Paddington derailment 16/06/16

[BestWestern]

As far as I know, if a driver signs a route, it has to include all running lines, loops and sidings. It is his responsibility to be confident to drive a train over those lines, and as far as sidings are concerned, if he hasn't been over them for a long time, he usually should have time to refer to the relevant documentation to be able to move the train safely.

Known as a 'route refresh' and generally required after six months.

 

[Tomnick]

A route refresh surely applies to routes not covered over the previous six months, not individual lines or sidings?

 

[D1009]

Known as a 'route refresh' and generally required after six months.

Yes, but it's not practical for every driver to be completely familiar with every inch of track on the route card from memory, if they do not normally operate over it.

 

[ComUtoR]

As far as I know, if a driver signs a route, it has to include all running lines, loops and sidings. It is his responsibility to be confident to drive a train over those lines, and as far as sidings are concerned, if he hasn't been over them for a long time, he usually should have time to refer to the relevant documentation to be able to move the train safely.[s/]

I'd say that is pretty spot on. But then you say this.

Yes, but it's not practical for every driver to be completely familiar with every inch of track on the route card from memory, if they do not normally operate over it.

I'm not sure what point your making here. Please explain further as I'm a little confused. Cheers in advance.

A route refresh surely applies to routes not covered over the previous six months, not individual lines or sidings?

Nope. It can include ANY bit of track. We have sidings that have 1 signal in, 1 signal out. I can pull it from my route card at any point I feel that I am no longer competent to drive it. Hell, we have lines with a reversible section I could ask for a refresher on because we never go that way. As evidenced by the report. It becomes part of the investigation. Maintaining competency is part of a Drivers duties and something they declare, every, single, day.

 

[najaB]

I'm unclear what your point is.

That if you are going to deny someone the freedom to observe their religion you need a damned clear-cut case to back up that decision. Nothing more or less.

Honest questions:

- do you believe it's acceptable for a train driver to book on for duty while severely malnourished/dehydrated?;

- would you be happy to board a train driven by a driver who is severely dehydrated/malnourished?;

- would you be happy for your loved ones to do so?

No. But I couldn't support prohibiting someone's religious freedoms unless they had signed a contract that allowed the TOC to do so. For the simple reason that it sets a dangerous precedent - moving goalposts and all that.

To misquote a well known saying: those who would give up an iota of freedom in return for safety are fated to end up with neither.

 

[richw]

Was it not also mentioned he had not driven that little bit of track since he'd been in training - apart from one other occasion

You assumed right!

Who alleged signing a route involved driving it once during training? Not the case, I can assure you.

From the RAIB report

he had only driven over the link line once during his training, and on one further occasion since qualifying

 

[ComUtoR]

But I couldn't support prohibiting someone's religious freedoms unless they had signed a contract that allowed the TOC to do so. For the simple reason that it sets a dangerous precedent - moving goalposts and all that.

I have a nagging suspicion that my contract states that the company is secular and does not recognise any specific religious holidays or beliefs etc.

There is also the question of the legal declaration made each day to say they are well rested and safe to operate a train. There are also guidelines on fatigue. The fast does not need to be adhered to strictly (you can go to an Imam for dispensation)

I know one staff member who observes his fast and because it affects his work day and he finds it difficult to manage with work he takes leave. His TOC is completely ok with that and he has does it every year I have known him. (railway worker, not a Driver)

 

[bramling]

I know one staff member who observes his fast and because it affects his work day and he finds it difficult to manage with work he takes leave. His TOC is completely ok with that and he has does it every year I have known him. (railway worker, not a Driver)

I guess the only problem with the latter is if, for some reason, he couldn't get the leave. Obviously more of a problem for those with rostered annual leave.

 

[najaB]

There is also the question of the legal declaration made each day to say they are well rested and safe to operate a train.

Thank you. If there is a legal declaration at the start of the day then there is the potential justification for requiring drivers to break their fast in order to work.

 

[Quakkerillo]

I too thought that at first, but thinking about it more, the driver ignored the signal because he was convinced he was being signalled straight into Platform 1 and hadn't noticed that the previous train had not yet passed him on its way out of the station. That sounds like a lapse in concentration to me.

I must note that the driver wasn't in the cab the whole time, as was in the sort-of-report, but in a passenger compartment on the internet while he was told to wait. This could easily be enough to miss a train passing, or if you see/hear one, not exactly knowing which service it is if you don't see it coming from the station itself, but merely sideways.

 

[Bromley boy]

That if you are going to deny someone the freedom to observe their religion you need a damned clear-cut case to back up that decision. Nothing more or less.
No. But I couldn't support prohibiting someone's religious freedoms unless they had signed a contract that allowed the TOC to do so. For the simple reason that it sets a dangerous precedent - moving goalposts and all that.

To misquote a well known saying: those who would give up an iota of freedom in return for safety are fated to end up with neither.

You sign a contract requiring you to declare yourself fit for duty when booking on. This naturally curtails certain freedoms, freedom to use drugs, freedom to go drinking etc. As ComUtoR says by booking on you make the statement that you are fit for duty.

Fitness for duty includes anything else in your personal life which may be a distraction, for example a bereavement or critically ill relative would probably involve some time off track.

You are made aware of these requirements multiple times when taking the job, and there is a very obvious justification for the restrictions in terms of the enormous responsibility of the role.

I don't think distraction due to religious fasting is any better an excuse than someone saying they booked on while drunk and were distracted by their hangover.

 

[MarkyT]

You sign a contract requiring you to declare yourself fit for duty when booking on. . . . by booking on you make the statement that you are fit for duty.

A problem with fasting is that unlike hangovers at the time of booking on you may be perfectly ok as you may well have just eaten recently. It's as a long shift progresses towards its grueling end that any fatigue and other issues are likely to take effect. Individuals have very different tolerance too. A very fit young person might very be able to handle a 12 hour shift without refreshment easily, but particularly in hot weather it would be hydration that would be a problem for me. On the other hand sometimes I have completed a full day (office work) without eating with no ill effects, simply because I was so busy I neglected to break for lunch. As I understand it, Muslims always have get out clauses from fasting. i.e if they feel unwell, are menstruating etc they can be excused, and many defer fasting on those day until after Ramadan when they can 'make up time' at their leisure. Surely any sensible Imam would advise if a Muslim is feeling unreasonably tired in charge of a train or other machinery then they must break their fast, eat their Snickers and drink some water. Allah would surely understand the greater good being served thereby.

In any case it seems unlikely excessive fatigue had any significant part to play in this particular incident.

 

[jayah]

A very fit young person might very be able to handle a 12 hour shift without refreshment easily, but particularly in hot weather it would be hydration that would be a problem for me. On the other hand sometimes I have completed a full day (office work) without eating with no ill effects, simply because I was so busy I neglected to break for lunch.

------

In any case it seems unlikely excessive fatigue had any significant part to play in this particular incident.

Office work is very different from train driving.

During the docu soap a HST driver was given competency questions on risks associated with hot weather and gave good answers including the importance of hydration, fatigue and carrying bottled water.

Some serious questions need to be raised if in practice people are doing exactly the opposite. I dare say some fit people could have beer for breakfast and drive a train and nobody could tell the difference but that doesn't mean it should be allowed. Sunrise in June is something like 5am by the end if the evening peak that is what 14hrs without even a drink???

I dont know how you change the leave and rosters to make Ramadan 'work' but I can't see any justification to allow someone driving a train in 28C heat 14hrs from their last drink. It is just not on at all.

Whether fatigue or route knowledge was primary or secondary in this particular incident is a separate issue.

 

[MarkyT]

Office work is very different from train driving.

Not least because you can't take a toilet break at any time so it's inadvisable to 'over-hydrate' before a start to keep you going.

I dont know how you change the leave and rosters to make Ramadan 'work' but I can't see any justification to allow someone driving a train in 28C heat 14hrs from their last drink. It is just not on at all.

My office work example, whilst sometimes omitting a food break, included many hot drinks and cups of water at my desk during the day, as it always has done, and I agree hydration is the major concern about fasting.

 

[jayah]

Yes, but it's not practical for every driver to be completely familiar with every inch of track on the route card from memory, if they do not normally operate over it.

The sidings at Royal Oak are not exactly obscure they are being used all the time. The drivers need to be familiar with them even if their depot uses them less than another.

An interesting thing in the report that the requirement for TVSC to talk to the driver when clearing a GPL where the train then needs to stop at another GPL protecting a main line apparently being flouted because Paddington is too busy.

Also the bizarre layout at Royal Oak where in the opposite direction going Royal Oak onto Line 1 both sidings are covered by main aspects, yet 6004 facing Line 1 into Plat 1 is only a GPL. What price a pole on which to plant the LEDs?

 

[theageofthetra]

Not surprisingly the Mail has picked up on the story and describe it as as two red lights being passed at danger.

 

[thenorthern]

Got to remember as well any medical professional will tell you not to eat before you go to bed as most foods particularly carbohydrates can and will stop you from sleeping.

 

[MarkyT]

An interesting thing in the report that the requirement for TVSC to talk to the driver when clearing a GPL where the train then needs to stop at another GPL protecting a main line apparently being flouted because Paddington is too busy.

Especially seeing that the consequences of a misunderstanding in such a busy, constrained area could be so disruptive, even if not exceptionally dangerous (theoretically).

Also the bizarre layout at Royal Oak where in the opposite direction going Royal Oak onto Line 1 both sidings are covered by main aspects, yet 6004 facing Line 1 into Plat 1 is only a GPL. What price a pole on which to plant the LEDs?

Agreed, even on the 'wrong' (right hand) side it would be a lot more visible, and it could be a fixed red main head displayed along with the associated position light for the route into platform 1. This could be done without any significant changes to the interlocking. A TPWS TS grid could also be provided to apply the brakes earlier after a SPAD, i.e before the first wheel hit the ballast and alerted the driver to the mishap.

 

[jayah]

Especially seeing that the consequences of a misunderstanding in such a busy, constrained area could be so disruptive, even if not exceptionally dangerous (theoretically).



Agreed, even on the 'wrong' (right hand) side it would be a lot more visible, and it could be a fixed red main head displayed along with the associated position light for the route into platform 1. This could be done without any significant changes to the interlocking. A TPWS TS grid could also be provided to apply the brakes earlier after a SPAD, i.e before the first wheel hit the ballast and alerted the driver to the mishap.

With this requirement for a verbal understanding between driver and signaller they seem to have clearly recognised the risk - and done nowhere near enough to make it go away. Judging by the live map of Paddington, the western exit from Royal Oak is also 'protected' by some sort of run off before merging into Line 1.

 

[gsnedders]

Discussing this with my girlfriend earlier discussing the application of religious discrimination laws to this, she asked me as to what the status of gender discrimination and menstruation is, given severe cramping could definitely make one unfit to work. Anyone know what TOCs (or FOCs) policies are about such things with female drivers (and, I guess, other people in safety critical roles)?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I must note that the driver wasn't in the cab the whole time, as was in the sort-of-report, but in a passenger compartment on the internet while he was told to wait. This could easily be enough to miss a train passing, or if you see/hear one, not exactly knowing which service it is if you don't see it coming from the station itself, but merely sideways.

Wouldn't a driver stay in the cab at all times in order to get messages from the signaller? Do you have anything to prove this as I have seen nothing in any released report or news article

 

[theironroad]

Discussing this with my girlfriend earlier discussing the application of religious discrimination laws to this, she asked me as to what the status of gender discrimination and menstruation is, given severe cramping could definitely make one unfit to work. Anyone know what TOCs (or FOCs) policies are about such things with female drivers (and, I guess, other people in safety critical roles)?

I'd imagine that the issue probably hasn't been considered fully yet at a corporate level. If the cramping occurs befpre duty commences it is probably upon the individual to call in sick just as any other pain (eg a leg cramp etc) and declare they are not for for duty. If it occurs on duty and the individual believes that they cannot continue, they will have to notify their resource manager or signaller if urgent and be relieved from duty asap.

I'm not sure menstural cramp would warrant grounds for gender discrimination, unless a female driver was actually dismissed simply because they were having these specific cramps.

I'd also suggest that there is a difference here. If I'm having cramps or some other excruciating pain, then I know that I need to declare and issue. In this case, IF the fasting was causing loss of concentration and the driver was aware he was losing concentration then there would be an obligation for him to report it. However, he may not have been aware and thought he was doing ok.

 

[najaB]

In this case, IF the fasting was causing loss of concentration and the driver was aware he was losing concentration then there would be an obligation for him to report it. However, he may not have been aware and thought he was doing ok.

That's a good point - one of the first symptoms of the loss of mental performance would be the inability to recognise your lack of mental performance.

How many times have you seen stumbling drunks who insist they are ferpectly fine.

 

[ComUtoR]

she asked me as to what the status of gender discrimination and menstruation is, given severe cramping could definitely make one unfit to work. Anyone know what TOCs (or FOCs) policies are about such things with female drivers (and, I guess, other people in safety critical roles)?

There is no discrimination and no specific policy (that I am aware of) about cramps. Many of the ladies who work for my TOC have taken time off when the moon swings in their direction .

It is a very simple, non discriminatory, easy peasy, lemon squeezy thing to understand.

If you are unfit for duty, you do not drive.

The rule doesn't distinguish between cramps, erectile dysfunction, lazyitus, or waking up on the wrong side of the bed. If you don't feel/believe/potentially/maybe that you cannot drive, DONT.

I'm sure this was not the first time he had fasted and common sense dictates that not eating or drinking will lead to fatigue. He should not have booked on.

Not the best way to learn an easy lesson.

 

[bramling]

If you are unfit for duty, you do not drive.

I don't disagree with the gist of this ... however:

(at the booking-on counter)

Driver "I slept badly last night and I feel fatigued."
Manager "Are you fit for duty, yes or no?"
Driver "No".
Manager "So you're reporting sick then?"
Driver "I don't want to report sick but"
Manager "Are you sick, yes or no?"
Driver "OK I'll go off sick then".

After returning for duty, couple of months down the line:
Driver "I slept badly last night and I feel fatigued."
Manager "Are you fit for duty, yes or no?"
Driver "No".
Manager "So you're reporting sick then?"
Driver "I don't want to report sick but"
Manager "Are you sick, yes or no?"
Driver "OK I'll go off sick then".

Driver is now called in for a disciplinary interview and issued with a warning for attendance.

Few weeks later, at the booking-on counter:
Driver "I slept badly last night and I feel fatigued."
Manager "Are you fit for duty, yes or no?"
Driver "No".
Manager "So you're reporting sick then?"
Driver "I don't want to report sick but"
Manager "Are you sick, yes or no?"
Driver "No, hopefully I'll be ok".

Later that shift, SPAD.

I confess I don't have a solution to how the above state of affairs should ideally be managed, but I've seen the above so many times.

 

[theageofthetra]

The above scenario tends to change tack when a senior manager is up in front of a high court judge led coroner enquiry.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How does the attendance warning system generally work in the rail industry? Are you allowed so many days off sick before you get some sort of warning?

 

[Nippy]

Wouldn't a driver stay in the cab at all times in order to get messages from the signaller? Do you have anything to prove this as I have seen nothing in any released report or news article

From the report

While his train was waiting in Royal Oak sidings, the driver of 3H52 sat in the passenger accommodation and used an electronic device to access the internet. There is no evidence that this device was used while the driver was in the driving cab of the train, or that it played any part in what happened next.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Judging by the live map of Paddington, the western exit from Royal Oak is also 'protected' by some sort of run off before merging into Line 1.

Yes, it is also protected by Main Aspect signals.

 

[westcoaster]

Wouldn't a driver stay in the cab at all times in order to get messages from the signaller? Do you have anything to prove this as I have seen nothing in any released report or news article

There is no requirement to stay in the cab if it is not live.

 

[BestWestern]

How does the attendance warning system generally work in the rail industry? Are you allowed so many days off sick before you get some sort of warning?

'Managing For Attendance' and similar, which follows a process of several 'stages' as things get more severe. In the scenario given, where a member of staff repeatedly arrived unfit for duty, the system would indeed be used. However, I would expect that to include establishing why the problem keeps arising, and supporting the employee in attempting to resolve it. Ultimately, however, it is down to staff to manage their lifestyle accordingly. If there is a medical issue, there is a process for dealing with that.