Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[HLE]

Interesting discussion but kinda going off the point? Predictions as to when we will see the first test run and first in service run on the Nuneaton to Coventry route?

Haha if the last couple of weeks are anything to go by, it'll be next Christmas.

More cancellations through lack of driver than the rest of the year put together.
But then if the railway relies on RDW....

Whole job stopped on the branch until tomorrow as of 15:30 today.

 

[YorkshireBear]

There will be a talk on the D-Train from Vivarail in Leeds next month at the PWI section meeting.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons:

Page 13

"Railway

• St. Bees Railway - extension to the existing St Bees Loop further south by approximately 285m in length. This extended loop is required to ensure that one NuGen charter train is able to stop within the extended loop, whilst another NuGen charter train or scheduled train passes through St Bees."

So what is a NuGen charter train?

Northern will not have enough units to lease to NuGen in the peaks and the 37/MK II rakes would not have the required capacity.

I wonder what you could get on the cheap that you would be able to cram large amounts of bodies into for a short commute on a private charter?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not wishing to turn yet another thread into one about 442s, but some have apparently been earmarked for conversion to LHCS for charter purposes...perhaps a good fit?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There will be a talk on the D-Train from Vivarail in Leeds next month at the PWI section meeting.

Perhaps a progress report on matters?

 

[D365]

There will be a talk on the D-Train from Vivarail in Leeds next month at the PWI section meeting.

Sadly I believe membership fees must be paid, else I would consider attending that talk.

 

[Clip]

Perhaps a progress report on matters?

He made the posting around 11:30 and stated that it will be discussed next month.

What progress do you think has been made within his post on next month and yoru post on asking?

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Not wishing to turn yet another thread into one about 442s, but some have apparently been earmarked for conversion to LHCS for charter purposes...perhaps a good fit?

My understanding is that NuGen want minimal seating/maximum standing to serve the plant. Lightweight, nippy(ish) 230s with longitudinal seats would seem a perfect fit.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sadly I believe membership fees must be paid, else I would consider attending that talk.

Talks are open to non members. Membership is expected for contimual attendances.

 

[D365]

Talks are open to non members. Membership is expected for contimual attendances.

Thanks for clearing that up, I'll keep it in mind.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

He made the posting around 11:30 and stated that it will be discussed next month.

What progress do you think has been made within his post on next month and yoru post on asking?

You sadly have not understood my posting. All I asked for was a progress report on what was said at the meeting AFTER it is held in November, as that could be interesting for those on this thread who cannot attend the said meeting.

Money proves no obstacle to me in terms of subscriptions, but such is the current poor health that I currently suffer from, that attendance at the said meeting would not be advisable for me on medical grounds.

I trust that this posting clarifies matters.

 

[WatcherZero]

• St. Bees Railway - extension to the existing St Bees Loop further south by approximately 285m in length. This extended loop is required to ensure that one NuGen charter train is able to stop within the extended loop, whilst another NuGen charter train or scheduled train passes through St Bees."

So what is a NuGen charter train?

NuGen is the Toshiba subsidiary set up to build Moorside Nuclear power station.

 

[edwin_m]

NuGen is the Toshiba subsidiary set up to build Moorside Nuclear power station.

The intention is to bring in some of the workforce by train - not sure if only during construction or during operation as well. Given that the railway needs enhancing to provide capacity for the construction material trains, allowing for passenger trains too is probably not much extra cost.

 

[Roose]

November Modern Railways article on East Midlands Trains has their MD saying that the Class 230 may be part of the solution to the company's capacity problems. (Previously it mentions routes experiencing overcrowding including...the Matlock branch and Grimsby to Lincoln route.

They "wouldn't be appropriate for all our routes but could potentially run on some of our routes", he is quoted as saying.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

November Modern Railways article on East Midlands Trains has their MD saying that the Class 230 may be part of the solution to the company's capacity problems. (Previously it mentions routes experiencing overcrowding including...the Matlock branch and Grimsby to Lincoln route.

They "wouldn't be appropriate for all our routes but could potentially run on some of our routes", he is quoted as saying.

How many units in total would be needed to cover both those two routes mentioned?

 

[Chester1]

How many units in total would be needed to cover both those two routes mentioned?

I am not sure how the services link together (both services end in Newark). A rough guess based on the currently frequency and journey time is 10 + 2 spares. They only have about 70 D stock therefore it would be a good start.

 

[The Ham]

I am not sure how the services link together (both services end in Newark). A rough guess based on the currently frequency and journey time is 10 + 2 spares. They only have about 70 D stock therefore it would be a good start.

Would there be a case for an increase in frequency and/or longer trains in the peaks?

Even if not at the start of the franchise, depending on how long it takes to deliver 12 units, there could be an option for more after any ordered for Wales/GWR (with those also being offered any spare units left over on a first come first served basis). As I don't think that those franchises after (XC, TSGN and Chiltern) would be overly interested (and even if Chiltern were, they are about 2 years after GWR).

Of course, there is very much a question of what will be within the HLOS for CP6.

 

[M7R]

I'm not sure how it would work unless you split the Matlock route again at Derby, as between Nottingham and Derby some of the route between long Eaton and Derby is 75 mph and the class 156s do get up to line speed I believe for some of it, and I'm not sure the quicker acceleration will offset that. Having said that they also seem to get a fair old lick on between Derby and Ambergate junction, so keeping out the way of the express trains could be fun.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

November Modern Railways article on East Midlands Trains has their MD saying that the Class 230 may be part of the solution to the company's capacity problems. (Previously it mentions routes experiencing overcrowding including...the Matlock branch and Grimsby to Lincoln route.

They "wouldn't be appropriate for all our routes but could potentially run on some of our routes", he is quoted as saying.

I wonder if an MD of a TOC would be blissfully unaware of the line speeds of other units, noting what M7R has said in his posting above.

 

[47802]

Personally I'm surprised he has made those comments, the EMT franchise as a whole isn't a poverty spec franchise especially when compared to Northern, I would have thought they would be looking to take either or both some of the cascaded units that are potentially available or new stock you would imagine they would be able to get a good price on a additional order from either CAF or Stadler.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....some of the route between long Eaton and Derby is 75 mph....

etc.

I chose a random service on RealTimeTrains to base this on. This is a service timed as a Sprinter DMU - today's 2A30.

WTT leave Long Eaton 11.46 1/2
Pass Derby Way WS 1156

Distance 7.6375 miles in 9.5 minutes. If my maths is correct that is timed for an AVERAGE speed start to pass of 48.23mph.

The question (to which I do not have an answer) is not what is the top speed of the vehicle, but what would the AVERAGE speed for a D-Train be over the same route? Until there is a meaningful answer to that (and all such similar comparisons elsewhere) then all suggestions of unsuitability, based purely on the theoretical maximum speed, are nothing more than conjecture.

 

[The Planner]

It is really 1155 as there is box time in it, so its 8½ minutes at an average of 54mph.

 

[sd0733]

Even then there is also the dwell time at stations to consider, none of 153/156/158 in the emt fleet are particularly quick at loading and unloading especially where wheelchairs, pushchairs, luggage etc are involved so the wide doored 230 should save further time there particularly at peak times where line capacity is at it's most precious.

 

[M7R]

It is really 1155 as there is box time in it, so its 8½ minutes at an average of 54mph.

This sounds more like it, I'm no expert on the area so I don't know exactly where Derby Way WS is, and I don't go on this service every day but maybe once a month or so, But you get checked down as you go past pride park and then normally crawl past the Serco and EMT depots, some times having to wait a route into Derby station so depending where you timing point is that would artificially lower the average speed, the flat out bit is normally from Long Eaton to just after Spondon. Also it would be better looking at a week day service as the Sunday service round here is a little thinner than week days, (a bug bear as it means taking the train from Attenborough my local station on a Sunday needs some careful planning, but even a week day is only 1tph apart from a few extra in the am and evening peak, but I digress).

 

[The Planner]

Way and Works Junction

 

[Harpers Tate]

How about this, then:
It's 7.7 miles or so. Let's suppose (for the sake of conjecture) that a well-performing DMU that has stopped at Long Eaton gets up to 75mph and can sustain that speed for four of the 7.7 miles before it needs to decelerate again.
If another unit were limited to 60mph over the same four miles, but otherwise had EXACTLY the same loading and acceleration characteristics, it would take it 48 seconds longer to make the entire trip. Material? I don't know, but it doesn't sound like much, and does not create, in my mind, a total embargo for these trains in this very specific context.

 

[Kneedown]

I wonder if an MD of a TOC would be blissfully unaware of the line speeds of other units, noting what M7R has said in his posting above.

They'd slot in nicely on the Robin Hood line, but nowhere else, which would restrict their use somewhat.

 

[D365]

Personally I'm surprised he has made those comments, the EMT franchise as a whole isn't a poverty spec franchise...

The Class 230s aren't "poverty spec" units either, if they are able to generate additional capacity then I don't see why they should not be used.

 

[superalbs]

It's gotta be said, considering how much the local users (or not) of the Dartmoor Line (Exeter-Okehampton) want their regular service back, it sure is strange that Vivarail haven't proposed a unit to trial there.

It'd be great for all parties involved!

 

[47802]

The Class 230s aren't "poverty spec" units either, if they are able to generate additional capacity then I don't see why they should not be used.

I think would beg to differ on that one, along with their somewhat limited flexibility