Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

[furnessvale]

Despite the fact that Stadler are developing such a locomotive (i.e. a genuine bi-mode item, not just a 'last mile' diesel), what exactly would you do with them in the UK?

http://railcolornews.com/2016/10/08/eu-stadler-rail-valencia-first-locomotive-design-under-swiss-responsibility-under-development/

The obvious answer is freight where classes 66, 68 and 70 spend hundreds of miles under the wires because smaller bits, but too long to be considered "last mile", are not wired.

Whether FOCs, awash with spare diesels, would invest in them, is quite another question.

 

[Sunbird24]

Still no sign of anything leaving. 88002, 88007 and at least one more in the engine running area with some PrasaDuals. 88007 with its super bogies is towering above the rest!
88006 is now on super bogies also. I wonder if there is some remedial work or modifications to the bogies which might also explain the delay in delivery.
Not to mention the fact that the price in £s has risen by about 15% since the Brexit vote. That's the cost of about 2½ locos on the outstanding order of 17.

By the way, there is no way the Euro Dual as built will get any foothold in the UK except on HS1 and HS2 as it is way over the loading gauge for everywhere else being both wider and higher than the UK loading gauge by a considerable amount. The 68/88 body has already been stretched as far as practically possible to fit everything in. Putting it on Co-Co bogies would mean some underfloor equipment may have to be moved above the floor, but where? Perhaps an articulated body with 3 bogies may be the easy answer! Bring back the tender!

88004 was one of a group of several barely visible in the engine test bay this morning (9/11) with 88006 outside next to PrasaDual 3. Sheffield tram 207 looked ready to be loaded onto a long low-loader which was present.

13 Nov update. 88002, 88004, 88007, 88008 & 88009 were all outside in the sun this morning with another branded but unidentified almost hidden behind buildings and a PrasaDual #3 (probably 88006 as it is on superbogies like 88004 & 88007). An unbranded one with no number seen Friday must have been #10 as all the others apart from 88001 have now been branded.

19th November update - all are now in full DRS livery with numbers but most still have no works plates. It appears that up to 5 are now without bogies: 88003, 88004, 88006, 88007 and possible 88010 (almost hidden). During the last week DRS drivers have been on familiarisation and training on the test track with 88009 in both diesel and electric modes.

 

[59CosG95]

Richard Clinnick (of Rail Magazine fame) has said the first of the batch is due to arrive on the 16th of December. Not long now! https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/798487677066612736

 

[Techniquest]

Ooh that's a nice birthday present! I expect it gift wrapped

 

[Sunbird24]

Richard Clinnick (of Rail Magazine fame) has said the first of the batch is due to arrive on the 16th of December. Not long now! https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/798487677066612736

I'll let you all know if I see any signs of them leaving, half are now without bogies.....88003, 4, 6, 7 & 10.
88001 Revolution - this was announced months ago.
88002 Prometheus - looks about ready for shipping.
Most of those outside in the yard at the factory have disappeared, only 6 & 7, both minus bogies, are still there. They might have left or they might have been moved back inside. The MV Wilson Huelva left Sagunto port this evening and is heading for Kings Lynn where it is due to arrive on 16th December. I cannot say what the load is....it looks big enough to take quite a few locomotives...but it could be full of steel coils! Or even oranges! The orange harvest is in full swing now.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

8 days to go for arrival. Any news?

 

[59CosG95]

8 days to go for arrival. Any news?

Judging by Sunbird24's post above, the 88s *MAY* be on the MV Wilson Huelva, bound for King's Lynn, which is due to arrive on the 16th. Emphasis on the *MAY*.

 

[CosherB]

My bet is it is full of oranges!

 

[HSTEd]

With advances in traction converters and more compact transformers I don't think a true Bi-Modes on a British loading gauge is actually impractical. Even Co-Cos.

At which point I would prefer the state organise a railway scrappage scheme for most existing freight diesels.

 

[Photohunter71]

88 002 named Prometheus,, wasn't there a 76/77 back in the day with such a name?

 

[ac6000cw]

Yes - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_76#Production_locomotives

 

[Photohunter71]

Thanks! I thought so!

 

[furnessvale]

With advances in traction converters and more compact transformers I don't think a true Bi-Modes on a British loading gauge is actually impractical. Even Co-Cos.

At which point I would prefer the state organise a railway scrappage scheme for most existing freight diesels.

I have always believed that a full bi-mode is possible within the UK loading gauge.

Given the power output now available to a straight diesel Bo-Bo, I am sure the extra axles and length of a Co-Co, or even a single extra axle of a Co-Bo, would be more than enough to carry the additional electrical equipment required.

As to your second point, would conversion of 66s to bi-modes not be more relevant?

 

[CosherB]

I have always believed that a full bi-mode is possible within the UK loading gauge.

Given the power output now available to a straight diesel Bo-Bo, I am sure the extra axles and length of a Co-Co, or even a single extra axle of a Co-Bo, would be more than enough to carry the additional electrical equipment required.

As to your second point, would conversion of 66s to bi-modes not be more relevant?

And how complicated and expensive is that likely to be?! hock:

 

[59CosG95]

[/I][/B]

And how complicated and expensive is that likely to be?! hock:

Very. Not sure DB can realistically afford to ship every 66 back to Muncie, IN for refitment in their current financial doldrums.

 

[ac6000cw]

Judging by Sunbird24's post above, the 88s *MAY* be on the MV Wilson Huelva, bound for King's Lynn, which is due to arrive on the 16th. Emphasis on the *MAY*.

P.S. King's Lynn port doesn't have a rail connection (it was closed back in BR days - not enough business to justify renewing the infrastructure), so if any locos are on the ship it's very unlikely they will be unloaded there... it's far more likely to be food related products heading for King's Lynn as it's a major food processing and distribution centre.

 

[Steve14]

Will the 88 be tested on Old Dalby before making its appearances properly on mainlines?

 

[59CosG95]

P.S. King's Lynn port doesn't have a rail connection (it was closed back in BR days - not enough business to justify renewing the infrastructure), so if any locos are on the ship it's very unlikely they will be unloaded there... it's far more likely to be food related products heading for King's Lynn as it's a major food processing and distribution centre.

Very good point. However, a quick scan on marinetrafficc.om has yielded this: http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...si:247206000/imo:9138381/vessel:GRANDE_EUROPA
It's travelling from Sagunto to Portbury (which DOES have a railhead), and is a roll-on, roll-off vessel, so it may well have the 88s on. However, it's due to arrive on the 13th, which is a little earlier than the tweeted date of the 16th, so it may have no 88s on board.

 

[furnessvale]

[/I][/B]

And how complicated and expensive is that likely to be?! hock:

Very. Not sure DB can realistically afford to ship every 66 back to Muncie, IN for refitment in their current financial doldrums.

Probably very expensive, but my comment was in response to a suggestion that the state sponsor scrapping them and (presumably) replace them with brand new bi-modes.

 

[leomartin125]

Very good point. However, a quick scan on marinetrafficc.om has yielded this: http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...si:247206000/imo:9138381/vessel:GRANDE_EUROPA
It's travelling from Sagunto to Portbury (which DOES have a railhead), and is a roll-on, roll-off vessel, so it may well have the 88s on. However, it's due to arrive on the 13th, which is a little earlier than the tweeted date of the 16th, so it may have no 88s on board.

You may be onto something my friend. The only day when the two paths at Portbury Automotive Terminal are not scheduled as 'Runs When Required' (Q) is next Tuesday as shown:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/PTBRCAR/2016/12/13/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

So maybe this is our first 88?

Link if the other one fails to work:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H16120/2016/12/13/advanced

 

[59CosG95]

You may be onto something my friend. The only day when the two paths at Portbury Automotive Terminal are not scheduled as 'Runs When Required' (Q) is next Tuesday as shown:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/PTBRCAR/2016/12/13/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

So maybe this is our first 88?

Link if the other one fails to work:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H16120/2016/12/13/advanced

I actually think this may be 6X52, a regular loaded car train running between Portbury and Mossend.

 

[Sunbird24]

The Grande Europa is normally used for the transport of newly-built cars from Sagunto to various scheduled destinations and there were no locos in sight since they disappeared from Albuixech mostly a week earlier, only hundreds of cars waiting on the dockside, along with hundreds of steel coils. The Wilson Huelva had been berthed for at least a week and they could have been loaded as they arrived, straight from the low loader into the hold allowing it to go straight back for the next one. It's only a short journey. They might have gone back inside the factory for all I know. 88009 plus another (could only see the top half) reappeared outside today. All else (except 88006) was hidden by trams and PrasaDuals. The Bulnes was the other possible ship but that went back to Italy. My information from other sources is that they were not expected to leave until January. We just have to wait and see!
As far as converting existing locos, they need roof space to fit a pantograph which does not foul the loading gauge when stowed, and a large area to put the power convertor system, plus lots of ancillaries like extra wiring, controls etc. Space is probably the biggest factor followed by the cost of the conversion compared to the cost of a new locomotive. Then of course there is political legislation to get rid of outdated technology by banning its use long before it is life-expired. We are already seeing Eurostar sets being scrapped after a relatively short life and when there is nothing much wrong with them.

 

[leomartin125]

I actually think this may be 6X52, a regular loaded car train running between Portbury and Mossend.

Bugger! Had my hopes up then!

 

[Rhydgaled]

We are already seeing Eurostar sets being scrapped after a relatively short life and when there is nothing much wrong with them.

Isn't that because Eurostar wanted them scrapped so a competior couldn't use them?

As for the diesel loco scrappage scheme idea, wouldn't any new bi-mode locos sadly be running in diesel mode most of the time anyway? What percentage of current freight flows are under the wires?

 

[furnessvale]

Isn't that because Eurostar wanted them scrapped so a competior couldn't use them?

As for the diesel loco scrappage scheme idea, wouldn't any new bi-mode locos sadly be running in diesel mode most of the time anyway? What percentage of current freight flows are under the wires?

With the demise of coal traffic the WCML must be the busiest freight route in the country. The vast majority of freights are hauled by 66s. Bi-modes hauling these trains would certainly spend most of their time in electric mode.

The only questions are:

Given the surfeit of fairly new diesels, is there any justification in new build locos of any type?

and, if there was any new build, what percentage would need to be straight electric v last mile v bi-mode?

 

[HSTEd]

As for the diesel loco scrappage scheme idea, wouldn't any new bi-mode locos sadly be running in diesel mode most of the time anyway? What percentage of current freight flows are under the wires?

Well most major main lines are now electric, as are things like the Lickey Bank [well it soon will be] and such.

So it might be expected that a bi-mode locomotive would spend most of its time under electric power. Or at least a large minority of it if not.
There is effectively no market for electric freight locomotives these days, leaving only lasts mile versus full bi-mode.
And given the dominance of hte Class 66, even over more specialised locomotive types that are better for specific tasks, it appears a do-anything, go-anything full bi-mode would be preferable.

 

[43096]

Well most major main lines are now electric, as are things like the Lickey Bank [well it soon will be] and such.

So it might be expected that a bi-mode locomotive would spend most of its time under electric power. Or at least a large minority of it if not.
There is effectively no market for electric freight locomotives these days, leaving only lasts mile versus full bi-mode.
And given the dominance of hte Class 66, even over more specialised locomotive types that are better for specific tasks, it appears a do-anything, go-anything full bi-mode would be preferable.

And who pays for an all-singing all-dancing electro-diesel then? Rail freight runs on fine margins (it competes its road haulage) and can't sustainably take on extra costs. If that means running Class 66s under the wires is cheaper, so be it.

 

[HSTEd]

And who pays for an all-singing all-dancing electro-diesel then? Rail freight runs on fine margins (it competes its road haulage) and can't sustainably take on extra costs. If that means running Class 66s under the wires is cheaper, so be it.

Well if we are going undiplomatic - the taxpayer, the same people that pays for the [for the most part] hopelessly uneconomic freight industry.

But with a scrappage scheme an electrodiesel locomotive would win on operational costs versus the Class 66 by virtue of being more modern (Class 66s are hardly spring chickens any more) and having far lower fuel costs y virtue of using electricity for significant portions of their diagrams.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see a couple of hundred of them built, maybe with a few being trim-mode for running off the 3rd rail in 3rd rail territory (or would it probably overload the 3rd rail?)

 

[43096]

Well if we are going undiplomatic - the taxpayer, the same people that pays for the [for the most part] hopelessly uneconomic freight industry.

But with a scrappage scheme an electrodiesel locomotive would win on operational costs versus the Class 66 by virtue of being more modern (Class 66s are hardly spring chickens any more) and having far lower fuel costs y virtue of using electricity for significant portions of their diagrams.

Really. You think the taxpayer will pay for a scrappage scheme, do you? You are living in cloud cuckoo land. You're not the only one, mind you - plenty of people around who think the magic money tree will fund whatever scheme they come up with.