EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Rich McLean]

The £350 million figure was a lie. It works out to be far less.

If it's far less, then its more likely than the Government will be forced into a position to accept EEA, with cross party support (apart from UKIP of course)
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Also we have zero people who are experienced with negotiating trade deals. I'll say that again. NOT ONE PERSON. These deals normally take 5 years minimum to negotiate if you do have experienced people.

Then its EEA nailed on. I can't see the Government going any other way, and if they have Labour on their side, then that might mitigate the chances of losing an election.

 

[Garmoran]

I note Nichola Sturgeon has been a bit quieter of late over the possibility of an independence referendum . Perhaps as the dust has started to settle she has had time to better reflect on the situation .

I think you are seriously underestimating Ms Sturgeon. I played no part in placing her in her current office but have been mightily impressed by the way she has been handling things since Friday. Bear in mind that she is leading a party that is more politically diverse than either the Tories or Labour and that a third of SNP voters supported Brexit.

I believe that she knows there is almost certainly no way of keeping Scotland in the EU but realises that she has to be seen to be voicing the wishes of the majority of those Scots that voted in the Referendum and trying to salvage something from the result, however remote the possibility. She knows this is unlikely, but she has doing a PR job for Scotland with the other countries of the EU, keeping almost all of her party happy and being very visible as the only party leader that actually seems to be in control and doing something positive, in sharp contrast to Cameron and Corbyn.

She is undoubtedly one of the smartest politicians around and I agree with other posters that she will not be in a hurry to call a referendum without being certain of winning it and at the moment things are far too uncertain. All the talk of a referendum being "likely" and "on the table" is just to keep her party happy: it doesn't mean that it's going to happen soon.

 

[Mvann]

Point 1
I thought the EU was accused of being undemocratic with no choice however it's ok to stop asking all members if they agree with a deal?

You voted leave because you wanted to reform the EU? How are you going to do that from the outside? No it wasn't going to happen over night but it's never going to happen for you now.

I didn't say stop asking all members. Also presumably if 75% vote in favour of a deal that's not undemocratic

 

[EM2]

So to recap. I voted leave because there needs to be reform in the EU, some of which have been known about for years.

And how can you reform something that you aren't a member of?

 

[Garmoran]

The way I see it is this.


Cons:
...
- Scotland and NI vote to leave.

I can't believe how many people there are in forums and writing for newspapers who seem to think that there is some likelihood of Northern Ireland leaning the UK and joining the Republic because of Brexit. For me this assertion undermines everything else the writer says because they obviously have no idea of reality in Northern Ireland and I sincerely doubt that they have ever had a conversation about Irish unity with anyone from the Unionist community in Northern Ireland.

I hope that one day Ireland will be united, but it's not going to happen in my lifetime, probably not in that of my children.

 

[radamfi]

How many of you are in the process of sorting out your second EU nationality, if you are entitled to it through your ancestry? If you aren't entitled to another EU nationality, are you going to leave the UK as soon as possible before the door shuts?

Presumably free movement to Ireland will still exist, so one option for those who don't have another nationality is to move to Ireland for 5 years and then get an Irish passport. That route should still be open regardless of what happens.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

How many of you are in the process of sorting out your second EU nationality, if you are entitled to it through your ancestry? If you aren't entitled to another EU nationality, are you going to leave the UK as soon as possible before the door shuts?

Presumably free movement to Ireland will still exist, so one option for those who don't have another nationality is to move to Ireland for 5 years and then get an Irish passport. That route should still be open regardless of what happens.

My partner has an Irish Grandmother, we have talked about it. Not possible for me tho'.

 

[TheKnightWho]

How many of you are in the process of sorting out your second EU nationality, if you are entitled to it through your ancestry? If you aren't entitled to another EU nationality, are you going to leave the UK as soon as possible before the door shuts?

Presumably free movement to Ireland will still exist, so one option for those who don't have another nationality is to move to Ireland for 5 years and then get an Irish passport. That route should still be open regardless of what happens.

I'm sorting out an Irish passport. I nearly did this 3 years ago in anticipation, but decided not to bother in the end. Hopefully it'll be fine this time.

Frankly, I'm considering moving. No doubt this will make me a "traitor" to the nationalist zealots, but frankly if they're going to be selfish and screw up my future here then they can go stuff themselves.

 

[miami]

I can't believe how many people there are in forums and writing for newspapers who seem to think that there is some likelihood of Northern Ireland leaning the UK and joining the Republic because of Brexit. For me this assertion undermines everything else the writer says because they obviously have no idea of reality in Northern Ireland and I sincerely doubt that they have ever had a conversation about Irish unity with anyone from the Unionist community in Northern Ireland.

I hope that one day Ireland will be united, but it's not going to happen in my lifetime, probably not in that of my children.

One of the major cons of brexit is northern ireland becomes a mess.

However I'm not sure many people are proposing reunification. It would involve NI as an independent country, separate from Scotland and separate from Ireland.

 

[radamfi]

It would involve NI as an independent country, separate from Scotland and separate from Ireland.

That sounds like a good idea regardless of Brexit.

 

[Howardh]

I think you are seriously underestimating Ms Sturgeon. I played no part in placing her in her current office but have been mightily impressed by the way she has been handling things since Friday. Bear in mind that she is leading a party that is more politically diverse than either the Tories or Labour and that a third of SNP voters supported Brexit.

I believe that she knows there is almost certainly no way of keeping Scotland in the EU but realises that she has to be seen to be voicing the wishes of the majority of those Scots that voted in the Referendum and trying to salvage something from the result, however remote the possibility. She knows this is unlikely, but she has doing a PR job for Scotland with the other countries of the EU, keeping almost all of her party happy and being very visible as the only party leader that actually seems to be in control and doing something positive, in sharp contrast to Cameron and Corbyn.

She is undoubtedly one of the smartest politicians around and I agree with other posters that she will not be in a hurry to call a referendum without being certain of winning it and at the moment things are far too uncertain. All the talk of a referendum being "likely" and "on the table" is just to keep her party happy: it doesn't mean that it's going to happen soon.

There's no point in an independent Scotland if Spain will veto any moves to get Scotland in the EU.
The argument is..they are already in and want to stay, but that doesn't seem to stack up.
Could end up in the European Courts as to what, exactly, Scotland's position is.
I don't think there will be any compromise with Spain as they could lose Catalonia if they see Scotland as a success. Therefore Scotland must pin their hopes on the EEA, but what good that would do Scotland I don't know.

 

[jon0844]

How many of you are in the process of sorting out your second EU nationality.

I have dual nationality already (UK and Sweden) and I will later this year start the process to get my son a Swedish passport. My wife already has one, so that should mean all of us have a possible future in the EU if we wish.

Unless Sweden leaves too!

 

[miami]

There's no point in an independent Scotland if Spain will veto any moves to get Scotland in the EU.
The argument is..they are already in and want to stay, but that doesn't seem to stack up.

What if an independence referendum is implemented instead as "England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be a separate country", meaning we split from Scotland, leaving Scotland as "The United Kingdom of Scotland" (or "The United Kingdom of Scotland, London and Brighton"), with a continuation of government.

I guess it's an example of Trigger's Broom. If Cornwall split from the UK, the UK would still exist. If Scotland did, the UK would exist. What if Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the south west, the north, and kent all left? When does what's left of the UK become a different country?

 

[Garmoran]

There's no point in an independent Scotland if Spain will veto any moves to get Scotland in the EU.
The argument is..they are already in and want to stay, but that doesn't seem to stack up.
Could end up in the European Courts as to what, exactly, Scotland's position is.
I don't think there will be any compromise with Spain as they could lose Catalonia if they see Scotland as a success. Therefore Scotland must pin their hopes on the EEA, but what good that would do Scotland I don't know.

I don't doubt that Sturgeon is genuine in wanting Scotland to remain in the EU, but she is also a realist and, assuming the whole UK finds itself firmly outside the EU, I suspect Scotland will remain there, independent or not, because of the need for cross-border trade with the rest of the island. The irony of this is that the minority of SNP supporters who want an independent Scotland outside the EU are very likely to be the ones who get what they want in the long term.

 

[Mvann]

And how can you reform something that you aren't a member of?

So as I see it I could have voted remain for an EU as it is now with all the stated aims, which I don't want, leave, or abstain, which states I want neither, and then get complained at by every one on here and being told I was one of the ones who couldn't be bothered to vote. Or I could have spoilt my ballot paper, which no one has mentioned anything about.

 

[EM2]

So as I see it I could have voted remain for an EU as it is now with all the stated aims, which I don't want, leave, or abstain, which states I want neither, and then get complained at by every one on here and being told I was one of the ones who couldn't be bothered to vote. Or I could have spoilt my ballot paper, which no one has mentioned anything about.

Or you could have voted to Remain, and then lobbied your MP, and the political parties, to push for reform in the EU, and and organised others to do the same?
Instead of complaining 'Oh, it's broken and they won't fix it, so I don't want it any more', why not say 'OK, it's broken but this is how I'd like it fixed. And I'm going to do something about it'?

 

[Mvann]

Or you could have voted to Remain, and then lobbied your MP, and the political parties, to push for reform in the EU, and and organised others to do the same?
Instead of complaining 'Oh, it's broken and they won't fix it, so I don't want it any more', why not say 'OK, it's broken but this is how I'd like it fixed. And I'm going to do something about it'?

I only saw remain once on the ballot paper. It was sold as do you want to remain in the EU as it is now. The referendum was also sold as not legally binding. But this has turned out not to be the case.

 

[ExRes]

I'm sorting out an Irish passport. I nearly did this 3 years ago in anticipation, but decided not to bother in the end. Hopefully it'll be fine this time.

Frankly, I'm considering moving. No doubt this will make me a "traitor" to the nationalist zealots, but frankly if they're going to be selfish and screw up my future here then they can go stuff themselves.

If you've been considering taking out an Irish passport for three years then I doubt any 'nationalist zealots' will be too concerned what you do, it's your right to move wherever and whenever you wish as long as the country you move to is prepared to accept you

 

[EM2]

I only saw remain once on the ballot paper. It was sold as do you want to remain in the EU as it is now. The referendum was also sold as not legally binding. But this has turned out not to be the case.

That doesn't mean that you can't try and change it later.
Now there's no say in EU reform, and no guarantee that the UK won't end up a whole lot worse off.

 

[WestCoast]

How many of you are in the process of sorting out your second EU nationality, if you are entitled to it through your ancestry? If you aren't entitled to another EU nationality, are you going to leave the UK as soon as possible before the door shuts?

Presumably free movement to Ireland will still exist, so one option for those who don't have another nationality is to move to Ireland for 5 years and then get an Irish passport. That route should still be open regardless of what happens.

No, since I don't believe the door will shut, at least not firmly. In the worst case scenario it would mean a visa, which I'm confident I could obtain for the places I would go. If I wanted to emigrate to Australia or New Zealand, which is a much more attractive prospect for me than many EU countries, I'd be in much the same position.
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There's no point in an independent Scotland if Spain will veto any moves to get Scotland in the EU.
The argument is..they are already in and want to stay, but that doesn't seem to stack up.
Could end up in the European Courts as to what, exactly, Scotland's position is.
I don't think there will be any compromise with Spain as they could lose Catalonia if they see Scotland as a success. Therefore Scotland must pin their hopes on the EEA, but what good that would do Scotland I don't know.

Spain is such a bully boy over their territorial disputes. You have to wonder what era Madrid thinks it's living in. Next they'll be saying they need to 'take care' of Gibraltar when the UK leaves the EU. Oh wait, they already have...:roll:

 

[Mvann]

The referendum was sold as not legally binding. It was given as a way for the people of the uk to voice their opinion. Cameron threatened to start article 50 if the vote was to leave. We didn't ask for that. It's the politicians, the press and Europe that are now going down the route of leaving based on a non legally binding referendum. Especially as the vote was so close and 28% of eligible didn't vote either because they were a) unable to vote, b) didn't really want either, c) didn't believe they had enough understanding or d) couldn't be bothered.

 

[TheKnightWho]

If you've been considering taking out an Irish passport for three years then I doubt any 'nationalist zealots' will be too concerned what you do, it's your right to move wherever and whenever you wish as long as the country you move to is prepared to accept you

It's been for the same reason the entire time, because I saw this referendum coming.

 

[ExRes]

It's been for the same reason the entire time, because I saw this referendum coming.

Does that mean that you could also see such a lukewarm response by voters and a lacklustre campaign by those political figures who were supposedly concerned about our future within the EU?

Personally I simply don't believe that the EU, or certain parts of it, actually want the UK to be part of their 'project', as such I share no belief in their aims, whatever those aims might actually be

Anyone such as yourself who feels another passport would be a good fallback should do exactly as you feel, no argument from me, but I should remember the amount of EU members where there is growing unrest and calls to call their own referendum, in various places in the last few days I've seen France, Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, Italy, Finland and Germany mentioned while it's also been suggested that Turkey are considering a referendum to decide whether they still wish to be members, it may well not be all roses on the other side of the fence

Meanwhile I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if the referendum result is overturned and another called, my view of the modern definition of democracy was already on the wane and the farcical behaviour of the last week has done little to reinstate my confidence

I was also rather interested to see reference on the TV today to a group calling itself the 48%, as the claim is that 52% didn't actually vote to leave, it was only 37%, where exactly does 48% come from?, 37 + 48 + 28 didn't come to 100 when I was at school, one rule for one I guess

 

[Mvann]

If you want to stop all this the answer is simple. Not sure wether a petition or legal action would be the best route, but the referendum was stated as non legally binding. Therefore the action of leaving the EU from just the result of that refurendum should not be happening. Anybody with better writing skills, feel free to rewrite, bulk out, use more discriptive words, be my guest.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was also rather interested to see reference on the TV today to a group calling itself the 48%, as the claim is that 52% didn't actually vote to leave, it was only 37%, where exactly does 48% come from?, 37 + 48 + 28 didn't come to 100 when I was at school, one rule for one I guess

Think you're confusing yourself

Of the 72% who voted, 48% voted Remain and 52% to Leave

Of the 100% of registered voters, 28% didn't vote. 35% voted Remain and 37% voted Leave.

Make sense?

 

[Mvann]

Yes. So in a non legally binding refurendum 63% of the country didn't vote to leave and 65% didn't vote to stay.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Frankly, I'm considering moving. No doubt this will make me a "traitor" to the nationalist zealots, but frankly if they're going to be selfish and screw up my future here then they can go stuff themselves.

There are already more than enough real nasty, petty and offensive insults flying around in this debate (nationally, not just on railforums), without any need for people to imagine extra insults that haven't actually been said.

(I can see that getting an Irish passport would be a pretty wise move though in current circumstances for anyone who wants to guarantee keeping freedom of movement).

 

[Qwerty133]

That doesn't mean that you can't try and change it later.
Now there's no say in EU reform, and no guarantee that the UK won't end up a whole lot worse off.

The EU was not going to reform without at least one member either having a referendum going against the EU.

 

[Mvann]

The EU was not going to reform without at least one member either having a referendum going against the EU.

The thing is, if France had have had this vote, and leave won, France wouldn't be leaving the EU on the same figures we had, because it's not a legally binding referendum, and there would have been discussions about what to do next.

 

[TheKnightWho]

There are already more than enough real nasty, petty and offensive insults flying around in this debate (nationally, not just on railforums), without any need for people to imagine extra insults that haven't actually been said.

(I can see that getting an Irish passport would be a pretty wise move though in current circumstances for anyone who wants to guarantee keeping freedom of movement).

I've already had it from people not on this forum, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch.
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Does that mean that you could also see such a lukewarm response by voters and a lacklustre campaign by those political figures who were supposedly concerned about our future within the EU?

Personally I simply don't believe that the EU, or certain parts of it, actually want the UK to be part of their 'project', as such I share no belief in their aims, whatever those aims might actually be

Anyone such as yourself who feels another passport would be a good fallback should do exactly as you feel, no argument from me, but I should remember the amount of EU members where there is growing unrest and calls to call their own referendum, in various places in the last few days I've seen France, Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, Italy, Finland and Germany mentioned while it's also been suggested that Turkey are considering a referendum to decide whether they still wish to be members, it may well not be all roses on the other side of the fence

Meanwhile I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if the referendum result is overturned and another called, my view of the modern definition of democracy was already on the wane and the farcical behaviour of the last week has done little to reinstate my confidence

I was also rather interested to see reference on the TV today to a group calling itself the 48%, as the claim is that 52% didn't actually vote to leave, it was only 37%, where exactly does 48% come from?, 37 + 48 + 28 didn't come to 100 when I was at school, one rule for one I guess

It meant I was concerned enough about the possibility of leaving that I genuinely pursued that course of action. I wish I'd done it now.

There will be reforms within the EU - they're already being drafted now.