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Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

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LNW-GW Joint

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The longest trains that can be accommodated on the Glossop/Hadfield route is a 3 car 323 or equivalent. A 4 car 317 or 319 cannot be accommodated but platform lengthening has been scheduled in so that a 4 car 319 and eventually 331s can be accommodated.

Only 2 stations cannot hold a 319.
Godley and Flowery Field are 74m, the next shortest are 107/108m.
 
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edwin_m

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Thanks very much.

Although maybe not ideal for local all stations stopping services every 2-3 minutes apart, could they be used as a temporary stop-gap until Merseyrail Electrics receive a new fleet?

Classes 317-322 and 455 are Mk3-based with very similar dimensions, 507 and 508 are PEP-based. Going by the hybrid class 455 units that include one 507/508 coach, the 317 would be a bit higher than a 507/508. Also the 319s only have one coach motored out of four, whereas 507s and 508s have two motored out of three, so they might struggle on the curves, gradients and slippery rails of the Merseyrail tunnels. They would also be too long to run in pairs, unless one coach is removed, which for the 319 would involve relocating various essential equipment onto other coaches.
 

507021

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Thanks very much.

Although maybe not ideal for local all stations stopping services every 2-3 minutes apart, could they be used as a temporary stop-gap until Merseyrail Electrics receive a new fleet?

No problem.

I don't think they'd be ideal considering the nature of Merseyrail's stop-start services, and unless they were reduced to three car units (I can't see the cost of doing so being justified for such a short term measure), they wouldn't be able to operate in paired formations. Four cars might be enough outside of the peaks, but they definitely wouldn't be enough at peak times. Eight car formations would be too long.
 

Greybeard33

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Network Rail will still have to lengthen those platforms before 4 x 20m trains can be used, unless ones fitted with SDO are used.

I doubt that it will be easy or cheap to lengthen the platforms at Godley and Flowery Field. They are cheapo 1980s wooden constructions, only just long enough for a 323. Might they have to be completely rebuilt to comply with current requirements?

On the other hand, one might query if Hyde really needs so many stations so close together? If Godley and Flowery Field were closed, the 319s might be able to keep to the 323 timings despite their worse acceleration. And passengers could get some healthy exercise walking or cycling the short distance to Newton for Hyde. <(
 

pjm0512

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I doubt that it will be easy or cheap to lengthen the platforms at Godley and Flowery Field. They are cheapo 1980s wooden constructions, only just long enough for a 323. Might they have to be completely rebuilt to comply with current requirements?

On the other hand, one might query if Hyde really needs so many stations so close together? If Godley and Flowery Field were closed, the 319s might be able to keep to the 323 timings despite their worse acceleration. And passengers could get some healthy exercise walking or cycling the short distance to Newton for Hyde. <(

No!

Hyde and it's seven stations must stay in tact! You know it's rumoured that Dr Beeching lived in Hyde...

Either way, it would be a royal pain to lengthen Godley. One is on the edge of a viaduct, and the other end is very close to quite a narrow bridge over the tracks. Flowery Field would be easier to lengthen I would imagine, however I suppose it would bring the station closer to Newton for Hyde.

Plus a purpose built access road for the Kerry Food site in Godley was opened last year, making the old Godley (Godley East) site more easily accessible. Would it even be worth pondering?...

If I were Northern I'd be putting it as close to the introduction of 4 car trains as possible.
 
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childwallblues

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I hope that they are quieter than 319s. I live 1/2 mile from N-le-W station on the Chat Moss line and hardly ever heard DMUs as they accelerated away but frequently hear the drone of the 319s until they shut off for Earlestown or disappear into the Kenyon cutting. My parents live closer to the line and have remarked about how loud the 'new' trains are.

319s noisier than a 150 or 156? Doubtful.
 

mwmbwls

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How many trains a day terminate/originate at Deansgate? Is the turn back facility at Trafford Park East still in use on a regular basis?
 

Greybeard33

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How many trains a day terminate/originate at Deansgate? Is the turn back facility at Trafford Park East still in use on a regular basis?

One daily I believe - the 1710 Deansgate to Stoke. It is formed from a 323 that departs Oxford Road ECS for Trafford Park East at 1602, remaining in the turnback until 1704.

Once the Chorley line wires are up, I imagine it will be replaced by a cross-city through service.
 

pemma

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One daily I believe - the 1710 Deansgate to Stoke. It is formed from a 323 that departs Oxford Road ECS for Trafford Park East at 1602, remaining in the turnback until 1704.

Once the Chorley line wires are up, I imagine it will be replaced by a cross-city through service.

I heard that working is just so crews retain knowledge of using the turnback facility at Trafford Park.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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319s noisier than a 150 or 156? Doubtful.

Actually it's true! Or at least it is where I am. In other words the propagation characteristics are not what you might expect. I live approximately 330 yards from the WCML and can normally hear a lot of movements. Sprinters are inaudible and Pacers only heard if their routeing causes the wheelsets to squeal. On the other hand 185s and Voyagers can be heard quite clearly. Of the electrics 350s are as inaudible as Sprinters but Pendolinos can be heard nearly every time. 319s are indeed quite loud though the 325s are even louder. And don't get me started on 86s!
 

notlob.divad

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I live about 80 metres away from a line that has gained the 319 in the last few years. I'm not sure the sound is louder per say, but the different nature makes it audible in a different way. The location is just after/before quite a tight bend. DMUs must have kicked in full throttle just after this bend to accelerate which meant that you could hear them. But it was at a low level (under the units) muffled by buildings /fences / vegetation in between. The pacers then had the wheel screech from the curve to add to that.

With the 319s I think most of the noise I hear comes from the Pan-OHLE interface. Being of a higher pitch and crucially at height I don't think it gets this same muffling effect and so it is as if not more noticeable when sitting in my front room. People have been known to look around at the surround sound speakers to wonder where the train thinking it is on the TV.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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The distance for me means that pantograph sounds simply don't carry. What I hear is all motor whine. Tbh I don't find it unpleasant. The lack of engine noise from Pacers and Sprinters suggests to me that the exhaust silencers are actually quite effective and the distance means that the external engine tone doesn't carry. Interestingly 185s and Voyagers having the same engines is very obvious at my distance and you have to listen closely to tell them apart. [/OT]
 

Mordac

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Actually it's true! Or at least it is where I am. In other words the propagation characteristics are not what you might expect. I live approximately 330 yards from the WCML and can normally hear a lot of movements. Sprinters are inaudible and Pacers only heard if their routeing causes the wheelsets to squeal. On the other hand 185s and Voyagers can be heard quite clearly. Of the electrics 350s are as inaudible as Sprinters but Pendolinos can be heard nearly every time. 319s are indeed quite loud though the 325s are even louder. And don't get me started on 86s!

When I worked at Lancaster University you could always hear the Pendolinos going through, they have a quite distinctive sound. This was despite the fact my office didn't face the railway directly (had a part of a building in front to act as a buffer).
 

childwallblues

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One daily I believe - the 1710 Deansgate to Stoke. It is formed from a 323 that departs Oxford Road ECS for Trafford Park East at 1602, remaining in the turnback until 1704.

Once the Chorley line wires are up, I imagine it will be replaced by a cross-city through service.

I assume that you are discounting the twice an hour Liverpool stopper from Platform 5.
 

pemma

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Postings elsewhere suggesting that all of the 13 GN 321/4s (401-410/418-420) are now destined for Anglia instead of 317337-348 and 6 of the 321s. Those 317s heading for Northern instead... Discuss.

Tony Miles says he asked Alex Hynes if he there are plans for 317s to go to Northern and he's confirmed that there aren't any such plans.
 

Class377/5

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319427 has gone for to Brush to see if 319s can have diesel engines put on them and used as bi modes for Northern.
 

DJH1971

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I know it has been mentioned before, but whilst on a London Midlands service from Liverpool to Birmingham on Saturday, I noticed the Thameslink liveried 319 at Allerton.

Any more news on it's fate?
 

507021

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I know it has been mentioned before, but whilst on a London Midlands service from Liverpool to Birmingham on Saturday, I noticed the Thameslink liveried 319 at Allerton.

Any more news on it's fate?

I think it's being used for spares for now and will enter service at a later date, although I'm not certain.
 

childwallblues

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I know it has been mentioned before, but whilst on a London Midlands service from Liverpool to Birmingham on Saturday, I noticed the Thameslink liveried 319 at Allerton.

Any more news on it's fate?

It will be 319219 that you saw at the west end of the depot. 319218 is at the other end.
Both are currently in store awaiting refurbishment at Wolverton Works.
 

Whistler40145

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Without wishing to sound thick, are the proposed conversion of several Class 319 to Diesel/Electric an extra to new units or replacement?
 

Hophead

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Without wishing to sound thick, are the proposed conversion of several Class 319 to Diesel/Electric an extra to new units or replacement?

I read that 8 of the batch of 32 would be converted, so not extras. My question would be "how many units would be required to operate a service between Wigan & Stalybridge via Bolton?".
 
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