EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Harbornite]

Think you're confusing yourself

Of the 72% who voted, 48% voted Remain and 52% to Leave

Of the 100% of registered voters, 28% didn't vote. 35% voted Remain and 37% voted Leave.

Make sense?

Not that hard to grasp is it. At least you understand it.

 

[anme]

Don't you think the UK is much more likely to go on and on trying to argue what a very special case we are and how we need and deserve arrangements specially tailored to meet our requirements?

We will see, but I fear you are right. I was saying what I wanted to happen, not what I thought would happen.

To be honest, my conclusion from all this is that the UK is simply not to be trusted with our futures, and more specifically my future. As I wrote before, I already have some arrangements in place, and I realise that I'm very lucky.

I recommend to anyone who doesn't want to spend the rest of their lives on a sad little island ruled by Johnson, Gove and their offspring to start planning too. There's a big world out there - learn the lessons of history and get out before the door is closed and you're stuck with Nigel Farage stamping on your face for all eternity. And your children's faces too. If you need any more motivation, look at the pictures of him in the European Parliament yesterday.

 

[miami]

So as I see it I could have voted remain for an EU as it is now with all the stated aims, which I don't want, leave, or abstain, which states I want neither, and then get complained at by every one on here and being told I was one of the ones who couldn't be bothered to vote. Or I could have spoilt my ballot paper, which no one has mentioned anything about.

Spooling was mentioned
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2607409#post2607409

If you really are undecided, it would be best to spoil the ballot paper. That way, you are showing that you don't know which way to vote. Spoiled papers are shown along with the results of properly marked papers, so if enough people spoil their ballots, it would show that a lot of the country didn't know which way to vote. What that might lead to, nobody knows, but it would send a message.

 

[muz379]

I have now caught up with the posts. To anme and co.
1. With regards trade deals. I didn't mention special trade deals and my point was that we might get a better deal than we have now quicker than the EU because it could be done quicker and be more suitable to the uk. It's taken at least 5 years to get where the EU is with the USA on that deal and looks like it could take another 4years? Using your Canada scenario, we could get a deal quicker with them as they are dealing with one country, not one union of 27 countries. This I because you have to get 27 countries to agree to the deal. That is one reason the EU needs reform because new trade deals are taking too long.

Just on this point alone however we have a shocking lack of lawyers , civil servants,economists or even a directorate in the foreign office for negotiating trade deals . Reason being we have not had to do it for some time . What makes you think that we would be able to negotiate a better deal any quicker than the EU which actually has epxerts that stand ready to involve themselves in this business .

I think you are seriously underestimating Ms Sturgeon. I played no part in placing her in her current office but have been mightily impressed by the way she has been handling things since Friday. Bear in mind that she is leading a party that is more politically diverse than either the Tories or Labour and that a third of SNP voters supported Brexit.

I believe that she knows there is almost certainly no way of keeping Scotland in the EU but realises that she has to be seen to be voicing the wishes of the majority of those Scots that voted in the Referendum and trying to salvage something from the result, however remote the possibility. She knows this is unlikely, but she has doing a PR job for Scotland with the other countries of the EU, keeping almost all of her party happy and being very visible as the only party leader that actually seems to be in control and doing something positive, in sharp contrast to Cameron and Corbyn.

She is undoubtedly one of the smartest politicians around and I agree with other posters that she will not be in a hurry to call a referendum without being certain of winning it and at the moment things are far too uncertain. All the talk of a referendum being "likely" and "on the table" is just to keep her party happy: it doesn't mean that it's going to happen soon.

Im not I am merely pointing out what you have just said which is that despite her initial enthusiasm saying that a referendum is likely and on the table she has now realised winning such referendum is not as definite as it perhaps seemed at first .

I do commend her however for her current ability to present the view that she is in control of matters North of the border,although given whats happened in Westminster its hardly difficult . And we should commend her for delivery her part of the bargain on the remain side with the majority north of the border .

I only saw remain once on the ballot paper. It was sold as do you want to remain in the EU as it is now. The referendum was also sold as not legally binding. But this has turned out not to be the case.

Perhaps you ought to have listened to what was being said by some on the remain side then about trying to push a further reform agenda .
I only saw leave once on the ballot paper however there are many options on what relationship to take up with the EU post exit , and the official leave campaign did not present a clear or coherent case for what they saw this relationship being which will probably in the long run be to the detriment of their future political career .
One leave case that was clear was Nigel Farages , his preferred leave option has been clear for many years as outlined in every UKIP manifesto ever . I do wonder despite him being affiliated with the vote leave campaign how many people voted for his vision of exit , im guessing we can count on 3 million right away .

The referendum was sold as not legally binding. It was given as a way for the people of the uk to voice their opinion. Cameron threatened to start article 50 if the vote was to leave. We didn't ask for that. It's the politicians, the press and Europe that are now going down the route of leaving based on a non legally binding referendum. Especially as the vote was so close and 28% of eligible didn't vote either because they were a) unable to vote, b) didn't really want either, c) didn't believe they had enough understanding or d) couldn't be bothered.

The referendum was not legally binding however politicians have decided that it gives them a clear enough message to act . Nobody is saying that we must act because the referendum is legally binding or carries some legal force,politicians (Liberal Democrats aside) have just decided that their careers would be irreparably damaged by ignoring a leave vote in this referendum .

I have heard some murmurs from constitutional lawyers however that there is a complex constitutional law question posed by who has the authority to decide upon the invocation of article 50 of the treaty . So the legal situation is far from clear and we certainly have no commitment to a certain cause of action yet . David Cameron even said in his resignation speech that he leaves the decision on when to invoke Art50 up to the next prime minister .

Personally I simply don't believe that the EU, or certain parts of it, actually want the UK to be part of their 'project', as such I share no belief in their aims, whatever those aims might actually be

I tend to agree , our relationship with the EU has always been an at arms length one , with us securing concessions on schengen and the currency union . This was all only a matter of time and I am sure for some in the EU is not really that sad an affair .

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Also we have zero people who are experienced with negotiating trade deals. I'll say that again. NOT ONE PERSON. These deals normally take 5 years minimum to negotiate if you do have experienced people.

Not quite true. Last weekend the BBC reported having contacted Whitehall to ask about negotiators. The response was that the Civil Service currently has somewhere between 12 and 20 people who would be suitable for such a role. Doubtless there are a few more who have retired and might be enticed back to work. And doubtless there are numbers of UK nationals filling such roles in Brussels: since the EU is hardly likely to let them represent that side in any negotiations they may as well come home and sit on our side of the table.

As an aside I wonder whether a similar situation exists in the US. As well as putting together TTIP they are also busy trying to forge various deals with Pacific rim nations and serious negotiations with Cuba may not be too far off. When Obama warned us about being "at the back of the queue" could it be that simple availability of staff in Washington was behind it?

I can't believe how many people there are in forums and writing for newspapers who seem to think that there is some likelihood of Northern Ireland leaning the UK and joining the Republic because of Brexit. For me this assertion undermines everything else the writer says because they obviously have no idea of reality in Northern Ireland and I sincerely doubt that they have ever had a conversation about Irish unity with anyone from the Unionist community in Northern Ireland.

I hope that one day Ireland will be united, but it's not going to happen in my lifetime, probably not in that of my children.

It's not just the Unionist community in the North, there are plenty of ROI citizens who don't want unification either. After all that went on during the Troubles, and continues today with racketeering, there may well be some in the ROI who would be quite happy to scrap the Common Travel Area and put a "hard" border in place.

How many of you are in the process of sorting out your second EU nationality, if you are entitled to it through your ancestry? If you aren't entitled to another EU nationality, are you going to leave the UK as soon as possible before the door shuts?

Presumably free movement to Ireland will still exist, so one option for those who don't have another nationality is to move to Ireland for 5 years and then get an Irish passport. That route should still be open regardless of what happens.

How many people seriously want to emigrate just because of Brexit? I suspect that many who do have been thinking about it for a while and are simply bringing forward their plans. Most of us do feel this country is our home and peaceful political change is unlikely to persuade that many people to tear up their roots unless the economy suffers a real catastrophe.

Personally I simply don't believe that the EU, or certain parts of it, actually want the UK to be part of their 'project', as such I share no belief in their aims, whatever those aims might actually be

That has been the case the whole time. De Gaulle vetoed our membership twice. And his successors have never been more than lukewarm about our presence at the table. Interestingly there have been comments from German correspondents based here that their country has in recent times started to understand our attitudes much more clearly and realise that our motivation for international co-operation is for different reasons to theirs.

I have often wondered if we should have tried to engineer a referendum on Frexit and got the French out first, leaving the way clear to shape the EU in a rather different manner. Seemingly the French eurocrats in Brussels are already trying to get the French language established as the prime one for EU communication - by all accounts just about all the other countries have told them where to stick it and that English will continue as the main language.

Anyone such as yourself who feels another passport would be a good fallback should do exactly as you feel, no argument from me, but I should remember the amount of EU members where there is growing unrest and calls to call their own referendum, in various places in the last few days I've seen France, Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, Italy, Finland and Germany mentioned while it's also been suggested that Turkey are considering a referendum to decide whether they still wish to be members, it may well not be all roses on the other side of the fence

In reality it's only in France and Austria where anti-EU factions currently have sufficient support to push for their own in/out polls. As for Turkey its chances of joining go backwards each day Erdogan remains in office.

Yes. So in a non legally binding refurendum 63% of the country didn't vote to leave and 65% didn't vote to stay.

When you look at it that way it's hardly surprising that the two main parties are in such turmoil. Cameron really has created the most appalling mess.

 

[Rich McLean]

Looking back, this Referendum should never have been called. Now we are looking at EEA with the 4 strings attached, we will be in an even worse position than before.

Put it this way, EEA with Freedom of Movement and the other 3 fundamental parts of that will the best and only deal on the table. Two years is not enough time, when we only have 25 Trade Negotiators in the entire UK, and only one of them is of any use. We are un equipped.

EEA is lowest risk. Yes it will cause the out contingent to kick off and head to UKIP but its not a major issue. Labour wont get re-elected (in my own opinion, the party in its current form is finished), and UKIP will not win anywhere near enough seats due to FPTP, plus the SNP will be there to thwart any possibility of UKIP having any kind of voting power.

 

[Senex]

I tend to agree , our relationship with the EU has always been an at arms length one , with us securing concessions on schengen and the currency union . This was all only a matter of time and I am sure for some in the EU is not really that sad an affair .

It was our choice not to try to get in at the start and then to try and insist on being a special case on every possible occasion ever afterwards. It is hardly surprising that some of the other members have become both very disillusioned and very annoyed with us over the years. If you join an existing club, you accept its rules -- whereas if you're one of those trying to set up a club you have a full say in what those rules should be. Having joined you work with the others and don't take every opportunity to claim how "other" you are.

In the case of the EU, by not being there at the start we allowed something on a very French model to be set up (and something that was also very much a French benefit society!), so when we did go in it involved acceptance of all sorts of things rather strange to us. Was de Gaulle right to try and keep us out? Where would we have been now if we had never joined? I still think myself that we were right to go in, but that having gone in we should have accepted that we had to adapt and we should have made very much more effort to do so.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I didn't say stop asking all members. Also presumably if 75% vote in favour of a deal that's not undemocratic

I thought one of the main issues of the Leave campaign was having decisions put upon us? What if the UK had been in the 25% more often than that, would you happily accept it?

Why 75%, would you be happy say with 52% of EU countries voting in favour?

 

[ExRes]

Think you're confusing yourself

Of the 72% who voted, 48% voted Remain and 52% to Leave

Of the 100% of registered voters, 28% didn't vote. 35% voted Remain and 37% voted Leave.

Make sense?

I'm not confused, but thanks all the same for your concern. The bit that doesn't 'make sense' is the use of the 48% as they are clearly trying to claim to represent 48% of the electorate, I'm sure many of you on this forum would be more than a little miffed if Leave voters ran around calling themselves "The 52%"

 

[ExRes]

Yes. So in a non legally binding refurendum 63% of the country didn't vote to leave and 65% didn't vote to stay.

Quite so, that's for our elected leaders to sort out though, it does magnify the effect of the 28% that couldn't be bothered though, don't you think?

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'm not confused, but thanks all the same for your concern. The bit that doesn't 'make sense' is the use of the 48% as they are clearly trying to claim to represent 48% of the electorate, I'm sure many of you on this forum would be more than a little miffed if Leave voters ran around calling themselves "The 52%"

I'm sure there are plenty of Leave folk calling themselves the 52%

 

[Mvann]

Quite so, that's for our elected leaders to sort out though, it does magnify the effect of the 28% that couldn't be bothered though, don't you think?

But it may be that the 28% had a reason not to vote. How many were those that got delayed due to flooding, being in hospital, how many deçided to abstain, which I nearly did, because they thought that neither side made a good case to make a decision on. How many went on holiday and forgot to do or get a postal vote.

 

[northwichcat]

How many of you are in the process of sorting out your second EU nationality, if you are entitled to it through your ancestry? If you aren't entitled to another EU nationality, are you going to leave the UK as soon as possible before the door shuts?

Presumably free movement to Ireland will still exist, so one option for those who don't have another nationality is to move to Ireland for 5 years and then get an Irish passport. That route should still be open regardless of what happens.

I'm not sure if I'm eligible or not as my Irish grandmother died before I was born so I'm not sure if that means I'm classed as having a grandparent of Irish citizenship at the time of my birth or not.

 

[ExRes]

I'm sure there are plenty of Leave folk calling themselves the 52%

If there are they seem to be keeping a low profile

 

[Mvann]

I thought one of the main issues of the Leave campaign was having decisions put upon us? What if the UK had been in the 25% more often than that, would you happily accept it?

Why 75%, would you be happy say with 52% of EU countries voting in favour?

But only 37% voted for this government, and your happy with that. I would be happy if it was at least 75% because presumably the bulk of the deal would be agreed on and it would be either small bits that weren't or detail that wasn't agreed.

 

[47802]

Looking back, this Referendum should never have been called. Now we are looking at EEA with the 4 strings attached, we will be in an even worse position than before.

Put it this way, EEA with Freedom of Movement and the other 3 fundamental parts of that will the best and only deal on the table. Two years is not enough time, when we only have 25 Trade Negotiators in the entire UK, and only one of them is of any use. We are un equipped.

EEA is lowest risk. Yes it will cause the out contingent to kick off and head to UKIP but its not a major issue. Labour wont get re-elected (in my own opinion, the party in its current form is finished), and UKIP will not win anywhere near enough seats due to FPTP, plus the SNP will be there to thwart any possibility of UKIP having any kind of voting power.

While that's the best option economically, I think those that think we can have a deal that accepts freedom of movement does so at their peril. A friend of mine who lives an area with a large number of EU citizens told me many people had had enough and voted leave, similarly my Dad also has a friend in an area with a Large number of EU citizens and said his son is working 100 mile away from that area at the moment along with some other people from that area and they all drove home on Thursday night to vote leave.

Certainly unrestricted freedom of movement I think will be unacceptable to the electorate, I voted remain but I also believe unrestricted freedom of movement cannot continue, of course the other side of that will be a poor trade deal with significant job losses but I think that will be that reality of what we will end up with.

 

[lejog]

How many of you are in the process of sorting out your second EU nationality, if you are entitled to it through your ancestry? If you aren't entitled to another EU nationality, are you going to leave the UK as soon as possible before the door shuts?

Presumably free movement to Ireland will still exist, so one option for those who don't have another nationality is to move to Ireland for 5 years and then get an Irish passport. That route should still be open regardless of what happens.

I've investigated an Irish passport via an Irish grandfather. However the initial impressions are that I need an original birth certificate for my father (died 20 years ago) and my grandfather (thrown out of my family for infidelity in the 1940s!). A sibling has gone further and has gone further and found my grandfathers birth registered on one of these ancestry websites, so it may be possible to get copies of the birth certificates.

While I'll be fully retired by the time of leaving, my employers are urging any people who can get EU passports to do so, our business is heavily dependent on UK employees working in our EU subsidiaries.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure if I'm eligible or not as my Irish grandmother died before I was born so I'm not sure if that means I'm classed as having a grandparent of Irish citizenship at the time of my birth or not.

Plus in my circumstances, I don't even know if my grandfather was alive when I was born! Family folklore says he emigrated to Australia, but no-one really knows.

 

[VauxhallandI]

But only 37% voted for this government, and your happy with that. I would be happy if it was at least 75% because presumably the bulk of the deal would be agreed on and it would be either small bits that weren't or detail that wasn't agreed.

I'm far from happy that 37% voted in the current Government.

 

[radamfi]

How many people seriously want to emigrate just because of Brexit? I suspect that many who do have been thinking about it for a while and are simply bringing forward their plans. Most of us do feel this country is our home and peaceful political change is unlikely to persuade that many people to tear up their roots unless the economy suffers a real catastrophe.

We might not want to emigrate right now but at least want to have the option in the future.

I've investigated an Irish passport via an Irish grandfather. However the initial impressions are that I need an original birth certificate for my father (died 20 years ago) and my grandfather (thrown out of my family for infidelity in the 1940s!). A sibling has gone further and has gone further and found my grandfathers birth registered on one of these ancestry websites, so it may be possible to get copies of the birth certificates.

If you know which town the grandfather was born in, would the town hall or equivalent in Ireland have copies of all birth certificates of all people born there for at least the last 100 years?

 

[Mvann]

If the birth register is on web site, you should be able to get a certified copy. For Ireland I think it would be at Dublin archive depending on date of birth

It's actually the GRO at Roscommon

 

[ainsworth74]

I must admit if I had an Irish connection somewhere in my family tree I'd be applying for an Irish passport. I don't, currently, have any intention of emigrating but it would be nice to know that I would always have Visa free travel in the EU, access to the free or nearly free healthcare whist in the EU (via EHIC) and the right to live and work anywhere in the EU no matter what package we end up working out.

 

[Howardh]

How many people seriously want to emigrate just because of Brexit? I suspect that many who do have been thinking about it for a while and are simply bringing forward their plans. Most of us do feel this country is our home and peaceful political change is unlikely to persuade that many people to tear up their roots unless the economy suffers a real catastrophe.

That's the difficulty. I'm here - 58 and packed my job in 2 yrs ago to care for my parents (late 80's) full-time. The intention afterwards WAS to sell up and either have a small flat here - thus keeping a foot in the UK - and buy a small apartment in the sun (I'm single so small = just fine) and in the EU that would have been about as simple as it gets.
But now...what? I can't plan anything now for several years. Resident's permit? Tax regimes? Pensions? Health? Thanks to (bloody) Brexit everything's up in the air, and I'm gonna lose (if m = d died soon) several years of my full retirement in the sun whilt the chaos clears - and if there's too much paperwork/admin required then I doubt I'll move at all.

So I'll be getting a UK pension, and using up UK services (NHS etc) when I could be abroad out of the way. Stll ba having long holidays there - as long as my health is up to it of course.

 

[WestCoast]

I must admit if I had an Irish connection somewhere in my family tree I'd be applying for an Irish passport. I don't, currently, have any intention of emigrating but it would be nice to know that I would always have Visa free travel in the EU, access to the free or nearly free healthcare whist in the EU (via EHIC) and the right to live and work anywhere in the EU no matter what package we end up working out.

I think EHIC is based on your residency status as an EU national, therefore you'd have to live in Ireland and have an Irish social security number to gain an Irish EHIC card.

When I was studying abroad in the EU, I was allowed to keep my UK EHIC card for up to one year but it's mostly intended for short-term stays.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think EHIC is based on your residency status as an EU national, therefore you'd have to live in Ireland and have an Irish social security number to gain an Irish EHIC card.

When I was studying abroad in the EU, I was allowed to keep my UK EHIC card for up to one year but it's mostly intended for short-term stays.

Ah, well scratch that then but the rest still applies and would still have been worth the price of admission!

 

[TheKnightWho]

I've investigated an Irish passport via an Irish grandfather. However the initial impressions are that I need an original birth certificate for my father (died 20 years ago) and my grandfather (thrown out of my family for infidelity in the 1940s!). A sibling has gone further and has gone further and found my grandfathers birth registered on one of these ancestry websites, so it may be possible to get copies of the birth certificates.

While I'll be fully retired by the time of leaving, my employers are urging any people who can get EU passports to do so, our business is heavily dependent on UK employees working in our EU subsidiaries.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Plus in my circumstances, I don't even know if my grandfather was alive when I was born! Family folklore says he emigrated to Australia, but no-one really knows.

You don't need originals. What you do need are official copies of birth, marriage and death certificates (where applicable) of your grandparent, parent and you, which cost €40 for Irish ones and £9.25 for UK ones. Obviously they need to be from the relevant country, and if they're from a non-English-speaking country you will need to get an official translation done.

 

[ExRes]

You don't need originals. What you do need are official versions of birth, marriage and death certificates (where applicable) of your grandparent, parent and you, which cost €40 for Irish ones and £9.25 for UK ones. Obviously they need to be from the relevant country, and if they're from a non-English-speaking country you will need to get an official translation done.

FORTY EUROS hock:

That must be why the less educated and doddery old pensioners voted for Leave

You youngsters must have too much spare cash

 

[LuSiVe]

I was born in Glasgow so I'm still hoping for my Scottish EU passport
However one set of grandparents was born in Northern Ireland so I'm looking into the possibility of dual citizenship if I can get all the papers together OK.

 

[TheKnightWho]

FORTY EUROS hock:

That must be why the less educated and doddery old pensioners voted for Leave

You youngsters must have too much spare cash

I have mine from 3 years ago, and it was "only" €30 back then. Fortunately, my grandfather moved when he was a teenager so all the rest were UK.

 

[Howardh]

How long do you have to reside in Ireland to qualify for a passport on residency grounds?

 

[ExRes]

I have mine from 3 years ago, and it was "only" €30 back then. Fortunately, my grandfather moved when he was a teenager so all the rest were UK.

I think I'd need a particularly large shovel to dig out my relatives, since the 18th century all of mine have come from a 200 mile radius of the south east of England, even though my surname is supposed to be of Welsh origin with Irish and German branches, rather ironically

I feel it's all getting evermore academic now anyway, if it is true that the British Prime Minister cannot activate Article 50 without an act of Parliament, then I wouldn't attempt to hold my breath until it happens

I guess it may turn out that we've all been lied to from each and every angle