Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[gimmea50anyday]

Guys, is there any real need?

 

[Dave1987]

Well I'm pretty certain that the majority of the population works around a 35-40 week. But most people do either 9-5 ish or consistent hours each day. Train crew on the other hand along with a lot of other grades in the railway do very very late nights and very very early mornings often flipping between the two every other week. As a result of this you have no body clock, sometimes your body doesn't know whether it should be awake or asleep. But it's part of the job and we do it. But for someone to turn around and say we have it easy is down right offensive to be honest.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well I'm pretty certain that the majority of the population works around a 35-40 week. But most people do either 9-5 ish or consistent hours each day. Train crew on the other hand along with a lot of other grades in the railway do very very late nights and very very early mornings often flipping between the two every other week. As a result of this you have no body clock, sometimes your body doesn't know whether it should be awake or asleep. But it's part of the job and we do it. But for someone to turn around and say we have it easy is down right offensive to be honest.

I'd certainly agree that the various body clock issues can be a right pain but there are plenty of other workers subject to similar conditions - lorry/bus drivers, nurses, doctors, police etc etc. The hours and general working arrangements are not some recent event.

 

[bnm]

Well I'm pretty certain that the majority of the population works around a 35-40 week.

65% of men and 30% of women work more than 40 hours a week. The average is 39.6 hours. So yes, a majority work less than 40 hours a week, but it's a very slim majority.

But it's part of the job and we do it. But for someone to turn around and say we have it easy is down right offensive to be honest.

Being offended by shadows there. No one has said that here.

 

[Antman]

I'd certainly agree that the various body clock issues can be a right pain but there are plenty of other workers subject to similar conditions - lorry/bus drivers, nurses, doctors, police etc etc. The hours and general working arrangements are not some recent event.

Exactly, I was on the buses for years.

 

[Harbornite]

Oh come on, one staff member on a bus or train is quite different to suggesting the same for an aircraft.
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So you're quite happy with DOO on lines without a third rail?

When did I say that? :roll:

 

[bnm]

I bow to your insider knowledge, quite different to what I have heard actually from the inside.

Stopped last week from boarding chosen train at Paddington with a valid ticket. No longer posting about these issues though. I just complain to GWR/London Travelwatch and rake in the RTVs and free passes.

We are off topic now though.

 

[bb21]

The RMT and other unions in part as if any member of rail staff is disciplined the RMT or other union get involved to defend their comrade no matter how wrong they are and so most of the time it's not worth the hassle for a TOC to deal with.

Wow, to think that I was struggling to find an example this morning to demonstrate people talking utter horse manure.

I am no fan of the RMT, or any other railway union (maybe not TSSA) but even I find this rant against the unions laughable.

Criticise the unions all you want, but please do not make stuff up.

Also Paddington staff for example could be retrained over and over and they'd still make everything up as they know best...

I bow to your insider knowledge, quite different to what I have heard actually from the inside.
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So if you were working for ASLEF, which high profile battle would you choose to flight?

I asked the question previously but didn't get an answer. Perhaps I need to ask it 14 times! Not that I have any technical faults here.

So why didn't they go for the last minute injunction? Did they think they would lose?

Oi, you are no Paxman.

But even if you were, you may still never get your answer with this lot.
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Stopped last week from boarding chosen train at Paddington with a valid ticket. No longer posting about these issues though. I just complain to GWR/London Travelwatch and rake in the RTVs and free passes.

We are off topic now though.

All depends on what training they had.

I won't say much more than that but from what I heard, I wouldn't be confident Paddington staff in general would know more than what they did before.

Obviously I am happy to discuss things in more detail in private.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Excuse me whilst I get the violins out but some people have to do 9-10 hours or more 5-6 days a week just to get a decent wage.

I am not sure that's relevant. Wages tend to be paid in line with the amount of training needing, the amount of risk, the amount of responsibility etc. Train drivers have a job that involves lots of responsibility, they are responsible for transporting 100's of people around safely. They have to do a lot of training, they have to work unsocial hours, they have to be careful what they drink and when etc. They deserve a salary that reflects these factors.
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During this whole dispute it has amazed me that the RMT has not made more of the safety of the drivers closing doors. Having read the RAIB reports about trap and drag incidents it appears to me that Driver operated trains have more incidents of this than trains with guards. In addition of the two recent cases involving guards one is in the prison and the other has been charged. I can find no evidence of a driver being charged (no doubt someone will correct me).

The RAIB reports in general also seem to state that the drivers should have seen the person that was trapped but didn't. If this is the case why are drivers charged? The implication surely is that it is accepted that trap and drag incidents will happen with DOO and we have to accept it. If guard make mistakes that appears to be less acceptable.

Incidentially it is worth pointing out that whilst there are more trap and drag incidencts investigated by the RAIB with DOO trains, they are a smaller percentage of all trains run.

Ultimately though both forms of dispatch seem unsafe as in many cases guards cannot watch the outside of the train as it moves away so if they have missed something they cannot correct that error.

 

[Antman]

When did I say that? :roll:

Well why did you mention the third rail?
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I am not sure that's relevant. Wages tend to be paid in line with the amount of training needing, the amount of risk, the amount of responsibility etc. Train drivers have a job that involves lots of responsibility, they are responsible for transporting 100's of people around safely. They have to do a lot of training, they have to work unsocial hours, they have to be careful what they drink and when etc. They deserve a salary that reflects these factors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
During this whole dispute it has amazed me that the RMT has not made more of the safety of the drivers closing doors. Having read the RAIB reports about trap and drag incidents it appears to me that Driver operated trains have more incidents of this than trains with guards. In addition of the two recent cases involving guards one is in the prison and the other has been charged. I can find no evidence of a driver being charged (no doubt someone will correct me).

The RAIB reports in general also seem to state that the drivers should have seen the person that was trapped but didn't. If this is the case why are drivers charged? The implication surely is that it is accepted that trap and drag incidents will happen with DOO and we have to accept it. If guard make mistakes that appears to be less acceptable.

Incidentially it is worth pointing out that whilst there are more trap and drag incidencts investigated by the RAIB with DOO trains, they are a smaller percentage of all trains run.

Ultimately though both forms of dispatch seem unsafe as in many cases guards cannot watch the outside of the train as it moves away so if they have missed something they cannot correct that error.

I'm glad you mentioned that last point, I accept there is some safety advantage with a guard in the rear cab who can lean out of the window slightly and see the train off the platform but a guard doing the doors from the public area of the train has no window to lean out of and is oblivious to anything that might happen as the train leaves the station.

 

[infobleep]

I'd certainly agree that the various body clock issues can be a right pain but there are plenty of other workers subject to similar conditions - lorry/bus drivers, nurses, doctors, police etc etc. The hours and general working arrangements are not some recent event.

No one is saying they are. Nor are they saying other jobs don't have similar conditions. Just that they don't have it easy. I'm inclined to agree with them.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[bb21]

Well why did you mention the third rail?

I think you are reading too much into what he said.

I'm glad you mentioned that last point, I accept there is some safety advantage with a guard in the rear cab who can lean out of the window slightly and see the train off the platform but a guard doing the doors from the public area of the train has no window to lean out of and is oblivious to anything that might happen as the train leaves the station.

Yes, madness.

 

[infobleep]

Oi, you are no Paxman.

But even if you were, you may still never get your answer with this lot. [emoji38]

Still I enjoy trying and if they don't answer the question it just proves they don't want to listen to the opposite view and wish to out their fingers in their ears. I prefer to listen to all sides of a debate. Clearly some don't.

Oh and which high profile battle should ASLEF fight next? Care to answer XDM? You did after all me reference to it some days and post ago. [emoji38]

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All depends on what training they had.

I won't say much more than that but from what I heard, I wouldn't be confident Paddington staff in general would know more than what they did before.

Obviously I am happy to discuss things in more detail in private.

Perhaps giving out RTVs and passes is cheaper than the training costs. I know it's heading off topic but I know that TOCs wish to keep staffing costs lower so why not skimp on training. I'm sure Govia would wish to do such things as well. Has that helped being it back on topic? :grin:

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[tsr]

I'm glad you mentioned that last point, I accept there is some safety advantage with a guard in the rear cab who can lean out of the window slightly and see the train off the platform but a guard doing the doors from the public area of the train has no window to lean out of and is oblivious to anything that might happen as the train leaves the station.

Nope! I used to think that myself, once upon a time, but time and frontline experience has shown me times that conductors have stopped dispatch from inside the saloon due to seeing that an unsafe situation has developed after they have safely completed safety checks, closed their local door and given 2 on the bell/buzzer.

In fact, I would suggest that a quick poll of Southern conductors would actually suggest that it's surprisingly common. Any conductor with, say, on average, a couple of years' service or more, particularly on some of the school run routes where certain schools' pupils have no idea whatsoever about railway safety, will probably have done it.

Granted, it's very certainly not as safe as a view from a droplight, but there's a surprising amount you can see and indeed hear within the saloon. There is a very good reason why conductors are always meant to keep a good lookout from any dispatch position they use.

Conductors don't just dispatch trains from the cab if it's busy, anyway. You do it if it's the safest way to do so, just like the rules which should be applied to any element of dispatch. Sometimes, for example, you think you can clear the platform of schoolkids, and it's better for you to be in the saloon because a person who's visible as soon as people board is likely to result in a) better behaviour and b) better viewing of body language to see anyone who's shuffling off to try to cause trouble. But then one of their mates darts out of an alleyway and leans against the train, knocking on the windows, and because you're keeping a good lookout or you heard an odd noise, you notice and can give 1 on the bell. In such a situation it may still have been best not to use a droplight but safety isn't massively compromised.

But sometimes the train can be half-empty but the stations are like a zoo because it's 0200 on a Saturday, and it just so happens that an extra level of peripheral vision around the train is needed because you've got a fair few people you can actually see staggering around. You can still patrol the train, even check tickets or whatever you need to do, between stops. As a rough benchmark, provided nothing major is kicking off that you need to deal with (and then you need to be there anyway, so timekeeping may go out of the window), it takes about 45 seconds to 1 minute to walk through even a reasonably busy coach and make yourself visible. But it's sometimes better to be in the saloon because you can see "problems" as soon as they board!

(Now tell me a fully-trained, experienced and diligent conductor is too expensive...)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Its quite simple. Everything comes at a cost. Too often the cost -benefit and the associated improvement in income is often overlooked. This is what those of us on the shop-floor so to speak see day in, day out that the pen pushers dont see...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So just to be clear, we can't comment on what you say because we don't have first experience of it? Like, say, someone who doesn't work on the railway couldn't comment on what's said by those of us who do.

For heavens sake, can you not read what my posting actually said...

I was making the statement that I was in my 30s in that 1970 time period, so saw what occurred with adult eyes and comprehension. The fact that I then said that some contributors to this thread were not even born or were just children at that time in no way precludes them making any comment in the year 2016.

 

[jon0844]

Stopped last week from boarding chosen train at Paddington with a valid ticket. No longer posting about these issues though. I just complain to GWR/London Travelwatch and rake in the RTVs and free passes.

We are off topic now though.

I don't know why you haven't been given a free season ticket by now. Would be cheaper in the long run surely!

 

[JamesTT]

I always do the best job I can. You've attempted to make this point so many times on this thread. The fact that some guards are not good at customer service (not their primary duty, for the nth time) doesn't mean we should all be fired. In the same way that bad social workers, police officers, doctors, bankers, teachers, cleaners, pilots don't mean we should get rid of all of them.

I'm honestly bewildered by your reliance on this argument. The whole crux of this issue is that safety will be compromised. To a lesser extent, customer service, particularly when trains operate without OBS. If you don't see a problem with the introduction of the OBS role you acknowledge that you think it's fine for trains to run completely DOO. Then there will be no contribution towards safety OR customer service from the OBS that isn't required on the service. Since you're OK with that, why do you care about the level of customer service a minority of guards give currently?

I think that it is best to have a 2nd person on the train. I think the evidence from Thameslink, Great Northern and Southern Metro services show little or no issues with drivers closing doors.
As far as the extra safety guards provided yes of course they do and I do not doubt this and conductor worked services are safer, but the odds of getting injured or worse are statiscally still tiny on a service without guard. I will reiterate safety should of course be the default concern of all railway staff, but what is wrong with encouraging your colleagues doing the best in all the areas of their role, especially customer service. So in the event of more disputes there is even more public support, because they have seen the added value provided by travelling on a train with a conductor

 

[Bantamzen]

I have never seen a thread with so much union/TrainCrew bashing. This is supposed to be an enthusiasts forum. A Minority are certainly enthusiastic about bashing the actual people who work on the railway.

Indeed. If it had remained a debate purely about the rights and wrongs of the ongoing dispute it would have been fair enough. But it has been descending into an envy dispute, with some lamenting others for having different conditions for different jobs. Its something I see too much of these days. I often get told its unfair that I work flexible hours in the public sector when others in the private don't get that. What they don't see is that I have worked thousands of hours more than I've been paid, and during some projects easily worked 9-10 hours a day 6 and even 7 days a week when needed. I do what I have to do when I have to do it.

I fully support the conditions train crews get / demand. I honestly believe it is fully justified for a job that is so essential to keep this country running, as well as one with such responsibility. If people are so envious of what they consider generous conditions the best advice would be to apply for future positions on the rails.

 

[Bellbell]

For heavens sake, can you not read what my posting actually said...

I was making the statement that I was in my 30s in that 1970 time period, so saw what occurred with adult eyes and comprehension. The fact that I then said that some contributors to this thread were not even born or were just children at that time in no way precludes them making any comment in the year 2016.

I can read perfectly well. You said we couldn't comment in the same way you could. That's fine, you're right, I wasn't even born so I didn't witness it through any eyes, adult or child. But by extension, unless you work, now, on the railway, you can't comment in the same way we can.

 

[Goldfish62]

That noted socialist Boris Johnson put conductors on his new buses for safety reasons, because it was considered unsafe to have an open platform without someone there to monitor it.

What was your point again?

They weren't conductors. They were customer assistants whose primary role was to prevent people boarding and alighting the bus in hazardous situations. This was of course completely insane and they've now gone, having been replaced by a thing called a door.

 

[Deepgreen]

I have never seen a thread with so much union/TrainCrew bashing. This is supposed to be an enthusiasts forum. A Minority are certainly enthusiastic about bashing the actual people who work on the railway.

There are many enthusiasts who use this forum, but it is actually a forum for the discussion of railway topics - by anyone who chooses to take part, and of any opinion. The number of posts leaning one way or another will only reflect opinions among the users. Also, as has been pointed out before, beware of equating comments supposedly 'bashing' unions with 'bashing' staff - they are not the same thing.

 

[Goldfish62]

All buses running with the open platform still have the conductors, because safety.

All the customer assistants were made redundant last month. Only a minority of routes had them anyway, and not all day.

 

[Tetchytyke]

All the customer assistants were made redundant last month. Only a minority of routes had them anyway, and not all day.

Yes, I've realised that now, it was a piece of news I missed. Although what I said is still true, as now none of the expensive white elephant NB4Ls now run with an open platform, which was the whole point of blowing all that money on them in the first place.

Interesting, of course, how people lose their jobs to pay for the mistakes that management make. The NB4L was a waste of money but the TfL management responsible for the omnishambles still have their six figure salaries and six figure bonuses, and the less said about our Foreign Secretary the better.

I'm sure there's a relevance to the current thread somewhere. Connex Charlie couldn't run a hot bath and it's his staff, not him, who lose their jobs to pay for it.

 

[Dave1987]

There are many enthusiasts who use this forum, but it is actually a forum for the discussion of railway topics - by anyone who chooses to take part, and of any opinion. The number of posts leaning one way or another will only reflect opinions among the users. Also, as has been pointed out before, beware of equating comments supposedly 'bashing' unions with 'bashing' staff - they are not the same thing.

i was once told the staff are the union as without the staff the union has no purpose, so I can see exactly why some would consider an attack on the union a direct attack on staff as well.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think that it is best to have a 2nd person on the train. I think the evidence from Thameslink, Great Northern and Southern Metro services show little or no issues with drivers closing doors.

DOO is more than about who closes the Goddamn doors though. Yes, a driver closing the doors using CCTV is "safe enough" and, yes, guards will occasionally make mistakes too. But DOO is about more than the doors, it is about having a second person on board who is safety trained and can deal with things when they go wrong.

First Capital Connect were convicted of Health and Safety law breaches at Kentish Town, and their safety failures were directly related to the fact that there was one member of safety staff on a broken down 12-carriage train and that one member of staff couldn't cope by himself.

The problem, of course, is that FCC's "punishment" for their criminal behaviour was a measly £75,000. No managers were punished in the criminal courts and no managers lost their jobs or their bonuses. £75,000 is pocket money for a TOC. So where is the incentive to do the job properly? It's cheaper to run an unsafe service- nothing has changed since this incident- and pay the fines.

 

[embers25]

I bow to your insider knowledge, quite different to what I have heard actually from the inside.

All depends on what training they had.

I won't say much more than that but from what I heard, I wouldn't be confident Paddington staff in general would know more than what they did before.

Obviously I am happy to discuss things in more detail in private.

Try going through Paddington, Reading or Oxford with an off peak ticket in peak and see how far you get. bnm is not the exception. His treatment is the norm. They also still insist on posting on their screens that all off peak tickets are not valid until certain times which is complete rubbish. In any other profession the gateline staff would all be fired and the individual station would be dealt with but not the rail industry. I'm fine to be challenged but when they refuse to check the rules for my ticket, that is not acceptable but commonplace at the above stations. Why is it deemed acceptable for most TOCs and ATOC and a fair few rail employees to treat their customers with such contempt?

 

[Antman]

Indeed. If it had remained a debate purely about the rights and wrongs of the ongoing dispute it would have been fair enough. But it has been descending into an envy dispute, with some lamenting others for having different conditions for different jobs. Its something I see too much of these days. I often get told its unfair that I work flexible hours in the public sector when others in the private don't get that. What they don't see is that I have worked thousands of hours more than I've been paid, and during some projects easily worked 9-10 hours a day 6 and even 7 days a week when needed. I do what I have to do when I have to do it.

I fully support the conditions train crews get / demand. I honestly believe it is fully justified for a job that is so essential to keep this country running, as well as one with such responsibility. If people are so envious of what they consider generous conditions the best advice would be to apply for future positions on the rails.

When you say envy I think you mean little sympathy for the industrial action which is not quite the same thing?
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They weren't conductors. They were customer assistants whose primary role was to prevent people boarding and alighting the bus in hazardous situations. This was of course completely insane and they've now gone, having been replaced by a thing called a door.

No it wasn't completely insane, it was actually something that was very popular. Anyway it's not relevant to this thread so I shall say no more.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is it deemed acceptable for most TOCs and ATOC and a fair few rail employees to treat their customers with such contempt?

I have no idea what is going on at Paddington because I don't use it, but this attitude usually comes from the top. It's nothing to do with people on the ground, who generally just do what they are told to do. Gateline staff don't control PIS- the managers do- so your anger should be aimed slightly higher up the food chain.

 

[Deepgreen]

i was once told the staff are the union as without the staff the union has no purpose, so I can see exactly why some would consider an attack on the union a direct attack on staff as well.

Clearly unions require staff to exist. However, the point has been made on this thread that the public appears largely to be on the side of the staff, but that the RMT's campaign has been woeful and has let the members (staff) down. Thus it is perfectly reasonable to 'bash' the union for its poor performance, while supporting the staff.