Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Bald Rick]

Hmm, another shambolic Thameslink day today, whatever the root cause it once again demonstrates the inherent fragility and unreliability of the Thameslink concept.

(And if it's not a Desiro S**tty failing then infrastructure failures in Sussex achieve the same outcome on a regular basis).

I think we all get the point now that you have a grump about Thameslink because it will upset your personal requirements, and will use any failure related to the Thameslink Programme to make out it is a badly flawed concept.

I could list every time a 319 has sat down somewhere on the route, or a 377 / 387 for that matter. Or every infrastructure failure on the GN (like yesterday at Welywn). Or train failure on the GN. Or any other issue on the GN that could affect the GN, or in future lines south of the river. But I don't because I don't have a personal agenda.

Similar negative arguments were made in 1986/7/8 about linking the MML and Brighton Main Line. And guess what? Thameslink as a concept has been an outstanding success. Growth on the line after opening was stunning and has remained good. It is one of the few railways in this country that makes a profit when taking all costs into account. It has made certain towns and cities on the line far better places to live than previously. And this has been demonstrated in other, new, cross City rail routes both in this country and across the world. Hence the proposal to link the GN into Thameslink as far back as 1989.

It is not perfect. No railway is. It may not suit your requirements. No railway can please everybody all the time. But it will transform the rail service on the GN lines for the better, overall. It's called progress.

Or perhaps we should go back to the glory days pre-1988 with an hourly DMU shuttle from Hitchin to Huntingdon, and not even that from Royston to Cambridge?

 

[Alteran Ancient]

The failures are a bit concerning, but nothing new. All stock has problems now and again - nothing is perfect. I'm assuming that most of the faults are teething issues relating to the TMS being a bit over-protective and/or the drivers being unfamiliar as to how to rectify some of these issues. This is certainly not worthy of reducing our conversations to expletives.

Whilst we're here, I'm not going to kick-off the DOO argument again, but for instances where the train does happen to fail in the tunnel (it does happen), wouldn't it be wise to have some form of on-board staff in the form of a Customer Service Rep or Train Manager, to re-assure passengers, assist in fault-finding and prevent passengers from using egress handles and straying onto the tracks? Surely the £150 a day to employ an OBS would be a net gain if issues are avoided and service recovery is potentially improved?

 

[Bald Rick]

The failures are a bit concerning, but nothing new. All stock has problems now and again - nothing is perfect. I'm assuming that most of the faults are teething issues relating to the TMS being a bit over-protective and/or the drivers being unfamiliar as to how to rectify some of these issues. This is certainly not worthy of reducing our conversations to expletives.

Whilst we're here, I'm not going to kick-off the DOO argument again, but for instances where the train does happen to fail in the tunnel (it does happen), wouldn't it be wise to have some form of on-board staff in the form of a Customer Service Rep or Train Manager, to re-assure passengers, assist in fault-finding and prevent passengers from using egress handles and straying onto the tracks? Surely the £150 a day to employ an OBS would be a net gain if issues are avoided and service recovery is potentially improved?

The service has worked very well through the same tunnels since 1983 with only a driver on board. And, frankly, one extra pair of hands doesn't make much difference when there's 1500 people on the train.

 

[westcoaster]

700103 07.38 Gatwick - Bedford and I was stuck on it for 1hr 30min n tunnel between STP and KTN, quite a surreal experience....

Any idea what the problem was announced as?

 

[Alteran Ancient]

The service has worked very well through the same tunnels since 1983 with only a driver on board. And, frankly, one extra pair of hands doesn't make much difference when there's 1500 people on the train.

I shouldn't have said "tunnel" specifically - I only used it as an example, because things can go wrong anywhere. I'd still feel safer in one of these situations if there was more than one member of staff responsible for the safety of potentially 1,500 people.

Probably a matter not for this thread, though.

 

[Triumph]

700103 07.38 Gatwick - Bedford and I was stuck on it for 1hr 30min n tunnel between STP and KTN, quite a surreal experience....

This caused massive delays at the Bedford end. After the 0954 departed the only TL train south until one at 1245 was one at 1103 and that was a 4 Car.
I know Bedford has EMT's but Flitwick/Harlington & Leagrave don't have anything.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Any idea what the problem was announced as?

Driver couldn't get brakes off, he would start but then brakes would apply. He was very apologetic and a bit embarrassed understandably. Tried a few reboots
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just got off 700113 which performed faultlessly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Driver couldn't get brakes off, he would start but then brakes would apply. He was very apologetic and a bit embarrassed understandably. Tried a few reboots
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just got off 700113 which performed faultlessly

So I've just got back from an eventful day on TL having originally gone with the plan of writing up a second review (based on the MML side). This morning, I travelled on 2W16 07.38 Gatwick - Bedford from Blackfriars and upon arrival at Farringdon (this made me chuckle), the train stopped, doors wouldn't open and so the driver moved it forward about a foot before the doors opened.

The problems arose however after leaving St Pancras when the unit sat down and after a short while, the driver apologised and announced he could not get the brakes off. After two or three attempted starts, the driver informed us that the brakes were coming on. Driver did a reboot, which put us all in almost complete darkness for a time. After the reboot, he walked through to the rear cab in an attempt to move the train back to St Pancras to detrain us all. After another reboot (and more darkness), he announced that he might have to carry out an emergency evacuation. Fortunately, everyone remained calm on the train. By 10.50 he managed to move the train to Kentish Town where he asked everyone to egress via the front 4 carriages.

Obviously this was unfortunate and messed up my day but I'm not going to write a bad review based on this one journey. At least I could put the time to good use trying out different seats and take a few snaps.

700113 worked faultlessly from Bedford to Blackfriars, the ride was superb and the automatic door opening (in the core) was right on cue.

 

[westcoaster]

Driver couldn't get brakes off, he would start but then brakes would apply. He was very apologetic and a bit embarrassed understandably. Tried a few reboots
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just got off 700113 which performed faultlessly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So I've just got back from an eventful day on TL having originally gone with the plan of writing up a second review (based on the MML side). This morning, I travelled on 2W16 07.38 Gatwick - Bedford from Blackfriars and upon arrival at Farringdon (this made me chuckle), the train stopped, doors wouldn't open and so the driver moved it forward about a foot before the doors opened.

The problems arose however after leaving St Pancras when the unit sat down and after a short while, the driver apologised and announced he could not get the brakes off. After two or three attempted starts, the driver informed us that the brakes were coming on. Driver did a reboot, which put us all in almost complete darkness for a time. After the reboot, he walked through to the rear cab in an attempt to move the train back to St Pancras to detrain us all. After another reboot (and more darkness), he announced that he might have to carry out an emergency evacuation. Fortunately, everyone remained calm on the train. By 10.50 he managed to move the train to Kentish Town where he asked everyone to egress via the front 4 carriages.

Obviously this was unfortunate and messed up my day but I'm not going to write a bad review based on this one journey. At least I could put the time to good use trying out different seats and take a few snaps.

700113 worked faultlessly from Bedford to Blackfriars, the ride was superb and the automatic door opening (in the core) was right on cue.

Just one thing drivers release the doors at all stations, no automation just yet.

 

[asylumxl]

I could list every time a 319 has sat down somewhere on the route, or a 377 / 387 for that matter. Or every infrastructure failure on the GN (like yesterday at Welywn). Or train failure on the GN. Or any other issue on the GN that could affect the GN, or in future lines south of the river. But I don't because I don't have a personal agenda.

Wait. Perhaps I'm mistaking you for somebody else, but I was under the impression you work or worked for GTR? Either way, you seem to take any criticism of GTR or the 700s somewhat too personally.

I understand that disruption can be caused by a multitude of factors, either by a single factor in isolation or by a combination of factors, and that operationally TL is rather complex. I also feel that most seasoned passengers can appreciate that, but unfortunately such knowledge does not help much when they are unable to reach their destination.

GTRs PPM has been consistently poor. While the reasons for this can be disputed, the fact that they have failed to meet their minimum target stipulated in their contract cannot. The DfT has moved the goal posts once already, the question is how far will they continue to do so before enough is enough?

At the end of the day, the concerns of many regular travelers are not completely unfounded. I can understand Bramling's frustration, even I feel he is perhaps rather liberal with the doom and gloom.

Progress is great, but it does somewhat feel like the whole programme is starting to be rushed along. As they say, you shouldn't (try and) run (too many trains) before you can walk.

 

[Class2ldn]

Just one thing drivers release the doors at all stations, no automation just yet.

I think he might mean the actual auto opening of the doors in the core after we've released them

 

[Class377/5]

I think he might mean the actual auto opening of the doors in the core after we've released them

That's a manual release. Auto release requires no drivers interaction (unless stopping points missed).

EDIT:

700111 is doing Brighton London Bridge services all day.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

700111 1B98 08.04 BTN - LBG passed me 6L
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I forgot to ask, is today the first Sunday passenger working of the class?

 

[Bald Rick]

Wait. Perhaps I'm mistaking you for somebody else, but I was under the impression you work or worked for GTR? Either way, you seem to take any criticism of GTR or the 700s somewhat too personally.

I don't work for GTR (and never have) or have anything to do with the Thameslink Programme, although I do know some people that do.

I'm not taking it personally - some of the criticism is fair game, for example the seat pitch on the 700s (although it is no worse to me than airline seats on 319s, countless DMUs, and every A319 / A320 / B737 I have been on). However, taking a balanced view of the whole project (and not just the effects on me), it is clear to me that the new trains and the Thameslink Programme as a whole is going to be beneficial to a healthy majority of the passengers who use the routes concerned.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Cor, over a day gone past and no new posts.... Must be a good day for GTR services today

 

[Deepgreen]

Apologies if I am late to the party with this, but I saw my first 700/0 at Blackfriars. last Friday - 700003, in platform 1, and presumably on test/mileage accumulation.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Apologies if I am late to the party with this, but I saw my first 700/0 at Blackfriars. last Friday - 700003, in platform 1, and presumably on test/mileage accumulation.

Must be on mileage accumulation as I saw it out on test 2-3 weeks ago on the MML. I wonder if it was being tested around the Sutton loop in readiness for introduction to service of the sub-class to this route?

 

[asylumxl]

Cor, over a day gone past and no new posts.... Must be a good day for GTR services today

The website was showing delays through South Croydon earlier due to an earlier broken down train :P.

 

[jon0844]

Cor, over a day gone past and no new posts.... Must be a good day for GTR services today

Everyone is stuck on a broken down train in a tunnel without phone signal?!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Everyone is stuck on a broken down train in a tunnel without phone signal?!

That would not have been funny last Saturday....:-x

 

[Class377/5]

Must be on mileage accumulation as I saw it out on test 2-3 weeks ago on the MML. I wonder if it was being tested around the Sutton loop in readiness for introduction to service of the sub-class to this route?

Testing for the loop has been done separate from the fault free running due to various reasons.

Initial testing on the Loop was done with a 12 car as the systems are the same so if it works on a 12 car it will work on an 8 car.

The 700/0 have been out in force with up to 4 out at a time for commissioning. They are to be introduced soon sowhole bunch of them are going through the commissioning process. 700002 has already completed its fault free running.

 

[ainsworth74]

Or perhaps we should go back to the glory days pre-1988 with an hourly DMU shuttle from Hitchin to Huntingdon, and not even that from Royston to Cambridge?

Hard to imagine such a thing today!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Testing for the loop has been done separate from the fault free running due to various reasons.

Initial testing on the Loop was done with a 12 car as the systems are the same so if it works on a 12 car it will work on an 8 car.

The 700/0 have been out in force with up to 4 out at a time for commissioning. They are to be introduced soon sowhole bunch of them are going through the commissioning process. 700002 has already completed its fault free running.

Great, thanks for the update

 

[samuelmorris]

700104 and 700112 today, one in each direction, and I think the first northbound 700 I've had south of the core. No faults to speak of, doors opened automatically where they should, PIS was working on both sets, and I didn't even suffer more than a minute or two's delay on the way back this evening despite the issues on the MML. One thing I did notice is that on the unit where the A/C was working very hard, arguably cooler than it needed to be, the duct by your feet on the window seat was incredibly cold - deeply unpleasant to touch like leaning against a chiller unit in a supermarket. I assume there's ventilation ducting in there? It certainly wouldn't have been outside air doing that with today's temperatures.

Another thing I noticed - it's been a very long time since I've seen TfL status info on a 700 - I think I may only have had it on the unit from London Bridge the very first time I rode one. I had assumed due to the fact I was in the core, where I suppose there's no time for it (IMO there still should be), or that I was heading away from London. No excuse for why it wouldn't be showing going from East Croydon into Blackfriars this evening though, yet all other parts of the PIS were operating correctly. Has this idea been done away with? This is arguably more useful info, at least in the relevant places, than which toilet is free and a minutely reminder about the use of CCTV, in my opinion.

 

[The Box Photter]

Spotted 700015 in the sidings at Cricklewood tonight, along with 700006. Both seemed to be powered up.

Touch wood, the 700/1s seem to be settling in, although 102 still doesn't seem to have a functioning PIS.

I'm even beginning to get used to the seats.

Maybe they'll grow on me ... like mould

 

[samuelmorris]

The seats definitely have an air of placebo about them I think - a couple of times I've sat in them, become conscious of discomfort in my back and thought 'perhaps these aren't as comfortable as I thought' - then by the end of my 40 minute or so journey I've completely forgotten about them as I had no sign of discomfort at all. Firm upright seating suits me though, so perhaps others may not get the same experience.

 

[theblackwatch]

Six units recorded in passenger service today - 700102/108/109/111/112/113. The seventh diagram was cancelled on the run I saw it on (or didn't see it!).

 

[jon0844]

In very small text you can see the last update time for TfL information, so I'm not sure why it can't be displayed in the core where it is perhaps more important than anywhere else.

Are there any plans to show similar information for other connections from key stations? In other words, other TL, GN, Southern train departures and platform numbers?

 

[Class377/5]

In very small text you can see the last update time for TfL information, so I'm not sure why it can't be displayed in the core where it is perhaps more important than anywhere else.

Are there any plans to show similar information for other connections from key stations? In other words, other TL, GN, Southern train departures and platform numbers?

The problem is the TfL is fed off a 3G (I think it's 3G), something you don't get in the Core. Plus the info side of things like passenger loading is switched off as it takes a few minutes to work things out (and pesky people move down the train )

As for future, this is a basic PIS planned. There are plans a foot but right now all attention is on getting the basics right.

 

[jon0844]

It doesn't have to be straight away for sure, but as long as it's a plan. And I hope they can update the system to 4G, and ideally one day someone will bung leaky feeders in the core to give phone coverage to all.

I'm still waiting for someone to fix the Wi-Fi service at St Pancras. Been months now.

 

[asylumxl]

Robert spoke too soon about a quiet day, as someone was hit by a train at Harpenden earlier. Reasonably long delays and trains stacked up on the MML for a while.