• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

Status
Not open for further replies.

43074

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2012
Messages
2,031
Not that I'm much of a fan of the 700s... but it does seem to be the way. The 345s are even more tube like, admittedly they go through the centre of London in a "tube system" for longer.

Crossrail is basically a glorified version of the Central Line, OK it's different in terms of being a mainline railway and not a tube line but the basic principles are the same, hence that is reflected in the interior design. I sincerely hope the Anglia suburban stock does not follow the same principles - there's no reason why they should as they as they have no Central London ''core'' to negotiate, Crossrail and Thameslink will hopefully remain the exception rather than the rule.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,620
How come it takes this long for the Guardian to cotton on? The whole "less seats more standing" was in the original Thameslink rolling stock spec, we seem to have been discussing it here for about 5 years...
 

Fincra5

Established Member
Joined
6 Jun 2009
Messages
2,497
Crossrail is basically a glorified version of the Central Line, OK it's different in terms of being a mainline railway and not a tube line but the basic principles are the same, hence that is reflected in the interior design. I sincerely hope the Anglia suburban stock does not follow the same principles - there's no reason why they should as they as they have no Central London ''core'' to negotiate, Crossrail and Thameslink will hopefully remain the exception rather than the rule.

Yeah it is, in the centre. Don't forget how far it reaches either side.
 

Bishopstone

Established Member
Joined
24 Jun 2010
Messages
1,488
Location
Seaford
How come it takes this long for the Guardian to cotton on? The whole "less seats more standing" was in the original Thameslink rolling stock spec, we seem to have been discussing it here for about 5 years...

Because rolling stock tenders and specifications make for boring news stories, without a human interest angle. Generalist readers would skip that page, and too many skipped pages is bad for advertising revenue, ultimately.

Now the trains are being introduced, the media can talk to passengers about their experiences and opinions, and report verbatim the moany tweets about legroom etc. It becomes easy to fill column space.

'Mrs Muggins of Haywards Heath said she was shocked at the absence of seat back tables on which to rest her organic soya latte' etc.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,492
Location
Bolton
And from Tuesday the following seven diagrams will operate weekdays...

TB501 SX
5Y91 02+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
2W91 02.40 Bedford to Brighton
1B00 05.47 Brighton to London Bridge
1B05 07.12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B10 08.27 Brighton to London Bridge
1B15 09.42 London Bridge to Brighton
1B22 11.02 Brighton to London Bridge
1B25 12.12 London Bridge to Brighton
5B25 13+29 Brighton to Down Yard
5B38 14+42 Down Yard to Brighton
1B38 15.02 Brighton to London Bridge
1B41 16.12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B48 17.32 Brighton to London Bridge
1B51 18.42 London Bridge to Brighton
5W51 20+06 Brighton to Three Bridges Depot

TB502
5W93 05+10 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W94 05.20 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W13 07.34 Bedford to Brighton
1W24 10.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W41 13.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W92 15+41 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W92 15+56 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
1W92 15.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
2W61 18.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W66 20.43 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y68 23+00 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

TB503
5Y11 06+32 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W11 06.58 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W22 09.11 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W29 11.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W40 14.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W57 17.20 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W62 19.43 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y62 22+00 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

TB504
5W02 05+07 Brighton Down Yard to Brighton
1W02 05.30 Brighton to Bedford
2W21 08.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W30 10+41 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W30 10+56 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W30 10.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W37 13.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W96 16.35 Brighton to Bedford
5Y96 19+03 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

TB505
5Y01 03+47 Jowett Siding to Bedford
1W01 04.16 Bedford to Brighton
1W82 07.22 Brighton to Bedford
1W23 10.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 13.05 Brighton to Bedford
1W45 15.50 Bedford to Brighton
1W56 18.35 Brighton to Bedford
5Y69 21+14 Bedford to Jowett Sidings
5Y69 21+27 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W69 21.40 Bedford to Brighton
5W69 00+25 Brighton to Down Yard

TB506
5W06 05+10 Three Bridges Depot to Brighton
1W06 06.06 Brighton to Bedford
2W23 08.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W32 11.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W39 14.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W80 17.01 Brighton to Bedford
5Y80 19+33 Bedford to Jowett

TB507
5Y93 07+04 Jowett to Bedford
1W93 07.30 Bedford to Brighton
1W22 10.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W39 12.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W48 15.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
2W59 18.00 Bedford to Gatwick
2W64 20.18 Gatwick to Bedford
2W81 23.10 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W81 01+36 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot

Future weekend workings to follow

Are these still current? Thanks.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
How come it takes this long for the Guardian to cotton on? The whole "less seats more standing" was in the original Thameslink rolling stock spec, we seem to have been discussing it here for about 5 years...
And has been an ongoing development on the railway generally; cf. SWT's refurbished 455s.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,798
But more importantly, it's a massive upgrade on capacity and (probably) journey times. There will always be winners and losers. Those that see the change as that much worse can make their own decisions. Compare at the passenger entry and exit figures for stations along the various Thameslink routes in 2020 with previous years and I doubt that there will be an exodus of the kind that some here seem to imagine.
Just because people don't leave, doesn't mean they don't dislike it.

The winners and losers argument can be applied to anything. One could say we shouldn't provide more carriages as it is costly. When someone says but they have to stand, the reply can be there will always be winners and losers!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,620
If only they'd get on with the stated aim in the franchise specification of removing Thameslink specific fares, then all Brighton passengers will have the choice of Thameslink or Southern services on the same ticket.

So in due course obviously everyone will vote with their feet, and the 377s will all be rammed, and the 700s empty.

Perhaps...
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,362
Location
St Albans
Just because people don't leave, doesn't mean they don't dislike it.

Without getting into a tit for tat discussion, your statement is correct. As I said, that those (like everybody else) make their own decisions. It may be to find alternative methods of getting to work, changing their employment or just moaning on social media. I doubt that many would take the second option soley because the seating on their train(s) to work doesn't suit them as much as before new stock is introduced though. I would however suggest that many more would abandon or modify their established work-life setup if in a few years time, the increase in rail passenger levels meant that they frequently couldn't get on some trains to stand, let alone get a 'comfortable' seat.
Then don't forget the silent majority, who don't rush to social media to see their complaint in print when they might be quite neutral, let alone favourable, about the situation.

The winners and losers argument can be applied to anything. One could say we shouldn't provide more carriages as it is costly. When someone says but they have to stand, the reply can be there will always be winners and losers!

Although I'm sure that most posters on these forums generally see rail as a preferred mode of travel, particularly into central London, funding for improvments to the rail system (including rolling stock) is in constant competition with many other areas of government spending for limited public funds. If the government of the day was absolutely committed to providing whatever was needed to make the system perfect, the electorate of which a realtive minority comprioses London rail commuters, would certainly object to their 'share' of public funds benefitting a few, - and vote at the next opportunity to change the administration.
As a result, there will always be net losers, and that also means that those who are comfortable with a status quo don't have any entitlement to it forever.
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
So maybe I need to replan my Saturday - via Bedford.... :lol:

Now told things have changed since I was told nothing this weekend.

Diagrams are as posted as it a full Saturday service with an altered single diagram Sunday. So we've now past the point where there are no 700 daily workings now.
 
Last edited:

Islineclear3_1

Established Member
Joined
24 Apr 2014
Messages
5,876
Location
PTSO or platform depending on the weather
Now told things have changed since I was told nothing this weekend.

Diagrams are as posted as it a full Saturday service with an altered single diagram Sunday. So we've now past the point where there are no 700 daily workings now.

Good, looking forward to a spin up the MML :lol:

I take your last sentence as we are at the point where there are 700 workings every day now (bar stock failures of any kind etc)
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Good, looking forward to a spin up the MML :lol:

I take your last sentence as we are at the point where there are 700 workings every day now (bar stock failures of any kind etc)

Pretty much. We have now gone past the point the point of no return. There are now more 700 coach's in service than 387s with 21 '4 car' worth of 700 diagrams vs 20 4 car 387 diagrams (20 diagrams from 23 units).
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,166
Location
UK
Pretty much. We have now gone past the point the point of no return. There are now more 700 coach's in service than 387s with 21 '4 car' worth of 700 diagrams vs 20 4 car 387 diagrams (20 diagrams from 23 units).

Are they now considered reliable enough for 387s to begin moving to GN?
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Are they now considered reliable enough for 387s to begin moving to GN?

6x 387/1 have already gone to Hornsey out of a fleet of 29x 387/1. The 6x 387/2 have almost left TL with just 387223 on loan unti next week.

The last two 700/1 diagrams directly replaced 6x 387 diagrams on Thameslink. So that point is already in the past
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,166
Location
UK
Given how few 387/2s there were, and now are, I'm amazed that on my last three trips on TL I was on one!
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
I've managed to 'luck out' with 387/2s a few times as well. Notably though, most of the times I've been on a 700, it's been the most appropriate train for my journey, I have only really had to bend my journey once, which was for my very first trip. I actually happened across one by chance later the same day.
700113 was a legitimate journey today and my first trial of first class (wanted a table for my laptop, probably wouldn't have bothered for a 387 trip, so there's £7 extra revenue for you :P). No major faults with the unit but there was a long dwell at Farringdon as the doors took 40 seconds to open and it took the unit a full 2 minutes to voltage change (notable by the fact the ventilation fans and power sockets in first were off for that length of time). I also observed the sockets being disabled during any loss of third rail power, e.g. crossing points and so on, as my laptop switched from battery mode and back to AC numerous times on my journey, which theoretically, may not be good for the devices plugged in? I might be imagining things, but I honestly don't remember this happening on Electrostars - is there a longer buffer time on those when running on battery power?

As an entertaining anecdote, the PIS system was working fine on 700113 on the way down, yet defective on 387127 on the way back (always displayed 'we are now approaching x' where x would be whatever was the previous station - never displayed the next station or the destination & calling points on the service, visually or audibly, which given the variation in calling pattern during the peak would see most customers reliant on an app, leaning out the train to catch a glimpse of a sign at a station, or hope they caught the calling pattern before they boarded.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,362
Location
St Albans
So it looks like the 700s' teething troubles are fading away and they are now considered reliable enough to fully roll out on all services.
Next stop is the 8-car 700/0s running the loop and Sevenoaks services. It should be interesting how their good acceleration helps them perform on the all-station times between St Pancras and St Albans.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,491
On both the 700s and the 387s when they switch between AC and DC do the TMSs run through a series of checks before allowing the driver to take power?
 

43074

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2012
Messages
2,031
So it looks like the 700s' teething troubles are fading away and they are now considered reliable enough to fully roll out on all services.

Probably more to do with there being so many units in the UK that they are running out of space to store them...

Next stop is the 8-car 700/0s running the loop and Sevenoaks services. It should be interesting how their good acceleration helps them perform on the all-station times between St Pancras and St Albans.

Well these are the services which 700s are actually suitable for in the first place, they'll probably be better received on these services than they have been on the Bedford - Brighton's.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,432
Well these are the services which 700s are actually suitable for in the first place, they'll probably be better received on these services than they have been on the Bedford - Brighton's.

I can't imagine how they will be better received. Saving a few posters on here, and one (yes one*) passenger onboard one of the 50 odd trips I have made on the 700s, I have heard only positive comments, or those that provide balance and finish up being net positive.

Perhaps the good folk of Hendon, Swanley and Mitcham will be arranging street parties and dancing girls?

*The only person I have heard make negative comment on board a 700, I am reasonably confident, is also one of the negative commenters on this thread. Given that what he said was almost verbatim comments made on here.
 

etc9

Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
7
I sincerely hope the Anglia suburban stock does not follow the same principles
According to Modern Railways, the Aventras on West Anglia LO services will have entirely longitudinal seating. So even more "metro" than the ones on Crossrail or the S8s.
 
Last edited:

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,205
Location
Surrey
According to Modern Railways, the Aventras on West Anglia LO services will have entirely longitudinal seating. So even more "metro" than the ones on Crossrail or the S8s.

Why the hell is that being allowed to happen?
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,425
Location
nowhere
According to Modern Railways, the Aventras on West Anglia LO services will have entirely longitudinal seating. So even more "metro" than the ones on Crossrail or the S8s.

The West Anglia Aventras (Ilford) will have an S8 arrangement (ie alternating sides of transverse and longitudinal seating), although they might end up with something more like the class 345s. The other subfleet of Aventras (Willesden based), which will operate the Euston-Watford and GOBLIN services will have the full longitudinal seating.
 

etc9

Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
7
The West Anglia Aventras (Ilford) will have an S8 arrangement (ie alternating sides of transverse and longitudinal seating), although they might end up with something more like the class 345s. The other subfleet of Aventras (Willesden based), which will operate the Euston-Watford and GOBLIN services will have the full longitudinal seating.

For reference the exact wording (in the context of an article about the Crossrail 345s) was as follows:

Modern Railways said:
Bombardier is also building Aventra EMUs for TfL's London Overground routes, although these 45x4-car Class 710s will differ from the '345s' in having shorter 20-metre vehicles (compared to around 23 metres on the '345'), only two doors per side and all longitudinal seating in the carriages.

Very welcome news if they've got it wrong though, because I think solely longitudinal on WA services would be quite unpleasant.

EDIT: Sorry - quite off-topic!
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,897
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
So it looks like the 700s' teething troubles are fading away and they are now considered reliable enough to fully roll out on all services..

Hmm, another shambolic Thameslink day today, whatever the root cause it once again demonstrates the inherent fragility and unreliability of the Thameslink concept.

(And if it's not a Desiro S**tty failing then infrastructure failures in Sussex achieve the same outcome on a regular basis).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top