EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[anme]

There's another way to look at it.

The strongest remain areas are also those where people *feel* as if they have a reasonable say in local decision making. Scotland has its parliament and a fair degree of automony. London has an elected mayor with enough authority to make a difference in areas that Londoners care about. Northern Ireland is slightly different but after putting up with direct rule from Westminster during the troubles now has home rule at Stormont and despite occasional "tribal" difficulties it does appear that most people are satisfied with the arrangement.

Somewhat different in the leave areas. The Welsh have an assembly with restricted powers and many members who seem to be disconnected with the wishes of the people, particularly in Mid and North Wales. And in the English regions there is a very strong feeling of being ignored by Westminster with all the focus being on London.

Ironically the Maastricht Treaty contained references to the concept of subsidiarity, ie the devolution of decision making to the most local area appropriate to the issue being considered. Most European countries are strong proponents of this. But the Major government, and its successors, have as good as ignored this as much as possible, in particular by continuing the strangling of local authority funding begun by Thatcher. The Scottish independence referendum lead subsequently to calls for much more English devolution but so far this has made little progress.

The apparent dislike of foreigners being expressed in leave areas is just the traditional scapegoating that so often appears during times of economic gloom and is not unique to this country.

I'm a strong supporter of devolution, with decisions being taken at the lowest sensible level. The whole point of the EU is that some decisions are better taken at European level than at national level. The UK is one of the most centralised countries in Europe.

The Blair government planned regional assemblies in England. However, voters in the North East rejected the idea in the referendum by 77% - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England_devolution_referendums,_2004 - another really really stupid referendum result. Plans for other assemblies were cancelled.

I think it is valid to note that actual experience of migrants seems unlikely to have increased the leave vote, because the areas where people voted leave were generally the areas with the fewest migrants.

 

[northwichcat]

Very sensible post. Purely by the fact the Boris and Gove expected Cameron to carry on and negotiate our exit shows the naivety. Not surprised Cameron isn't interested in negotiating something he doesn't believe in. Where is the strategy from Vote Leave? Surely they would be banging the drum to get Article 50 served straight away? Maybe they never thought they would actually win so are caught in the headlights now they have got their way?

Cameron said he'd continue whatever the result prior to the referendum but really he needed to say that, otherwise people might have voted leave because they wanted a change in PM opposed to wanting to leave the EU.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Stop being such a drama queen.

Markets are volatile. The pound and FTSE had a downturn, but that's not the same thing as a 2008-style economic collapse. It's scandalous hyperbole to imply otherwise.

So get a effing grip, and let's wait to see the real world results.

The pound and the FTSE. If only that was it. This has had a global impact. The Dow tanked on the news, as have the European and Asian markets. This was also a bigger drop than 2008. We shall see what happens on Monday.

 

[anme]

The pound and the FTSE. If only that was it. This has had a global impact. The Dow tanked on the news, as have the European and Asian markets. This was also a bigger drop than 2008. We shall see what happens on Monday.

I don't think any leave supporter cares at all about what happens in European, US or Asian markets. Why would they?

 

[Abpj17]

I don't think any leave supporter cares at all about what happens in European, US or Asian markets. Why would they?

Because there pensions will be invested in those markets as well, and because if those economies are weaker, it will be harder to export UK goods and services there. (Tho I think you get that

 

[Phil.]

Not really - you just expect people to take it lying down when an entire generation feels like it's had its interests ruined yet again by a generation that won't bear the consequences.

Got any plans going forward, or are you just another headless turkey who voted for Christmas?

Ah, another one who believes in democracy right up until the point that a vote doesn't go the way he wanted it to go. It's almost inevitable how the great unwashed have taken to the streets to protest about a democratic vote not going their way again.
I voted out, virtually all of Cornwall voted out. Just like the Newlyn fishermen who sailed up the Thames to Westminster to try and make politicians listen to them because thus far they haven't and were greeted by a boatload of yobs representing the remain lot who were led by Geldof, an Irish middle class tax dodging millionaire. Summed it up beautifully, workers being treated like morons by the privileged. Perhaps you might wonder why the people of Doncaster, Middlesborough and Hartlepool voted out. This is a victory for the people of Britain who are fed up with being treated like imbeciles by the in-for-it-for-the-money money grubbers of all political persuasions in Westminster.

 

[jon0844]

I'm a strong supporter of devolution, with decisions being taken at the lowest sensible level. The whole point of the EU is that some decisions are better taken at European level than at national level. The UK is one of the most centralised countries in Europe.

The Blair government planned regional assemblies in England. However, voters in the North East rejected the idea in the referendum by 77% - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England_devolution_referendums,_2004 - another really really stupid referendum result. Plans for other assemblies were cancelled.

I think it is valid to note that actual experience of migrants seems unlikely to have increased the leave vote, because the areas where people voted leave were generally the areas with the fewest migrants.

People who have seen foreign people, and accepted different languages being spoken, and different coloured faces in school etc are less likely to have the opinions held by those in smaller towns and villages, where it's perhaps a bit more of a shock.

No wonder London didn't really have an issue, plus of course a lot of British citizens may be of foreign descent so would be less likely to have the same 'round em up and send them home' mentality.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Ah, another one who believes in democracy right up until the point that a vote doesn't go the way he wanted it to go. It's almost inevitable how the great unwashed have taken to the streets to protest about a democratic vote not going their way again.
I voted out, virtually all of Cornwall voted out. Just like the Newlyn fishermen who sailed up the Thames to Westminster to try and make politicians listen to them because thus far they haven't and were greeted by a boatload of yobs representing the remain lot who were led by Geldof, an Irish middle class tax dodging millionaire. Summed it up beautifully, workers being treated like morons by the privileged. Perhaps you might wonder why the people of Doncaster, Middlesborough and Hartlepool voted out. This is a victory for the people of Britain who are fed up with being treated like imbeciles by the in-for-it-for-the-money money grubbers of all political persuasions in Westminster.

How's that funding guarantee going?

 

[Harbornite]

Ah, another one who believes in democracy right up until the point that a vote doesn't go the way he wanted it to go. It's almost inevitable how the great unwashed have taken to the streets to protest about a democratic vote not going their way again.
I voted out, virtually all of Cornwall voted out. Just like the Newlyn fishermen who sailed up the Thames to Westminster to try and make politicians listen to them because thus far they haven't and were greeted by a boatload of yobs representing the remain lot who were led by Geldof, an Irish middle class tax dodging millionaire. Summed it up beautifully, workers being treated like morons by the privileged. Perhaps you might wonder why the people of Doncaster, Middlesborough and Hartlepool voted out. This is a victory for the people of Britain who are fed up with being treated like imbeciles by the in-for-it-for-the-money money grubbers of all political persuasions in Westminster.

Ah, another one who believes in democracy until someone challenges their point of view. Some of you Brexit brexit lot are an odd bunch, some of you don't know what the EU and others don't want to recognize the fact that some people might just want to remain in the EU. You refer to the people, yet you forget that 48% of us voted to remain. On another note, remind me how much funding Cornwall got from the EU?

 

[anme]

Ah, another one who believes in democracy right up until the point that a vote doesn't go the way he wanted it to go.

Are you aware of the concept of free speech?

It's almost inevitable how the great unwashed have taken to the streets to protest about a democratic vote not going their way again.
I voted out, virtually all of Cornwall voted out. Just like the Newlyn fishermen who sailed up the Thames to Westminster to try and make politicians listen to them because thus far they haven't and were greeted by a boatload of yobs representing the remain lot who were led by Geldof, an Irish middle class tax dodging millionaire. Summed it up beautifully, workers being treated like morons by the privileged. Perhaps you might wonder why the people of Doncaster, Middlesborough and Hartlepool voted out. This is a victory for the people of Britain who are fed up with being treated like imbeciles by the in-for-it-for-the-money money grubbers of all political persuasions in Westminster.

Yeah. Good luck to the people of Doncaster, Middlesborough (sic) and Hartlepool when the EU funds are withdrawn, Scotland leave and the one party Tory government starts in England and Wales. Imagine Michael Gove, stamping on a human face for all eternity. Because that's what you're going to get. But I'm sure you thought of that before you voted leave, right?

BTW, 43.5% of people in Cornwall voted to remain. So it's not very accurate to say that "virtually all of Cornwall voted out", but then facts are not really a feature of this discussion, are they?

 

[cjmillsnun]

No what I wanted is as the original aims of the EEC. A trade organisations with some laws/standards that made it easier to trade. I want easy movement between countries and the choice that, in certain circumstances, movement is restricted. I want us to have the choice to be able to bail out the steel industry and not being told you can't do that when it is obvious other EU countries are all in but name.

You mean the bill that the EU wanted to pass that would've imposed tariffs on Chinese steel that Cameron decided to turn down? That one??

 

[anme]

You mean the bill that the EU wanted to pass that would've imposed tariffs on Chinese steel that Cameron decided to turn down? That one??

Basing your opinions on facts rather than patriotism is an act of treachery. Rule Britannia!

 

[Harbornite]

I think the EU's attempts to impose tarrifs on Chinese steel may have been forgotten by the more ignorant voters who live in Britain's steel communities.

 

[Muttley]

What I now cannot stand though is that nobody on the leave side had a clear plan for the action to take in the event on a vote to leave .

Why ?
It's got nothing to do with the Leave campaigners.
The government gave the people two choices, and it now appears have done no planning should one of those be chosen.
That is reckless, that is stupid, that is the government's fault, not the voters.
It also speaks volumes of CMD and his not a quitter rhetoric.

 

[jon0844]

Leave people now saying there's no rush and to effectively let the EU suffer so we get the upper hand? Seems more like buying time, as they argue amongst themselves as to who takes on the role of negotiating.

 

[anme]

Why ?
It's got nothing to do with the Leave campaigners.
The government gave the people two choices, and it now appears have done no planning should one of those be chosen.
That is reckless, that is stupid, that is the government's fault, not the voters.
It also speaks volumes of CMD and his not a quitter rhetoric.

What do YOU think should happen now? EEA membership? Close all the borders and pretend it's 1875? Ask Putin to take over? Please tell us!

You MUST have thought about it, because voting leave without thinking about it would be totally moronic, right?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Ah, another one who believes in democracy right up until the point that a vote doesn't go the way he wanted it to go. It's almost inevitable how the great unwashed have taken to the streets to protest about a democratic vote not going their way again.
I voted out, virtually all of Cornwall voted out. Just like the Newlyn fishermen who sailed up the Thames to Westminster to try and make politicians listen to them because thus far they haven't and were greeted by a boatload of yobs representing the remain lot who were led by Geldof, an Irish middle class tax dodging millionaire. Summed it up beautifully, workers being treated like morons by the privileged. Perhaps you might wonder why the people of Doncaster, Middlesborough and Hartlepool voted out. This is a victory for the people of Britain who are fed up with being treated like imbeciles by the in-for-it-for-the-money money grubbers of all political persuasions in Westminster.

Farage, a former Stockbroker from Surrey who was a member of the EU fishing committee and did naff all about the issue of discards apart from try and use it as a tool to attack the EU (he only bothered to attend 1 meeting out of 42!). Yet a privilaged liberal TV chef (Hugh Fearnley-Wittingstall) on hearing of the discard policy and how fishermen were having to throw back dead, but otherwise good fish, mounted a campaign, got signatures on a petition and got the law changed!

Gove, a Public Schoolboy who did more damage to the education system in the UK than any education secretary since the 70s, despite OFSTED and teachers saying what he was doing was stupid

Boris, pretty much the same education as Cameron and a member of the Bullingdon Club. Wants a driverless underground and responsible for the closure of every LUL ticket office.

Iain Duncan Smith, responsible for picking on the most vulnerable in society since 2005.

Yeah they'll protect the workers won't they.

 

[anme]

Leave people now saying there's no rush and to effectively let the EU suffer so we get the upper hand? Seems more like buying time, as they argue amongst themselves as to who takes on the role of negotiating.

Strange how leave people are suddenly so keen to stay in the EU. I assume it's because it's so obviously in our interests to be in the EU that they want to keep it for as long as possible, right? Perhaps we can delay leaving by say 70-80 years? Let's not destroy our country any sooner than needed!

 

[Muttley]

What do YOU think should happen now? EEA membership? Close all the borders and pretend it's 1875? Ask Putin to take over? Please tell us!

You MUST have thought about it, because voting leave without thinking about it would be totally moronic, right?

You've spent too much time with Terry.
It's of no relevance what i think should happen.

 

[Howardh]

It's now a moral dielemma for the MP's.

Brexit haven't a plan - think most will agree with that; and it's very possible that leaving the EU >...OK OK it might be the greatest thing since clingfilm > could (a) be an economic disaster and (b) decimate the Union, should they act in the best interests of the country, not take the risk and vote against the referendum?
The Scot's MPs can vote against it knowing their seat is safe. Can 275 other MP's find the bottle, and get the eternal gratitude of one Mr. B. Johnson??

 

[Harbornite]

It's of no relevance what i think should happen.

Well that is very true but you should have still done some research before casting your vote. Quite a few Brexiters failed to do this and are now regretting their vote.

 

[DelayRepay]

Leave people now saying there's no rush and to effectively let the EU suffer so we get the upper hand? Seems more like buying time, as they argue amongst themselves as to who takes on the role of negotiating.

Surely we should leave as quickly as possible? After all, every week's delay is another £350m down the drain that could be spent on the NHS. The sooner we can stop those pesky migrants from coming over here and stealing our jobs, council houses and social security payment. Maybe we can even start deporting people in time for Christmas.

I'm surprised everyone is saying there is no rush when the benefits of leaving are clear for all to see.

 

[anme]

You've spent too much time with Terry.
It's of no relevance what i think should happen.

Are you seriously saying that you have no opinion on what happens next? How did you know that leaving was a better option if you didn't consider the alternatives to EU membership?

Surely you have an opinion on EEA membership (meaning free movement of people and goods would continue)? Would this satisfy you?

Genuine question - who's Terry?

 

[DelayRepay]

Why ?
It's got nothing to do with the Leave campaigners.
The government gave the people two choices, and it now appears have done no planning should one of those be chosen.
That is reckless, that is stupid, that is the government's fault, not the voters.
It also speaks volumes of CMD and his not a quitter rhetoric.

How on earth can you blame the government, when their policy was that leaving would be a very bad idea indeed, to the extent that they spent £9million writing to every one of us explaining why.

 

[Bodiddly]

Nothing like a bit of stereotyping is there! I thought you would show tolerance towards England rather than xenophobia. Anyway your idea for all "decent" English folk to move to Scotland is downright stupid and I;m not sure if it even deserves any serious consideration.

Ouch! Truth hurts a bit, yes? Is it stereotyping? Have I said all English are big, fat, bald, Bull Mastiff owning, football supporting yobs? No, don't think I did.
Unfortunately for you, us Scots are quite educated and also quite open in our opinions on our closest neighbours. As a Scot who very frequently visits England, I love having a relationship with my neighbours. I have stayed all over your lovely country, met so many of your lovely people and very much enjoyed it. Why then, do we, as Scots, get this impression of England being a xenophobic, racist, immigrant hating nation?
I know it's not true but if the shoe fits.....?

 

[cjmillsnun]

You've spent too much time with Terry.
It's of no relevance what i think should happen.

It's of every relevance. Before every election, parties put up a manifesto outlining the policies they hope to implement. The idea is make a decision based on all the facts and what you would like to happen.

Voting Remain was easy, it was status quo.

Voting Leave was gamble, because there was no Leave manifesto.

 

[Muttley]

Are you seriously saying that you have no opinion on what happens next? How did you know that leaving was a better option if you didn't consider the alternatives to EU membership?

Surely you have an opinion on EEA membership (meaning free movement of people and goods would continue)? Would this satisfy you?

Genuine question - who's Terry?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I'm not sharing it on this forum, for its irrelevant, i'm not in the government, and I won't be in the negotiations.

Terry is TheKnightWho.

Now we can do this another six times like he would, or you can accept that this is a problem of the government's making and not the voters.

 

[jon0844]

Surely we should leave as quickly as possible? After all, every week's delay is another £350m down the drain that could be spent on the NHS. The sooner we can stop those pesky migrants from coming over here and stealing our jobs, council houses and social security payment. Maybe we can even start deporting people in time for Christmas.

I'm surprised everyone is saying there is no rush when the benefits of leaving are clear for all to see.

You'd think so wouldn't you? It seems the remain camp want something to happen quick to reduce the uncertainty, and the leave aren't fussed.

It's a shame the banks and big businesses aren't necessarily going to wait.

 

[cjmillsnun]

How on earth can you blame the government, when their policy was that leaving would be a very bad idea indeed, to the extent that they spent £9million writing to every one of us explaining why.

Because some people will blame anyone except themselves.

 

[anme]

How on earth can you blame the government, when their policy was that leaving would be a very bad idea indeed, to the extent that they spent £9million writing to every one of us explaining why.

I think it's clear that since they found out that leaving the EU is a very bad idea, leave voters are changing their minds. We should actually be kind to them while this happens. No-one likes to be proven so disastrously and catastrophically wrong. And we are going to need their support (*) to achieve EEA membership.

(*) maybe only about 5% of them - i.e. enough to make a majority when added to the remain supporters in a possible/likely future referendum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I'm not sharing it on this forum, for its irrelevant, i'm not in the government, and I won't be in the negotiations.

Terry is TheKnightWho.

Now we can do this another six times like he would, or you can accept that this is a problem of the government's making and not the voters.

Are you arguing that doing something as stupid is leaving the EU is the government's fault, not the 51.9% who voted to do so without bothering to check what the alternatives are?

Are you really arguing that?

Anyway, as I wrote and as you obviously know already, there are several very different paths we could now take. The question of which we do take will be a much bigger fight than the EU referendum.

BTW, if you're not prepared to share any opinions, there's not much point posting on this forum. Maybe you can leave the space for people who do have interesting things to write.