Paddington derailment 16/06/16

[GB]

MFA is not worth the paper or pixels its written on.

 

[ComUtoR]

True stories brah

What you say does happen and not that uncommon either. That's called Management bullying and shouldn't happen. No doubt we all have such stories. Imagine the report if it were to read that he had reported it to his line manager but he was declined time off, declined a break, and coerced to work his duty.

Those days of the railway still exist and there are still a few "old fashioned" Managers but they are dying out and every Driver should be filing out a fatigue form

The fatigue thing changed quite recently and we have a specific process to go through and forums to fill out. Our fatigue reporting has no penalty either. You do not need to go sick and cannot be disciplined for fatigue problems. Lifestyle issues aside, fatigue has been taken very seriously by the industry. I forget the incident that triggered the new changes but our Mangers will bend over backwards when fatigue gets reported.

It is our responsibility as Drivers to ensure the safe working our our trains. The second we make the declaration the responsibility and liability is ours.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Those days of the railway still exist and there are still a few "old fashioned" Managers but they are dying out and every Driver should be filing out a fatigue form

Will many current managers in the rail industry have worked their way up the ranks or will they have come into the industry, potentially with no prior experience of working in the rail industry?

 

[pompeyfan]

It's a fairly even split from what I've seen, some come in as graduates where as others start on the platform and end up all the way up the top.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

some come in as graduates

:? Graduates in most industries seem to try and bring in ideas which staff at the coal face can see from a mile away will fail miserably

 

[matt_world2004]

What would happen if someone was repeatedly unfit for duty through no fault of their own but it wasn't medical related either (for example if it was caused by noisy neighbours )

 

[gsnedders]

There is no discrimination and no specific policy (that I am aware of) about cramps. Many of the ladies who work for my TOC have taken time off when the moon swings in their direction .

It is a very simple, non discriminatory, easy peasy, lemon squeezy thing to understand.

If you are unfit for duty, you do not drive.

I'm not questioning this; it's a question as to what point continued unfitness for duty because an attendance issue.

If we assume a woman misses two days out of each menstrual cycle then this amounts to 26 days per year (this is a bit on the extreme end, but certainly still plausible); Ramadan, depending on lunar cycle, is 28 or 29 days per year.

If one concludes that this is too much time off work to be allowed, then surely one most forbid both groups of people from driving as they are ultimately comparable in time off. (But even that is a simplification: when Ramadan falls during the height of winter if you deliberately arrange shifts to suit, it might be possible for them to work their normal hours.)

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm not questioning this; it's a question as to what point continued unfitness for duty because an attendance issue.

There is no attendance issue. You are just not driving your train. That does not specifically exclude you from other duties.

If one concludes that this is too much time off work to be allowed, then surely one most forbid both groups of people from driving as they are ultimately comparable in time off.

Our role is safety critical and you MUST make the declaration of fitness every day. Part of the job is to make those safety decisions. There should be no fear of AAW procedures and there is no discrimination of anyone. It is one rule for everybody. The TOC MUST make allowances for medical/lifestyle/menstruation or general problems. The second they take action against you then it becomes discrimination. The TOC do not have a leg to stand on. The procedure is that if you believe you are unfit to drive then you must not drive.

(But even that is a simplification: when Ramadan falls during the height of winter if you deliberately arrange shifts to suit, it might be possible for them to work their normal hours.)

Precisely. The TOC can accommodate people in their roles. Ours do it all the time. The AAW procedure isn't just about the number of sick days you have off. Everything else must be explored before that route is taken. If a Driver is having issues for whatever reason then they should not just phone in sick. Talk to your Line Managers and discuss options and act professionally. Off track, light duties etc will never trigger AAW procedure (or at least shouldn't)

I think your over complicating it. If your "sick" then you go sick. If your unfit to drive, then don't. If you have "issues" talk to your Manager.

When the smoking ban came in you were allowed time off work and not allowed to drive if you have cigarette cravings ! We have a dedicated smoking cessation team to specifically deal with it.

The world has moved on from the "good old days" of employment.

 

[Muttley]

...as they are ultimately comparable in time off...

Except one is a physical manifestation, and the other one is a self inflicted wound.

 

[QueensCurve]

Driver is now called in for a disciplinary interview and issued with a warning for attendance.

Few weeks later, at the booking-on counter:
Driver "I slept badly last night and I feel fatigued."
Manager "Are you fit for duty, yes or no?"
Driver "No".
Manager "So you're reporting sick then?"
Driver "I don't want to report sick but"
Manager "Are you sick, yes or no?"
Driver "No, hopefully I'll be ok".

Later that shift, SPAD.

I confess I don't have a solution to how the above state of affairs should ideally be managed, but I've seen the above so many times.

Alas this is all too true.

 

[Bellbell]

It's not inconceivable at all that menstrual cramps might leave a female driver unfit for duty. Some women experience vomiting and diarrhoea; obviously they can't drive in that condition. However, as a long term issue, medication is (often) available to reduce or eliminate those issues. I don't know how a TOC would regard an ongoing condition that frequently left a driver unfit for duty where the driver refused medication, but some of the medication available might well be undesirable to the driver because of the side effects.

I'm not so sure our TOC is as accommodating over fatigue issues; certainly for our guards some people have been allowed to remain at work on light duties, others have been told they have to go sick as there are no light duties available for them when they've been unable to do safety critical work. Doesn't seem fair but it's never been challenged as far as I'm aware. That wasn't because of fatigue but I can't imagine that being treated any differently.

I'd hazard a guess that the railway as a whole has some potentially interesting legal challenges over the next few years over some of the issues that have been discussed in this thread.

 

[bramling]

What would happen if someone was repeatedly unfit for duty through no fault of their own but it wasn't medical related either (for example if it was caused by noisy neighbours )

Basically, the onus is on the driver to sort it out.

I remember a SPAD issue related to a driver whose neighbours had started breeding cats in their back yard. Whilst sympathetic to the cause, the action plan basically consisted of actions the driver himself would take to try to deal with the problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

when Ramadan falls during the height of winter if you deliberately arrange shifts to suit, it might be possible for them to work their normal hours.)

The difficulty with this is that everyone takes on the job knowing they will be working shifts and following a roster. The moment you start making special arrangements for individuals, others will rightly be aggrieved - especially if the special arrangement means they are getting out of unpopular shifts (perhaps extreme turns, lates, nights or weekends, or whatever), or worse if others are having to do their work for them.

So the only fair way for adjustments to occur is the individual arranges their own mutual changeovers with other staff (or, in rarer cases, is lucky enough to be able to move to a location where the roster suits their needs). But the problem is one can't always rely on this.

 

[3141]

If the Daily Mail follows this forum it’s probably very pleased at some of the comments it has provoked. Let’s remember that RAIB says it is unable to determine whether fasting by the driver was a factor in what happened; whereas it does point to a lack of clarification between the signaller and the driver which was a factor. There are probably hundreds of drivers, especially on London Underground, who are Muslims and who fast during Ramadan. Is anyone aware of any pattern of problems relating to these drivers as a result of fasting? If there is no evidence for such problems then some parts of this discussion are unfounded and apparently unnecessary speculation.

I’m currently taking part in the testing of a new drug which requires me to have a blood test every month before which I should not have eaten anything for at least ten hours. The appointments are at around 9.00 am, I leave home an hour earlier, and I usually have no food after 7.00 the previous evening. Therefore I am driving to the medical centre having fasted for thirteen hours. It hadn’t occurred to me that I might not be fit to drive, and I have no reason to doubt that I am fit. Of course my monthly fast is different from that of a train driver who observes Ramadan every day for a month. On the other hand, I’m likely to be around 40 years older than this driver is, and so more susceptible to any effects of fasting.

 

[ComUtoR]

If there is no evidence for such problems then some parts of this discussion are unfounded and apparently unnecessary speculation.

Just because there has been no evidenced gathered does not mean that the point is moot. Personally I think the RAIB failed here and made a political decision and a have deftly avoided the debate regarding fasting.

As to your medical fasting. I have no doubt that you were given a warning regarding fasting and driving. I have had a few hospital trips recently and the guidance is that patient transport can be arranged if you believe you are unfit to drive due to fasting or medication.

I done a bit of drug testing many years ago. (£200 for a day in a clinic !) I was strictly advised NOT to drive.

 

[PermitToTravel]

As to your medical fasting. I have no doubt that you were given a warning regarding fasting and driving. I have had a few hospital trips recently and the guidance is that patient transport can be arranged if you believe you are unfit to drive due to fasting or medication.

My doctor is a bit of a numpty. When I asked once if I shouldn't drive, I got the brilliant answer "Oh you can drive, just don't do anything that would be dangerous if you passed out"

 

[D365]

:? Graduates in most industries seem to try and bring in ideas which staff at the coal face can see from a mile away will fail miserably

That's a broad and demeaning statement. Don't know where you're getting this idea from.

 

[theironroad]

That's a broad and demeaning statement. Don't know where you're getting this idea from.

On the railways, probably from experience of seeing 1001 new graduate managers think they are the greatest gift since whatever.......

 

[Flamingo]

On the railways, probably from experience of seeing 1001 new graduate managers think they are the greatest gift since whatever.......

I could never work out the attitude amongst (certain) managers that a Graduate Manager is supposed to be the answer to a TOC's prayer, but graduates in other jobs (of which there are many, in all grades) don't have a clue what they are talking about and are obviously not bright enough to understand the big picture...

 

[richw]

I could never work out the attitude amongst (certain) managers that a Graduate Manager is supposed to be the answer to a TOC's prayer, but graduates in other jobs (of which there are many, in all grades) don't have a clue what they are talking about and are obviously not bright enough to understand the big picture...

Graduates tend to know the job on paper but not practical. What it says on paper often doesn't work in practice.

 

[Flamingo]

Graduates tend to know the job on paper but not practical. What it says on paper often doesn't work in practice.

Sorry, I didn't phrase my post very well, re-reading it. What I meant was that there are a lot of graduates working in "coal face" jobs on the Railway, but as they are not wearing a suit, the fact that they are educated to degree level doesn't seem to count.

But a "Graduate Trainee" is viewed in certain quarters as some kind of wonderkid who is bringing in blue-sky thinking and who's every idea is treated as something special. Despite their idea in some cases just being to paint the wheel a different colour, or give it corners...

I remember once telling one of these bright sparks that the people doing the job needed to be consulted - he told me that people working on buffets were not bright enough to understand the issues involved! Wrong train - the two CH's has an MA and a BA between them, which I took great pleasure in telling him (along with asking what his degree was in...)

 

[Rich McLean]

GWR in the past used to be able to work around Muslim drivers fasting by offering them turns which enables them to have a meal before work or on a PNB in the hours of darkness, or failing that on shorter turns. It worked where there were a small number of them.
However particularly on LTV at Paddington, there are so many Muslim drivers that this is no longer practicable. If they feel that on that particular that they are not fit to drive a train due to fatigue, then they need to let this be known when booking on.

However as the RAIB haven't confirmed that it is a factor or not as of yet, we can't go into assumptions.

 

[BestWestern]

However as the RAIB haven't confirmed that it is a factor or not as of yet, we can't go into assumptions.

I would gladly bet that nobody will ever reach the conclusion that fasting was a definite issue, because it's far too politically sensitive and would put heads on blocks when it came to deciding the rules. You can just imagine the the office full of suits passing the buck around and around!

Instead, we will settle on the conveniently vague "we're not really sure" and hand the hot potato firmly back to the TOCs to deal with...

 

[bramling]

That's a broad and demeaning statement. Don't know where you're getting this idea from.

Where I am, there are some really awful graduate managers, as well as some excellent ones. The same applies to people who have come through the grades.

In my experience it's more to do with the individual than the background.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Graduates tend to know the job on paper but not practical. What it says on paper often doesn't work in practice.

Likewise it's quite possible to have staff with many, many years of experience who still don't fully grasp how something works.

This can be quite evident when they're in for interview after a SPAD and the signal diagrams come out!

 

[ScouserGirl]

I am not a defender of doing stupid **** for religion, but if the driver saw the signal and believed the signal was not for him that is not caused by hunger induced inattention, that is caused by lack of training.

However it is deeply disturbing there have been two serious accidents caused by driver inattention/training on GWR's networker trains in the last year. Maybe driver training and performance managment needs a serious review.

What was the other incident? My minds gone blank... I presume there are minor incidents everyday that we all don't know about, there will always be odd incidents, there's mix conflicts of what's gone on here :-/

 

[bramling]

What was the other incident? My minds gone blank... I presume there are minor incidents everyday that we all don't know about, there will always be odd incidents, there's mix conflicts of what's gone on here :-/

Hayes & Harlington passenger incident.

 

[ScouserGirl]

Hayes & Harlington passenger incident.

Oooh I remember that one now!

 

[Scott M]

Are you comfortable with somebody else risking your life for their beliefs?

 

[Sprinter153]

Precisely. The TOC can accommodate people in their roles. Ours do it all the time. The AAW procedure isn't just about the number of sick days you have off. Everything else must be explored before that route is taken. If a Driver is having issues for whatever reason then they should not just phone in sick. Talk to your Line Managers and discuss options and act professionally. Off track, light duties etc will never trigger AAW procedure (or at least shouldn't)

I think your over complicating it. If your "sick" then you go sick. If your unfit to drive, then don't. If you have "issues" talk to your Manager.

Round my way they frequently remind us that there is no such thing as light duties and you're either fit to work or you're booked sick.

The usual question is "Can you walk a mile and a quarter? No? Then go home, your Managing for Attendance meeting is on Monday."

 

[bramling]

Round my way they frequently remind us that there is no such thing as light duties and you're either fit to work or you're booked sick.

The usual question is "Can you walk a mile and a quarter? No? Then go home, your Managing for Attendance meeting is on Monday."

The other favourite is "Can you drive a train? No, well you're no use to me then."

To be fair, there is no magic answer to this, as if you have a supportive policy then some individuals will milk it for all they can.

Of course, many individuals are good as gold. The recruitment process needs to identify and take on these people, but sadly often doesn't.

 

[ComUtoR]

The usual question is "Can you walk a mile and a quarter? No? Then go home, your Managing for Attendance meeting is on Monday."

What happens when someone is F2 ?