Mvann
Member
Joining the euro as it stands at the moment won't do this country any good. Not while the Eurozone economy is in the state that it's in.
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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
So what you want is exactly what we had before the referendum!
Btw this rocket - it's gone off and destroyed half the bloody street! And the rocket wasn't part of the deal. In or out was the deal. We chose out.
Mvann
Member
And you think the exemption to political union actually means something? Although technically that's the case, I can't see that being a reality
DelayRepay
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You never know, give it a few weeks and joining the Euro might look an attractive option.
TheKnightWho
Established Member
Well it sort of is the reality, given we aren't in Schengen or the Eurozone.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
It had before Thursday! You did read the two questions in the paper I assume - no rockets mentioned there, no third way, just in or out!
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Mvann
Member
No what I wanted is as the original aims of the EEC. A trade organisations with some laws/standards that made it easier to trade. I want easy movement between countries and the choice that, in certain circumstances, movement is restricted. I want us to have the choice to be able to bail out the steel industry and not being told you can't do that when it is obvious other EU countries are all in but name.
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Sorry darlo. Not quite understand the "you did heaps the 2 questions" bit
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The easiest analogy I can think of is its like saying you don't have to do something, but you will do if you are trading in the EU zone.
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Sorry darlo. Not quite understand the "you did heaps the 2 questions" bit
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The easiest analogy I can think of is its like saying you don't have to do something, but you will do if you are trading in the EU zone.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Touch screens and predictive text! changes made.
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TheKnightWho
Established Member
Well sure, but the point is that at the moment we already get a good deal on that.
Ow my faith in my own nationality is being seriously tested at the moment. Comments like "I really wanted us to Remain but voted out in protest", "I voted out as a vote against Cameron" and so so frustrating to hear. If 17m legitimately voted out I can accept that the country voted out but not this. How many people didn't understand what this vote was about even though there was extensive coverage of all the issues involved? I said when this referendum was announced that I was glad the public was going to be given a vote but I'm not so sure Joe public can be trusted with such a vote!
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That's what we had.
Voting out presents a significant risk of losing that. Or maintaining the rights of free trade, but having lost the ability to influence the rules that we will still have to comply with to free trade.
State aid is the exception in your list isn't outright illegal per se. If you state aid one company however, it has to be balanced out so it's not an unfair advantage to other competing companies. The best example is the banks where RBS and Lloyds have had to sell off parts of their business in return for the advantage they gained through state aid.
The examples your probably thinking of have simply continued with a nationalised, monopoly provider... not the provision of state aid to a commercial company. In that circumstance there is no existing commercial company that is disadvantaged.
And you do realise that state aid is basically the tax payer subsidising a loss making business? Temporarily, there is a case for that. But permanently loss making?
I was a remain voter . However waking up the day after I can fully accept the weight of a democratic vote and am ok with the fact that English and Welsh people voted to leave the EU. I was never terribly enthusiastic about the EU as it stood (but then nothing is perfect and It was the lesser of many evils ) and I had to study EU law for a year at uni so I feel learned enough to make that judgement .
Of course I say England and Wales because in Scotland they are most likely going to revisit the issue of their independence (id love to see Boris try and tell Sturgeon that a indy referendum is not on the cards ) . And I just feel sorry for the people of NI because I understand that political instability like that there has the real potential to get people hurt and killed .
What I now cannot stand though is that nobody on the leave side had a clear plan for the action to take in the event on a vote to leave . And nobody the prime minister included is brave enough to actually invoke article 50 of the treaty . In the last hour I have heard rumors that some Tory MP's have been told by camp Boris that there is to be an immediate election if he wins leadership . Do these people really think that the EU is going to wait whilst we carry out a general election . Sure they cannot do anything formal whilst we take our time to invoke article 50 . But I am sure they will not just sit around twiddling their thumbs whilst we cause political and economic instability to continue in their countries . Even if we have a general election and the mandate is given that we are to remain and ignore the referendum (highly unlikely) there is precious little stopping the other 27 countries meeting and decided it is no longer fair to give us a healthy rebate , concessions on the Euro and exclusion form the schengen area . We may find our position as an already hands off EU nation becomes untenable .
Another thing that really does worry me is the Lurch to the right that the resulting fallout from this referendum and our exit from the EU could cause . People like Daniel Hannon have already gone on record as saying he envisages and wants us to remain a party to the single market and as a result he sees no decrease to EU migration . But I am sure many of us will have seen the tweets by the Vote Leave group in derbyshire basically saying that they voted for an end to mass migration so they expect people like him to give effect to that or else . If that view is mirrored by the majority of vote leave groups up and down the country then I am afraid that shows a demonstrable move to the right that could lead to some terrible terrible people gaining power if we did have a GE anytime soon or if our exit form the EU is not negotiated in such a way that free movement is ended . What we have now are a number of first time voters who have just been empowered by seeing real results overnight from their vote . And that could spell disaster for the main parties who could feel an anti establishment backlash .
Of course I say England and Wales because in Scotland they are most likely going to revisit the issue of their independence (id love to see Boris try and tell Sturgeon that a indy referendum is not on the cards ) . And I just feel sorry for the people of NI because I understand that political instability like that there has the real potential to get people hurt and killed .
What I now cannot stand though is that nobody on the leave side had a clear plan for the action to take in the event on a vote to leave . And nobody the prime minister included is brave enough to actually invoke article 50 of the treaty . In the last hour I have heard rumors that some Tory MP's have been told by camp Boris that there is to be an immediate election if he wins leadership . Do these people really think that the EU is going to wait whilst we carry out a general election . Sure they cannot do anything formal whilst we take our time to invoke article 50 . But I am sure they will not just sit around twiddling their thumbs whilst we cause political and economic instability to continue in their countries . Even if we have a general election and the mandate is given that we are to remain and ignore the referendum (highly unlikely) there is precious little stopping the other 27 countries meeting and decided it is no longer fair to give us a healthy rebate , concessions on the Euro and exclusion form the schengen area . We may find our position as an already hands off EU nation becomes untenable .
Another thing that really does worry me is the Lurch to the right that the resulting fallout from this referendum and our exit from the EU could cause . People like Daniel Hannon have already gone on record as saying he envisages and wants us to remain a party to the single market and as a result he sees no decrease to EU migration . But I am sure many of us will have seen the tweets by the Vote Leave group in derbyshire basically saying that they voted for an end to mass migration so they expect people like him to give effect to that or else . If that view is mirrored by the majority of vote leave groups up and down the country then I am afraid that shows a demonstrable move to the right that could lead to some terrible terrible people gaining power if we did have a GE anytime soon or if our exit form the EU is not negotiated in such a way that free movement is ended . What we have now are a number of first time voters who have just been empowered by seeing real results overnight from their vote . And that could spell disaster for the main parties who could feel an anti establishment backlash .
Steveman
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TheKnightWho
Established Member
Not really - you just expect people to take it lying down when an entire generation feels like it's had its interests ruined yet again by a generation that won't bear the consequences.
Got any plans going forward, or are you just another headless turkey who voted for Christmas?
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So we're going to see him presenting railway programs!
Harbornite
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I am most impressed by your use of the word "soar" which is one definition used in that context in your posting above that one would normally never come across.
I am indeed aware of Barrow upon Soar and wonder if unhappy people there could be described as "soar losers"....
I'm not sure why Antman has such a negative view of the residents of Barrow Upon Soar...
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backontrack
Established Member
Or he could present Top Gear - though with bicycles.
Hornet
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If you don't like democracy, may I suggest you find somewhere else in the world more in tune with your view's. Previous generations fought and died to allow us the right to choose. So accept the will and democratic right of the people, and stop talking down to your elders, as if they were idiots.
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Harbornite
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Interesting points. TheKnightwho isn't an opponent of democracy, in fact he is exercising his democratic right to complain about what has been a farce of a vote, with a number of brexiters announcing that they regret having voted to leave. The public is generally uninformed and has been lied to, so any complaints about the result of the referendum are justified. Also you seem to forget that just over 48% of the "people" voted remain.
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Howardh
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Would be an improvement!
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It's the lies wot did it. As a sad loser I'd put up with the result. What hurts is those, and I read there are big enough numbers who would alter the result, are more than upset that they have found out what they voted for is an illusion, and had they known...
Now that WOULD be truly democratic, allowing a re-run now the truth is out.
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Harbornite
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Agreed.
Mvann
Member
The problem with that referendum was that it was flawed, not helped by the posturing of the politicians and nothing coming out of the EU as to what the EU is. The biggest flaw of all was that we were voting on the way the EU is now. The problem is that the EU is changing.
Totally correct! I was perfectly happy to accept the result until I heard that people had voted out but didn't really understand the consequences and now regretted that. And Vote Leave are now admitting the £350m for the NHS was indeed a big fat lie, they have no intention on curbing immigration like most people who voted leave thought they were going to. All this stinks of people voting to leave but not understanding at all why they were doing so.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
As I don't have my Antman phrase book to hand perhaps you would like to explain what this means?
Whether you like it or not, the deal is both the free trade and freedom of movement, or neither. Given that choice, which do you want? Other than that, *exactly* which EU laws are you against?
BTW, the highest *remain* vote was mostly in areas with the highest net migration, and the highest leave vote was mostly in the areas with the *lowest* net migration. See http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...b0be24d34f5e21
How do you explain that? Is migration really a reason to leave the EU, or were bigoted people just expressing how much they hate foreigners?
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Exactly. Moaning is part of the democratic process. I think Leave supporters would prefer such people to be classed as traitors and locked in the tower.
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TheKnightWho
Established Member
I'll shut up when freedom of speech dies in this country. The awkward elephant in the room is "what next?", and none of you seem to have any idea or consensus.
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RichmondCommu
Established Member
No not at all. I have too many assets in this country to not want our economy to do well. I also want my children to have jobs in this country when they complete their University education in a couple of years time.
The fact is this country is well on its way to economic ruin if Friday is anything to go by and in the next year or so more bad news will be on it's way.
Nigel Farage stated on Friday that the people who voted Brexit on Thursday had beaten the multi-nationals. The problem is its the multi-nationals who will now start to move investment from this country to the rest of Europe.
This country doesn't have a plan to manage Brexit and that is absolutely scandalous. We have also been set on the path towards once again being the poor man of Europe. And all because some people have issues with Polish plumbers.
Exactly!
It's very very obvious from reading posts here that leave supporters have not thought one jot about what comes after this. I asked many times what they wanted to see after a leave vote. The response was one guy saying the Norwegian model, but with no apparent understanding of what that was, and one sub-Allo Allo "comedy" script. Seriously. Nothing else.
The question now is whether the UK wants to be part of the EEA, which would mean not much changing except that we lose most of our influence while still having to obey most of the regulations coming from Brussels. It's really really stupid compared to being a member of the EU, but it has an appeal to people who aren't very bright and it's the best option we have right now. We also don't know if other EU/EEA members would agree to this, and with what conditions. It's likely that the opt outs we have e.g. to protect the City of London might have to go. To be clear, this option would preserve freedom of movement of goods *and people*. You don't get to pick and choose.
Otherwise, we have to go it alone outside of all European trade agreements and start from scratch. That is a *very* difficult thing to do and would be very damaging in the short and medium term, and probably worse in the long term.
The UK will divide into camps between these two options, and the battle will make the referendum campaign look like a picnic. Choose your side now!
BTW, if you don't agree with this analysis of the options, post here what you think they really are.
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Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
There's another way to look at it.
The strongest remain areas are also those where people *feel* as if they have a reasonable say in local decision making. Scotland has its parliament and a fair degree of automony. London has an elected mayor with enough authority to make a difference in areas that Londoners care about. Northern Ireland is slightly different but after putting up with direct rule from Westminster during the troubles now has home rule at Stormont and despite occasional "tribal" difficulties it does appear that most people are satisfied with the arrangement.
Somewhat different in the leave areas. The Welsh have an assembly with restricted powers and many members who seem to be disconnected with the wishes of the people, particularly in Mid and North Wales. And in the English regions there is a very strong feeling of being ignored by Westminster with all the focus being on London.
Ironically the Maastricht Treaty contained references to the concept of subsidiarity, ie the devolution of decision making to the most local area appropriate to the issue being considered. Most European countries are strong proponents of this. But the Major government, and its successors, have as good as ignored this as much as possible, in particular by continuing the strangling of local authority funding begun by Thatcher. The Scottish independence referendum lead subsequently to calls for much more English devolution but so far this has made little progress.
The apparent dislike of foreigners being expressed in leave areas is just the traditional scapegoating that so often appears during times of economic gloom and is not unique to this country.
Very sensible post. Purely by the fact the Boris and Gove expected Cameron to carry on and negotiate our exit shows the naivety. Not surprised Cameron isn't interested in negotiating something he doesn't believe in. Where is the strategy from Vote Leave? Surely they would be banging the drum to get Article 50 served straight away? Maybe they never thought they would actually win so are caught in the headlights now they have got their way?
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