Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[samuelmorris]

It is to have the maximum possible aisle space, given how narrow our trains are in comparison to other countries.

Who knows, in years to come if populations continue to skyrocket we may need 2+1 seating to enable more standing/walking room. I'd hope by then we'd be building more lines, but it's probably fair to say we'd need to squeeze in a bit more capacity still before that happened.

To clarify - that was not a complaint about the seat width, but the seat pitch - i.e. how close the next seat is in front of me. I think the seat width is livable as it's similar to 2+3 stock - not pleasant, but it suffices.

 

[bramling]

Can many of the technical issues also be partially put down to staff in-experience with Desiros?

Don't doubt it. But one way or another this is not for the passenger to have to concern themselves with - GTR publish a timetable and they should deliver on that. If there are staff unfamiliarity issues then the training has been deficient.

If Thameslink Programme/DFT/GTR/NR are presiding over this level of shoddy sloppy performance today, then why on earth should stakeholders believe that everything will work well when the new timetable comes in?

Someone should put the word "Thameslink" in the dictionary along with a definition that includes the word unreliable. Actually I'd go further but in the interest of decency I'll leave it at that.
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To clarify - that was not a complaint about the seat width, but the seat pitch - i.e. how close the next seat is in front of me. I think the seat width is livable as it's similar to 2+3 stock - not pleasant, but it suffices.

The width wouldn't be such an issue, inferior though it is, if there wasn't the duct that runs below the window line, which along with the seat cantilevers heavily intrudes into the seating position. Many people also find these seats uncomfortable too, but that's a separate issue.

 

[D365]

If Thameslink Programme/DFT/GTR/NR are presiding over this level of shoddy sloppy performance today, then why on earth should stakeholders believe that everything will work well when the new timetable comes in?

Because that's the whole point of introducing the trains now, rather than in two years time. It's unfortunate, the timing of it, but better that some experience is gained now rather than none at all before 2018.

 

[Bald Rick]

Meanwhile the Luton/Orpington/Sutton loop services were very good - had to commute to and from Cricklewood a few weeks ago for a few days. All on-time bar one and no problems. The 319s may be a bit older now, but reliable.

319s have been failing left right and centre the last few weeks, including last Thursday night when the northbound evening peak was stationary for half an hour from 1730 when one failed at Farringdon, and messed up for an hour or so after that. And again this morning when one failed in the centre siding at St Albans at 0745, messing up the southbound morning peak. So I wouldn't call them reliable.

 

[Kite159]

Are these still the latest diagrams:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2682537&postcount=4983

Or have I missed a later post?

 

[D365]

Not just Northern and London Midland who are suffering then.

(Off-topic but could they consider replacing their 319s?)

 

[Bald Rick]

One "reassurance" given on here was how resilient the core is, for example having bi-directional signalling. Wonder what proportion of the timetable would be practically able to run using the bi-di if one line is blocked?

The bi-di isn't for running the service, at least not in regular hours.

It's for enabling certain maintenance between 0100-0400 when the service is 2tph each way (which is the limit without flighting). It is also there to enable trains trapped by a failure in front to get back to a platform, or for a train that has failed to change over at City or Farringdon to get back from whence it came.

 

[jon0844]

To clarify - that was not a complaint about the seat width, but the seat pitch - i.e. how close the next seat is in front of me. I think the seat width is livable as it's similar to 2+3 stock - not pleasant, but it suffices.

Ah, sorry. Yes, that is different.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

319s have been failing left right and centre the last few weeks, including last Thursday night when the northbound evening peak was stationary for half an hour from 1730 when one failed at Farringdon, and messed up for an hour or so after that. And again this morning when one failed in the centre siding at St Albans at 0745, messing up the southbound morning peak. So I wouldn't call them reliable.

I assume LM sorted out the problem with their 319 on the Abbey Flyer? For a while it was as if there was no train service at all.

 

[TH172341]

319s have been failing left right and centre the last few weeks, including last Thursday night when the northbound evening peak was stationary for half an hour from 1730 when one failed at Farringdon, and messed up for an hour or so after that. And again this morning when one failed in the centre siding at St Albans at 0745, messing up the southbound morning peak. So I wouldn't call them reliable.

I must have been very lucky then that week! In that case I retract my original statement that they're reliable if they're playing up as well now. The 700s I am sure will surpass them in reliability once fully up and running, but it will take time.

DAB Move - I know, the 319s at Northern/LM have been useless at times - sure LM (or their successor) could replace them with the likes of freed up 360s from Anglia, or the ex TPE 350/4s?

 

[jon0844]

Maybe Siemens is out sabotaging the 319s at night to improve the stats?

 

[bramling]

Maybe Siemens is out sabotaging the 319s at night to improve the stats?

One does wonder, as there's no doubt class 319 reliability is not what it once was.

For the poor Thameslink passengers, I don't suppose they care what type of train fails at a given time -- they just want Thameslink to operate reliably. Whatever type of train and whatever the reasons, Thameslink is badly letting its passengers down at the moment.

It seems like every time I walk through St Pancras on my way to King's Cross I see Thameslink's departure boards showing late running and cancellations. Arriving at King's Cross to find my Great Northern train on time (current crew issues excepted), I'd be mad to want to be part of Thameslink.

 

[spark001uk]

319s have been failing left right and centre the last few weeks, including last Thursday night when the northbound evening peak was stationary for half an hour from 1730 when one failed at Farringdon...

I was stuck in the aftermath of that when I was up there trying out the 700s, and due to crew displacement my planned 3rd and 4th rides on 700s were cancelled!

---

Any details yet on the failures last night? Like unit nos and what their faults were?

 

[Goldfish62]

That's the accessible area isn't it? I think it's vital that new trains have areas that are multi-purpose. Obviously for wheelchairs first and foremost but also for other things, from buggies to an excessive number of cases (even bikes).

At least with a nice open space, you have options. Yes, you get less seats but it's better that you have room to move people and their things, even with a little less comfort, during disruption or unexpectedly large passenger flows.

No, one of the coaches is 2+1 specifically to allow more standing room.

 

[Minstral25]

Because that's the whole point of introducing the trains now, rather than in two years time. It's unfortunate, the timing of it, but better that some experience is gained now rather than none at all before 2018.

Introduce them now when the number of trains have been cut significantly (and I don't just mean because of strikes but also half timetable was taken out for 4/5 years of London Bridge works), so passengers are struggling to get to work anyway and now we have constant cancellations due to new stock. It's already been 3 years of hell, the strikes, staff shortages and this are just icing on the cake.

The planning was very poor - these should have been introduced before London Bridge works started.

 

[D365]

The planning was very poor - these should have been introduced before London Bridge works started.

you have the train procurement process to thank for that - they were down to be introduced in 2012 originally.

 

[asylumxl]

Introduce them now when the number of trains have been cut significantly (and I don't just mean because of strikes but also half timetable was taken out for 4/5 years of London Bridge works), so passengers are struggling to get to work anyway and now we have constant cancellations due to new stock. It's already been 3 years of hell, the strikes, staff shortages and this are just icing on the cake.

The planning was very poor - these should have been introduced before London Bridge works started.

3 years? What about the regular core closures that came before?

The Thameslink Programme really seems to be dragging on. One hopes it will be worth it, but given they've already started compromising operationally (Sutton through trains) I'm not holding my breath.

 

[physics34]

The 24tph sure seems a pipedream even more now. Hopefully the faults get ironed out!

 

[Minstral25]

you have the train procurement process to thank for that - they were down to be introduced in 2012 originally.

Yes - another DfT failure and look what they specified in all that time - awful decision making we have to live with not them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

3 years? What about the regular core closures that came before?

The Thameslink Programme really seems to be dragging on. One hopes it will be worth it, but given they've already started compromising operationally (Sutton through trains) I'm not holding my breath.

Yes - its already been hinted by GTR that our Victoria trains will take 8-10 minutes longer and London Bridge 5 minutes longer (at Redhill) when the new timetable is introduced. Plus we get these trains that just don't work for our line. I can't see the pain from the TL programme as worthwhile currently for us although that is really off topic.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Is it still confirmed that there are no 700 workings this coming weekend?

 

[spark001uk]

Does anyone know unit numbers / faults of the two 700 failures in the core Monday evening?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it still confirmed that there are no 700 workings this coming weekend?

A post in wnxx yesterday states there will be 6 out on Saturday.

 

[JaJaWa]

The Guardian have written an article about the Class 700:

Cattle-class: are Thameslink's new 'tube-style' trains the future of commuting?
As the UK south-east’s rail nightmare continues, a new class of commuter trains has been quietly revealed – long, metro-style carriages without tables, built to accommodate as many standing passengers as possible. Is this the new normal?

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/07/thameslink-new-trains-tube-style-standing-up-future-commuting-london

 

[Class377/5]

Is it still confirmed that there are no 700 workings this coming weekend?

Unless something major has changed there's no working planned due to Core Block meaning altered workings.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Unless something major has changed there's no working planned due to Core Block meaning altered workings.

Thanks for clearing that up

 

[John1975]

A post in wnxx yesterday states there will be 6 out on Saturday.

700 workings for Saturday 10th September

(501)
5Y05 05+10 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W05 05.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W16 08.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W33 11.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W42 13.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W49 16.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W60 19.33 Brighton to Bedford
1W73 22.22 Bedford to Brighton
5W73 01+11 Brighton to Down Sidings

(502)
5W16 07+22 Three Bridges Up Depot to Gatwick Airport
2W16 07.38 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
1W23 10.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 13.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W51 15.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W60 18.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W67 21.10 Bedford to Brighton
2W82 00.10 Brighton to Bedford
5Y82 03+07 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

(503)
5Y09 06+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W09 06.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W20 09.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W37 12.24 Bedford to Three bridges
2W46 14.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W53 17.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W64 20.33 Brighton to Bedford
2W83 23.40 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W83 02+23 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Up Depot

(504)
5W12 05+30 Down Sidings to Brighton
2W12 06.02 Brighton to Bedford
1W19 09.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W30 12.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W47 14.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W56 17.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W63 20.10 Bedford to Brighton
2W78 23.05 Brighton to Bedford
5Y78 02+01 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

(506)
5Y03 04+52 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W03 05.20 Bedford to Brighton
1W14 08.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W31 10.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W40 13.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W47 16.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W58 19.05 Brighton to Bedford
1W71 21.52 Bedford to Brighton
5W71 00+44 Brighton to Three Bridges Up Depot

(507)
5W08 05+45 Three Bridges Up Depot to Brighton
1W08 06.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W25 09.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W34 11.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W41 14.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W52 17.35 Brighton to Bedford
1W65 20.40 Bedford to Brighton
2W80 23.37 Brighton to Bedford
5Y80 02+41 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

 

[tsr]

Unless something major has changed there's no working planned due to Core Block meaning altered workings.

I haven't looked the details up internally, but public info on RTT only shows a block on Sunday.

 

[John1975]

700 working for Sunday 11th September

(501)
5W16 07+35 Down Sidings to Brighton
1B98 08.04 Brighton to London Bridge
1T07 09.37 London Bridge to Brighton
1B10 11.14 Brighton to London Bridge
1T19 12.37 London Bridge to Brighton
1B22 14.14 Brighton to London Bridge
1T31 15.37 London Bridge to Brighton
1B34 17.14 Brighton to London Bridge
1T43 18.37 London Bridge to Brighton
1B46 20.14 Brighton to London Bridge
1T55 21.37 London Bridge to Brighton
5W71 23+30 Brighton to Down Sidings

 

[Class377/5]

I haven't looked the details up internally, but public info on RTT only shows a block on Sunday.

I'm going off what train planning told me in writing. Have asked for an update.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm going off what train planning told me in writing. Have asked for an update.

So maybe I need to replan my Saturday - via Bedford....

 

[Fincra5]

The Guardian have written an article about the Class 700:

Cattle-class: are Thameslink's new 'tube-style' trains the future of commuting?
As the UK south-east’s rail nightmare continues, a new class of commuter trains has been quietly revealed – long, metro-style carriages without tables, built to accommodate as many standing passengers as possible. Is this the new normal?

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/07/thameslink-new-trains-tube-style-standing-up-future-commuting-london

Not that I'm much of a fan of the 700s... but it does seem to be the way. The 345s are even more tube like, admittedly they go through the centre of London in a "tube system" for longer.