Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[FordFocus]

ASLEF are opposed to monitors staying on above 3mph. Too much distraction and the increased risk of starting against a red signal on platforms.

Stagecoach hasn't got an amazing reputation apart from keeping their fleets clean. When they won the South West franchise they offered redundancy to drivers to save costs. Presumably then run services on overtime to save cash. What happened was them nearly losing the franchise as too many accepted redundancy, they miscalculated how many drivers were needed to run the basic service and that the training school couldn't get drivers out quick enough. In the end I believe they offered the redundant drivers a sum of money to come back for several months to cover trains.

Stagecoach are also known to cut contributions to the pension funds, despite advice from the government not to. EMT drivers had strike action over this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18184455

 

[Robertj21a]

I'd be interested to know why you think my comment about them being ruthless is crazy,and also your inference that being ruthless is not mutually compatible with being well managed and professional?

Stagecoach has a deserved reputation among commentators and industry professionals for being ruthless. I suggest you read Christian Woolmar's book. Do you remember Darlington or the SWT guards dispute where they drafted in buses and drivers from as far afield as Scotland?

Time to remove the rose inted spectacles. The only reason they're currently being benevolent on SWT is that they can afford to be.

I'm puzzled. Are you suggesting that Stagecoach shouldn't have done everything possible to maintain services during a dispute ? - why shouldn't they draft staff in from 'as far as Scotland'?. That's what makes them so different to most other operators - they make far more effort.

I wish there were more operators like Stagecoach, so that we could get better quality management running the various trains (and buses) across the country.

 

[swt_passenger]

Stagecoach hasn't got an amazing reputation apart from keeping their fleets clean. When they won the South West franchise they offered redundancy to drivers to save costs. Presumably then run services on overtime to save cash. What happened was them nearly losing the franchise as too many accepted redundancy, they miscalculated how many drivers were needed to run the basic service and that the training school couldn't get drivers out quick enough.

That's over 20years ago now. But why not just keep bringing it up as though it was yesterday. Perhaps even they have realised it was a bit of a cockup...

 

[DarloRich]

I'm puzzled. Are you suggesting that Stagecoach shouldn't have done everything possible to maintain services during a dispute ? - why shouldn't they draft staff in from 'as far as Scotland'?. That's what makes them so different to most other operators - they make far more effort.

I wish there were more operators like Stagecoach, so that we could get better quality management running the various trains (and buses) across the country.

there was no dispute in Darlington prior to Stagecoach moving in with their free bus travel. Why not do some reading up?

 

[Squonk]

5mph for monitor cut-off seems very low (but I'm a passenger with no relevant knowledge). 20mph or, dare I say it, GPS interlock might be better?

On Southern the internal monitors go off as soon as a power notch is selected and before the hill start is released, so the monitors go blank a few seconds before the train starts to move, just one of the imperfections in this wonderful so called "safe for 25 years" DOO system that your average southern train driver has to negotiate on a daily basis !!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, DOO is not safe, never has been, never will be !!

 

[LowLevel]

I'm puzzled. Are you suggesting that Stagecoach shouldn't have done everything possible to maintain services during a dispute ? - why shouldn't they draft staff in from 'as far as Scotland'?. That's what makes them so different to most other operators - they make far more effort.

I wish there were more operators like Stagecoach, so that we could get better quality management running the various trains (and buses) across the country.

Without wishing to say too much, the positions these temporary 'guards' are sourced from by various train operating companies are eclectic to say the least (think things like HR) and there may or may not have been a few interesting issues on the occasions they were wheeled out, and at one point the regulator may or may not have sent it's inspectors out to do spot checks on guard's competency due to a strange and sudden increase in reportable operational incidents.

I do seem to recall an incident at a company that I won't name for example whereby a 'guard' in the form of a manager from a different company had been provided and was noted by the driver to be announcing station stops in the wrong order. The driver refused to take the train further without documented evidence of route knowledge and said 'guard' mysteriously disappeared, never to be seen again.

So it's up to you how far you wish to trust these individuals.

Please note I make no claim to necessarily be referring to a Stagecoach Group company in this post, merely a generic selection of incidents during industrial disputes - all companies do this to one extent or another and I'm surprised the RMT are making much of it - it's old news and always has been. A manager friend of mine has been a guard on numerous different routes operated by sister companies at the same time.

 

[Robertj21a]

there was no dispute in Darlington prior to Stagecoach moving in with their free bus travel. Why not do some reading up?

I don't have to do any reading up, thank you. I'm talking about the SWT guards dispute.

Darlington wasn't one of Brian Souter's better episodes but, if I recall correctly, it was the drivers from Darlington who wanted to join Busways rather than United Auto who, I think, were already competing in the town.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't have to do any reading up, thank you. I'm talking about the SWT guards dispute.

Darlington wasn't one of Brian Souter's better episodes but, if I recall correctly, it was the drivers from Darlington who wanted to join Busways rather than United Auto who, I think, were already competing in the town.

Yorkshire Traction i believe. United were prohibited from bidding for DTC due to competition commission fears.

 

[sarahj]

Anyway, more news. It seems Southern are taking ASLEF to court again, this time over the ballot about DOO. I'm not sure the details, but it looks to come round to the old Gatwick Express Ticket issue, what is Southern, is it GTR, is it GatEX, is it Thameslink. Anyway, court date on Tuesday, has been mentioned on the radio.

 

[FordFocus]

That's over 20years ago now. But why not just keep bringing it up as though it was yesterday. Perhaps even they have realised it was a bit of a cockup...

Nice to see you've missed my other point about there been a more recent dispute with EMT though

 

[HLE]

Anyway, more news. It seems Southern are taking ASLEF to court again, this time over the ballot about DOO. I'm not sure the details, but it looks to come round to the old Gatwick Express Ticket issue, what is Southern, is it GTR, is it GatEX, is it Thameslink. Anyway, court date on Tuesday, has been mentioned on the radio.

They really aren't giving up are they.

 

[ComUtoR]

So the previous arguments about DOO on Thameslink, Southern etc means it should be extended to Gatwick Express and across all stations/units and brands is different when you ballot ?

Will this come down to each brand having separate terms and conditions so should be balloted individually ?

This really is very very messy and a legal minefield. If GTR succeed then you could argue that DOO should be implemented across the entire country based on Drivers doing it somewhere else :/ You could potentially argue that every Govia company can run DOO (now and in the future)

 

[Class377/5]

So the previous arguments about DOO on Thameslink, Southern etc means it should be extended to Gatwick Express and across all stations/units and brands is different when you ballot ?

Will this come down to each brand having separate terms and conditions so should be balloted individually ?

This really is very very messy and a legal minefield. If GTR succeed then you could argue that DOO should be implemented across the entire country based on Drivers doing it somewhere else :/ You could potentially argue that every Govia company can run DOO (now and in the future)

The drivers union has already made agreements for 12 car DOO on the same route as GatEx between Victoria and Brighton for Thameslink drivers using the same stock as GatEx uses. The simple question here is why if TL drivers can do it, why can't GatEx? Especially as the latter is often not a stopping service so has less risk!

 

[infobleep]

The drivers union has already made agreements for 12 car DOO on the same route as GatEx between Victoria and Brighton for Thameslink drivers using the same stock as GatEx uses. The simple question here is why if TL drivers can do it, why can't GatEx? Especially as the latter is often not a stopping service so has less risk!

Except in this case it's guards not drivers. Guards don't work a service without guards or drivers.

Could this court ruling rule on brands and TOCs?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[HLE]

So the previous arguments about DOO on Thameslink, Southern etc means it should be extended to Gatwick Express and across all stations/units and brands is different when you ballot ?

Will this come down to each brand having separate terms and conditions so should be balloted individually ?

This really is very very messy and a legal minefield. If GTR succeed then you could argue that DOO should be implemented across the entire country based on Drivers doing it somewhere else :/ You could potentially argue that every Govia company can run DOO (now and in the future)

Oh 'eck.....

 

[Squonk]

The drivers union has already made agreements for 12 car DOO on the same route as GatEx between Victoria and Brighton for Thameslink drivers using the same stock as GatEx uses. The simple question here is why if TL drivers can do it, why can't GatEx? Especially as the latter is often not a stopping service so has less risk!

The ASLEF ballot is for :- "Trade dispute between ASLEF and GTR Southern/Gatwick Express concerning the extension of driver only operation(passenger) without the agreement of ASLEF and contrary to our established procedures and all other matters arising out of and in consequence of the dispute"

no mention of 12 cars there.

 

[Agent_c]

The ASLEF ballot is for :- "Trade dispute between ASLEF and GTR Southern/Gatwick Express concerning the extension of driver only operation(passenger) without the agreement of ASLEF and contrary to our established procedures and all other matters arising out of and in consequence of the dispute"

no mention of 12 cars there.

That would be the "contrary to established procedure" bit.

 

[BRblue]

Latest from RMT website,

RMT Press Office

RMT hits back at Southern's "deliberate campaign of misinformation" over staff shortages as more services are cancelled today

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

"There has been a disgraceful campaign of misinformation by GTR over the staffing crisis on Southern Trains that has led to more services being cancelled today.‎ The blame for those cancellations lies solely with GTR and is down to their continued mismanagement of this franchise.

"The hard fact is that this company does not employ enough staff to fill the rosters and is carrying significant levels of vacancies. They do that because it saves them money and allows them to pump up the profits which can then be shipped across the Channel to subsidise their operations in France.

“For Southern/GTR to try and turn the blame for this staffing crisis onto the union is ludicrous when the public can see clearly that the fault lies squarely with this penny-pinching outfit who will stop at nothing to fleece this franchise, and its passengers, for every penny that they can.

‎"Despite flouting regulations, and once again compromising the safety of their passengers, by drafting in a stage army ‎of poorly-trained volunteers to do safety critical jobs the strike was rock solid with the impact exactly the same as the last action. Instead of ramping up the union bashing in the drive to milk this franchise for millions of pounds to subsidise their French operations at the expense of British fare payers, GTR should get round the table now for serious talks."

 

[Carlisle]

without the agreement of ASLEF .

How do you propose GTR attempt to seek an agreement with a union that's already said many times publicly it won't accept any more DOO/DCD?

 

[ComUtoR]

How do you propose GTR attempt to seek an agreement with a union that's already said many times publicly it won't accept any more DOO/DCD?

So ASLEF won't negotiate with GTR and GTR won't negotiate with the RMT. Nobody agrees and everyone suffers. Sounds like the railway.

 

[Class377/5]

Except in this case it's guards not drivers. Guards don't work a service without guards or drivers.

Could this court ruling rule on brands and TOCs?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

But the points been made. Trains can run without a guard and several unions have agreed to this.

The ASLEF ballot is for :- "Trade dispute between ASLEF and GTR Southern/Gatwick Express concerning the extension of driver only operation(passenger) without the agreement of ASLEF and contrary to our established procedures and all other matters arising out of and in consequence of the dispute"

no mention of 12 cars there.

ASLEF has agreed for an identical role over identical route using identical stock means any case upon reaching court will be thrown out unless the Southern/GatEx drivers are unable to meet the requirements of Thameslink drivers who ASLEF has said can work 12 car DOO without issue?

 

[bengley]

But the points been made. Trains can run without a guard and several unions have agreed to this.



ASLEF has agreed for an identical role over identical route using identical stock means any case upon reaching court will be thrown out unless the Southern/GatEx drivers are unable to meet the requirements of Thameslink drivers who ASLEF has said can work 12 car DOO without issue?

Thameslink do not operate trains to Victoria via Balham though, so it's not the same route.

 

[Carlisle]

So ASLEF won't negotiate with GTR and GTR won't negotiate with the RMT. Nobody agrees and everyone suffers. Sounds like the railway.

Yes you absolutely right there

 

[Mag_seven]

I hope you booked all your journeys 24 hours in advance?

What's that got to do with the price of fish?

 

[cjmillsnun]

What's that got to do with the price of fish?

Because, with a guard, those who need assistance to board or alight a train can get it there and then, even at unstaffed stations. This can't happen on DOO, so they have to make arrangements 24 hours in advance.

 

[Robertj21a]

Latest from RMT website,

RMT Press Office

RMT hits back at Southern's "deliberate campaign of misinformation" over staff shortages as more services are cancelled today

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

"There has been a disgraceful campaign of misinformation by GTR over the staffing crisis on Southern Trains that has led to more services being cancelled today.‎ The blame for those cancellations lies solely with GTR and is down to their continued mismanagement of this franchise.

"The hard fact is that this company does not employ enough staff to fill the rosters and is carrying significant levels of vacancies. They do that because it saves them money and allows them to pump up the profits which can then be shipped across the Channel to subsidise their operations in France.

“For Southern/GTR to try and turn the blame for this staffing crisis onto the union is ludicrous when the public can see clearly that the fault lies squarely with this penny-pinching outfit who will stop at nothing to fleece this franchise, and its passengers, for every penny that they can.

‎"Despite flouting regulations, and once again compromising the safety of their passengers, by drafting in a stage army ‎of poorly-trained volunteers to do safety critical jobs the strike was rock solid with the impact exactly the same as the last action. Instead of ramping up the union bashing in the drive to milk this franchise for millions of pounds to subsidise their French operations at the expense of British fare payers, GTR should get round the table now for serious talks."

Sorry, but in my humble opinion, this is totally the wrong way to go about it if the whole point is to 'correct' public opinion. It's just the same old endless repetition about profits, France, penny-pinching etc...........

The public will just think '........what else would you expect a Trade Union to say'. I'm sure it would be far more understood if the RMT was to better highlight the key safety concerns, the lack of any other suitably-trained staff on board, the significantly larger number of people now travelling on the railways and the increased levels of anti-social behaviour....etc etc.

 

[Squonk]

But the points been made. Trains can run without a guard and several unions have agreed to this.



ASLEF has agreed for an identical role over identical route using identical stock means any case upon reaching court will be thrown out unless the Southern/GatEx drivers are unable to meet the requirements of Thameslink drivers who ASLEF has said can work 12 car DOO without issue?

You seem to have a fixation with Thameslink & 12 cars,

This is in regard to ANY extension of DOO without consultation with Aslef, which would come about on ALL routes currently utilising Conductors when their role is changed to OBS.

 

[infobleep]

Latest from RMT website,

RMT Press Office

RMT hits back at Southern's "deliberate campaign of misinformation" over staff shortages as more services are cancelled today

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

"There has been a disgraceful campaign of misinformation by GTR over the staffing crisis on Southern Trains that has led to more services being cancelled today.‎ The blame for those cancellations lies solely with GTR and is down to their continued mismanagement of this franchise.

"The hard fact is that this company does not employ enough staff to fill the rosters and is carrying significant levels of vacancies. They do that because it saves them money and allows them to pump up the profits which can then be shipped across the Channel to subsidise their operations in France.

“For Southern/GTR to try and turn the blame for this staffing crisis onto the union is ludicrous when the public can see clearly that the fault lies squarely with this penny-pinching outfit who will stop at nothing to fleece this franchise, and its passengers, for every penny that they can.

‎"Despite flouting regulations, and once again compromising the safety of their passengers, by drafting in a stage army ‎of poorly-trained volunteers to do safety critical jobs the strike was rock solid with the impact exactly the same as the last action. Instead of ramping up the union bashing in the drive to milk this franchise for millions of pounds to subsidise their French operations at the expense of British fare payers, GTR should get round the table now for serious talks."

I wish they would cut the money going to the French bit. Commuters don't care about that. The rest fine but that bit personally doesn't do them any favours in my opinion. It puts me off to some extent and I support the strike.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the points been made. Trains can run without a guard and several unions have agreed to this.



ASLEF has agreed for an identical role over identical route using identical stock means any case upon reaching court will be thrown out unless the Southern/GatEx drivers are unable to meet the requirements of Thameslink drivers who ASLEF has said can work 12 car DOO without issue?

Does the several. unions include ASLEF?

If not it would be like say Fred has a agreed a new contract so you have accepted this contract even though Fred didn't accept it for you.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Class377/5]

You seem to have a fixation with Thameslink & 12 cars,

This is in regard to ANY extension of DOO without consultation with Aslef, which would come about on ALL routes currently utilising Conductors when their role is changed to OBS.

Its agreed with the union as a safe method of workings so its very very relevant point.

ALSEF has already agreed to 12 car workings on this route with Thameslink so why the hell are Southern/GatEx drivers so special? No-one has yet come up with a actual reason on this point.

ASLEF is trying to stop the use of 12 car DOO on a route it's already cleared for 12 car DOO. Thameslink is part of the GTR operation so GTR is quite right to show they have agreement with one side of the company. The fact the stock is identical destroys the unions idea that its different. Especially as Thameslink services stop more which increases the risk.

The question is allowing all trains on the route to operate in DOO actually an extension? It's already a DOO authorised route for 12 car 377/387/700 so is a different brand of driver (and that's all difference Southern/GatEx and Thameslink drivers now they all are working for the same employer) really valid justification for not running 12 cars DOO ?

Thameslink do not operate trains to Victoria via Balham though, so it's not the same route.

Thameslink is cleared to operate 12 car DOO services via Balham to Victoria using 377/387/700 stock. The union has agreed this.

The only actual difference between Thameslink and Southern/GatEx 12 car services is a slight software change that means the service announces as the correct TOC (that's why the 1Bxx using Southern 377 state it's a Southern service) and a guard. From a drivers point of view there is no difference in methods of operation bar dispatch process.

 

[ComUtoR]

so is a different brand of driver (and that's all difference Southern/GatEx and Thameslink drivers now they all are working for the same employer) really valid justification for not running 12 cars DOO ?

They have different contracts. This can be seen as a contractual dispute.

I don't believe the same employer argument stacks up. By that logic if they took over another TOC then they could automatically change it to DOO. My employer runs both DOO and Guards but it is widely accepted that DOO will not and should be extended further. All of us drive 12 cars so why does one part of the company have Guards and the others don't ?

The argument can also be flipped on its head. Southern/GatEx run with Guards so why shouldn't Thameslink ? Why is the argument to extend DOO further rather than extend Guards further ?