Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

[leomartin125]

2 88s partially visible at Albuixech this morning but numbers not visible. One was in plain blue livery, as per 88001, and the other in full DRS livery.
Pictures of 88003 in Berlin, by Howard Lewsey, can be seen here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155185485477004&set=pcb.1107078619381733&type=3&theater

Could that be the first two Class 88's ready to be shipped to the UK? Maybe DRS want to do something special with the plain blue one...?

 

[Sunbird24]

Could that be the first two Class 88's ready to be shipped to the UK? Maybe DRS want to do something special with the plain blue one...?

Impossible to say but can speculate that the blue one may be 88001 undergoing restoration to as new condition after its testing at Velim just as happened with 68001 a couple of years ago. On the other hand it could be a later one waiting for its vinyls. The other one could be 88002 which has not materialised anywhere else yet. One completed one was likewise partially visible throughout August so likely 88002 or 88003.though the latter was likely in transit in August. My own theory is that they were 88001 and 88002 but since others should appear soon 88004 and 88005 are just as likely. Time will tell.

 

[HSTEd]

If the coaching stock has an ETS generator I imagine 708kW would suffice for a short rake. With the improved efficiency of modern traction motors/control systems that cannot be much worse than a double headed 20 on a Jolly Fisherman. [ 2 Class 20 is ~1140kW at rail and they hauled a lot more than four or five vehicles]

 

[Sunbird24]

I can now confirm that the 88 parked at the back of the engine test bay for the last 2 months is indeed 88002. A brand new 88 with no visible ID was outside this morning but partially hidden by a Sheffield tram.

 

[leomartin125]

I can now confirm that the 88 parked at the back of the engine test bay for the last 2 months is indeed 88002. A brand new 88 with no visible ID was outside this morning but partially hidden by a Sheffield tram.

I see. What do you reckon will happen to 88003 now Innotrans is over?

 

[Sunbird24]

I see. What do you reckon will happen to 88003 now Innotrans is over?

I assume it will be making its way to UK but who knows.
No idea why they are holding on to 88002 unless they want to do more checks on 88001 first so in that case they can incorporate changes before it is shipped and if so that could equally apply to 88003. 88001 only arrived back about the time that the factory closed for the August break so likely they only started to look at the full results of testing this month.
Interesting to note that the first PrasaDual appeared on test before the first 88 and although at least 4 have been built now none are yet complete while Euro 4000s for various companies are coming out on a regular basis, as are trams.

 

[HSTEd]

How about an 'electroturbine' locomotive with a gas turbine instead of a diesel. That might fit in the UK loading gauge and deliver sufficient power to be useful

 

[contrex]

How about an 'electroturbine' locomotive with a gas turbine instead of a diesel. That might fit in the UK loading gauge and deliver sufficient power to be useful

I should have thought running costs and noise would rule out gas turbines.

 

[Sunbird24]

I should have thought running costs and noise would rule out gas turbines.

Not to mention current emission regulations! The smell from 18000 permeated all trains which it passed or hauled, hence its unofficial name - Kerosene Castle. It was a lot stronger than HST brakes.

 

[HSTEd]

I should have thought running costs and noise would rule out gas turbines.

Well if your alternatives are a Class 66 that will run under diesel the whole time or a locomotive that will use a less efficient engine half the time and electric the rest - its not entirely clear which would be better economically.

And gas turbines have come a long way since the days of BR18000

 

[contrex]

And gas turbines have come a long way since the days of BR18000

It looks that way. I was thinking of the French Turbotrain GTEMUs, but I did some Googling, fully expecting to find stuff to beat your argument, when I came across the Russian GT1-001 gas turbine-electric freight loco which runs on LPG. It sounds like a giant - 11,100 HP, B-B-B+B-B-B wheel arrangement, and in 2011 pulled a test train of 16,000 metric tons. But the Russians have a lot of cheap oil and gas. Still, seriously impressive.

 

[gsnedders]

The problem with gas turbines, more than anything else, is their fuel consumption at idle. Bombardier proposed the dual-engine JetTrain a few years back—diesel engine for idle/low speed running, turbine for higher-speed. Another alternative, especially if we're looking at bi-mode stuff, would be to have larger batteries to be able to shut the turbine down, though they'd quite easily become as heavy and bulky as a small engine.

 

[contrex]

I can image that long distance heavy haul freight runs could be arranged so that the turbines spent not much time at idle, especially in a big country like Russia. I believe some French GTEMUs used to shut down half the turbines once the set had got up to cruising speed.

 

[HSTEd]

Recent advances in recuperated gas turbines have significantly improved part load efficiency in turbine plants however.
WR-21 is a good example.... when it works.

If such an engine in the ~3000hp range could be built it would likely still be drastically lighter than equivalent diesels. Even as it is you could fit a pair of ST18Ms of ~1800hp each and still be massively under the weight of a diesel, even with a pair of turboalternators instead of one main alternator.

 

[boby32]

Here's an article about class 88.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/locomotives/stadler-presents-class-88-locomotive-for-drs.html

and also a video of class 88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cAmzw-v9Dw

 

[Sunbird24]

88007 in DRS livery but minus bogies and 88 #8 were both visible this morning so the end of this batch is in sight.

 

[Harbornite]

88007 in DRS livery but minus bogies and 88 #8 were both visible this morning so the end of this batch is in sight.

Once again, thanks for the gen.

 

[leomartin125]

88007 in DRS livery but minus bogies and 88 #8 were both visible this morning so the end of this batch is in sight.

I don't understand why the entire batch would be complete before even the first has been shipped yet... Any news regarding 88003 after Innotrans? Or any 88's headed our way?

 

[Domh245]

I don't understand why the entire batch would be complete before even the first has been shipped yet.

Because they were built to their manufacturing schedule (based on lead times of larger components and a gap in the production line) but are now awaiting modifications before being sent over?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't understand why the entire batch would be complete before even the first has been shipped yet... Any news regarding 88003 after Innotrans? Or any 88's headed our way?

Its only ten locos from first in batch to last in batch. Coupled with it being a new design it is quite likely that most of the construction of each locomotive has proceeded at a certain pace but that the results from the test of 88001 mean that the rest are all waiting final tweaks or final assembly. The visit if 88003 to Innotrans does not mean it is ready for traffic incidentally. It is also possible that 88007 & 88008 are merely shells with not much equipment inside. As Sunbird has said before - there are quite a few locos hanging around waiting to be delivered to other railways. Cannot lay the staff off just because there is nothing that can be completed and delivered so they will build what parts they can until the works fills up !. Just have to be patient Leo.

 

[ac6000cw]

Here's an article about class 88.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/locomotives/stadler-presents-class-88-locomotive-for-drs.html

and also a video of class 88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cAmzw-v9Dw

Off topic, but interesting bit from the press release:

Stadler revealed at the presentation of the class 88 that a new six-axle dual mode locomotive prototype with a 7MW output in electric mode and 3MW under diesel power is being built at Valencia.

...now that is a very serious dual-mode - in old money, 9400 hp electric and 4000 hp diesel - almost up to the power of a Swiss Re 6/6 / Re 620 under the wires but with superior AC traction drive.

 

[CosherB]

Off topic, but interesting bit from the press release:

Stadler revealed at the presentation of the class 88 that a new six-axle dual mode locomotive prototype with a 7MW output in electric mode and 3MW under diesel power is being built at Valencia.

...now that is a very serious dual-mode - in old money, 9400 hp electric and 4000 hp diesel - almost up to the power of a Swiss Re 6/6 / Re 620 under the wires but with superior AC traction drive.

A genuine dual-mode locomotive, unlike the 88. It'll be interesting to see what the top-speed will be - 99 or 125mph?

 

[gsnedders]

A genuine dual-mode locomotive, unlike the 88. It'll be interesting to see what the top-speed will be - 99 or 125mph?

And for what loading gauge it's built. (Aside from it being mentioned at the 88 launch, is there anything to suggest it's for the UK?)

 

[ac6000cw]

The new locomotive will share some components with the existing Euro4000 design, including bogies, but will feature a new bodyshell design. Stadler expects the new dual mode locomotive, which will be offered both four and six-axle variants, to replace the Euro 4000 design in the future.

For the six-axle version this sounds like a mainland Europe sized loco, mainly aimed at freight, so my money would be on 75/80 mph gearing to maximise lower speed tractive effort.

The EURODual has existed as a concept for a while, but Stadler has obviously decided that they need a demonstrator/development prototype.

 

[Sunbird24]

I don't understand why the entire batch would be complete before even the first has been shipped yet... Any news regarding 88003 after Innotrans? Or any 88's headed our way?

The production rate is around 60-80 locos per year so one every 4-5 days on average. If the whole batch were started consecutively that would be about 40-50 days between the first and last appearing. Build takes at least 7 months, sometimes a lot longer but locos appear outside perhaps 3 months before they are completed, so it's quite possible that if they were all outside at once they could all be seen before any got delivered. I have often seen quite a few outside at once but as the only ID on them is a small piece of paper with a few pieces of data written on it in small letters reading it at 50-100 metres away is not easy! The vynils usually go on in the last couple of weeks or so.
It is quite possible that 88003 went to Innotrans incomplete and has returned to the factory but also not impossible that it has made its way to UK but just not been seen by anyone yet, having travelled by road and is now tucked away to be prepared for approval.
Certainly they are not ready yet as 88002 was still being worked on just over a week ago. Quite likely, although the tests at Velim were largely successful there may have been some problems which require attention before they can be put into service, not unusual on any new design/build.
It is worth mentioning that most of the class 67s were held at the same factory awaiting modifications for some time before all being shipped in 2 batches.

 

[JonathanP]

I got to have a look at the new class 88 at Innotrans.

The cab is almost the same as the class 68 and resembles the german style of cab both in the layout and the parts used. It's interesting that no tractive effort indicator is provided, whereas on the continent this is considered of equal importance to the speedometer.

The diesel engine is very compact. In the engine room it is hidden inside a cabinet on one side of the loco like all the other equipment - I wouldn't even have known it was there if the cabinet doors hadn't been open. A bit different to most diesel locos(older ones at least) where you have to squeeze past the engine block!

The other thing that struck me as unusual is that it appears to only have one pantograph, the roof space at one end of the loco is taken up by the engine exhaust. I always assumed electric locos needed one pantograph for each direction, but maybe it's actually for redundancy, which this loco doesn't need?

I asked the lady from Stadler when it was coming to the UK and I think she said November, but I can't remember exactly now.

 

[bnsf734]

All the BR AC Electric locos only had 1 pantograph. Possibly some of the early ones had 2 but if so they were soon modified to 1. I think there is at least 1 class 91 with 2 pans but this is the exception rather than the the rule.

 

[43096]

All the BR AC Electric locos only had 1 pantograph. Possibly some of the early ones had 2 but if so they were soon modified to 1. I think there is at least 1 class 91 with 2 pans but this is the exception rather than the the rule.

Classes 81-85 (or AL1-5 if you prefer) had 2 pans when built. They lost one when converted to dual brake with air tanks placed on the roof at one end.

 

[Emblematic]

Conversely, some of the Class 86 exports to Hungary have had a second pantograph fitted, even though they only had one from new.

 

[59CosG95]

Didn't the 92s have two pantographs?