its more fundamental than that though. It's well known that the station duties are the most high risk part of train operations as it is the time the railway has least control. 99% of the Joe public can board and alight trains no problem and do not put themselves at risk, but the railway has to account for that 1% to ensure that they don't hurt or kill themselves. A guard will always have a better view of the train than a driver does on in cab CCTV screens or platform CCTV screens/mirrors and a guard can watch the whole length of the train leave the platform safely. By getting rid of guards you might be increasing efficiency and flexibility but you are doing it at the cost of safety. TBH I my relatively short time on the railways I've never known the union to object to changes that are reasonable and safe.

 

[74A]

A guard will always have a better view of the train than a driver does on in cab CCTV screens or platform CCTV screens/mirrors and a guard can watch the whole length of the train leave the platform safely.

Will they ? At some South West Trains stations there is CCTV equipment provided for the guard due to the curvature of the platform. How is that different from the driver having CCTV.

 

[Dave1987]

Will they ? At some South West Trains stations there is CCTV equipment provided for the guard due to the curvature of the platform. How is that different from the driver having CCTV.

Because the guard usually has their head out of the cab window until the whole train has left the platform. After the driver has interlock and has checked the dispatch corridor his/her eyes are on the road ahead. Above 3mph the cab CCTV monitors switch off anyway to stop distraction.

 

[sarahj]

Today a train failed, and for protection etc the driver had to leave the train. He was away from the train for around 20-25 mins. Luckily there was also a fully trained member of staff on board (the conductor), to keep everyone informed and safe should anything happen.

I'm sure if the train had been DOO, the punters would not have started to panic, perhaps de-train themselves. Oh no!!!

 

[74A]

Because the guard usually has their head out of the cab window until the whole train has left the platform. After the driver has interlock and has checked the dispatch corridor his/her eyes are on the road ahead. Above 3mph the cab CCTV monitors switch off anyway to stop distraction.

Most of the new trains around have guard despatch from the train and unable to look out. Also many times I have seen guards despatch from the front of 10 coach trains.

 

[455driver]

Most of the new trains around have guard despatch from the train and unable to look out.

Which has been deliberately designed into the trains, it could just as easily be designed so the trains has openable windows that the guard can look out of!

Also many times I have seen guards despatch from the front of 10 coach trains.

And if there were openable windows the guard would still be able to watch the whole train out of the platform, utilizing their route knowledge to know where it was possible to do so!

 

[68000]

Today a train failed, and for protection etc the driver had to leave the train. He was away from the train for around 20-25 mins. Luckily there was also a fully trained member of staff on board (the conductor), to keep everyone informed and safe should anything happen.

I'm sure if the train had been DOO, the punters would not have started to panic, perhaps de-train themselves. Oh no!!!

Why did the driver have to leave for protection?

 

[WCMLaddict]

To lay down assistance protection as per rule book.

 

[the sniper]

Why did the driver have to leave for protection?

GSM-R can't solve this problem, sorry...

 

[68000]

GSM-R can't solve this problem, sorry...

So what was the problem?