Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

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59CosG95

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Nothing at all from SOuthampton, so I can only assume then that 88002 was not on board. 88003's due to appear at Innotrans this week as well.
 
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Sunbird24

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Innotrans does not start until 20 Sept. Venue likely to be ready to accept exhibits from 19th Sept. Until 18th another event is being held there (MeLa).
Still no further news from Valencia as of this morning, only visible traction being a couple of PrasaDuals (3 & 4) and a few trams, everything else is either inside or maybe has left.
All the remaining 88s including 88001 are hidden away inside various buildings.
 
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Harbornite

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Here's one of the latest photos of 88003 from das Reich.

http://www.railcolor.net/index.php?nav=1405330&id=9231&action=dview

139 558 fuhr heute von Neuss Gbf nach Mönchengladbach, von dort aus nach Aachen West um eine Lok abzuholen und brachte diese dann vermutlich nach Rheydt. _ Mit @trains.by_me und für die verbesserte Nachtruhe von @henniroggen der diese Lokomotive dummerweise nicht in Kaarst-Büttgen fotografierte
Basically it's being hauled by a Railadventure Class 139 electric locomotive and was picked up at Aachen West.
 
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leomartin125

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Can you clarify what Vossloah are "sodding about" as you seem to have some insight to share?
Okay. Well it seems to me that they have at least one perfectly good Class 88 that hasn't been delivered yet... despite it being possibly ready for delivery. And with everyone speculating when one will arrive, then realising it's a false alarm, it just seems like Vossloh are holding onto them for no reason. I can understand 88003 being at Innotrans, the Class 88 is the first modern bi-mode locomotive in the UK, that is something to shout about. But I'm sure DRS can't be very happy with all this unnecessary waiting, especially if one is ready for shipping from Valencia.

On the other hand, I'm willing to accept any reason why DRS are being kept waiting, unless it's Innotrans related of course...
 

CosherB

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Okay. Well it seems to me that they have at least one perfectly good Class 88 that hasn't been delivered yet... despite it being possibly ready for delivery. And with everyone speculating when one will arrive, then realising it's a false alarm, it just seems like Vossloh are holding onto them for no reason. I can understand 88003 being at Innotrans, the Class 88 is the first modern bi-mode locomotive in the UK, that is something to shout about. But I'm sure DRS can't be very happy with all this unnecessary waiting, especially if one is ready for shipping from Valencia.

On the other hand, I'm willing to accept any reason why DRS are being kept waiting, unless it's Innotrans related of course...
All conjecture on your part. You've no more idea what the delivery schedule to DRS is than I do. Just be patient and wait for an 88 to be delivered.
 

ac6000cw

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DRS and Beacon Rail may not have 'accepted' any of the 88s so far, and/or the built examples may be unfinished or having modifications following the testing at Velim. No point in shipping them until everything is ready...
 

WatcherZero

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Also if you find something that needs changing during testing better its still in the factory than shipped to the UK.
 

Sunbird24

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The following are my thoughts only...
Word is that they had to do some software tweaking on 88001 during the testing to get things as they wanted. With 88001 now back at the factory the designers can analyse the results, rewrite the software properly to incorporate all the tweaks, then test it on the next loco in line (88002) as 88001 will be going through the restoration to "as new" condition, just as happened with 68001.
That is only one item of the many possibilities, there could be hardware changes also.
By the way, it is not Vossloh any more as the factory was sold to Stadler at the beginning of this year, although most of the people are the same.
I cannot say whether 88002 is still at the factory or not as I have not seen it recently. There was one 88 partially visible during the August break but no visible identity and none visible this month, but they have lots of closed bays where they can be out of sight. If I see anything identifiable outside I will report it here.
 
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leomartin125

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The following are my thoughts only...
Word is that they had to do some software tweaking on 88001 during the testing to get things as they wanted. With 88001 now back at the factory the designers can analyse the results, rewrite the software properly to incorporate all the tweaks, then test it on the next loco in line (88002) as 88001 will be going through the restoration to "as new" condition, just as happened with 68001.
That is only one item of the many possibilities, there could be hardware changes also.
By the way, it is not Vossloh any more as the factory was sold to Stadler at the beginning of this year, although most of the people are the same.
I cannot say whether 88002 is still at the factory or not as I have not seen it. There was one 88 partially visible during the August break but no visible identity and none visible this month, but they have lots of closed bays where they can be out of sight. If I see anything identifiable outside I will report it here.
Thank you Sunbird for keeping us all in the loop. I look forward to seeing them once they arrive and acknowledge that this process can take as long as it needs to take.
 

Peter Sarf

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Okay. Well it seems to me that they have at least one perfectly good Class 88 that hasn't been delivered yet... despite it being possibly ready for delivery. And with everyone speculating when one will arrive, then realising it's a false alarm, it just seems like Vossloh are holding onto them for no reason. I can understand 88003 being at Innotrans, the Class 88 is the first modern bi-mode locomotive in the UK, that is something to shout about. But I'm sure DRS can't be very happy with all this unnecessary waiting, especially if one is ready for shipping from Valencia.

On the other hand, I'm willing to accept any reason why DRS are being kept waiting, unless it's Innotrans related of course...
My bold. And that, to answer your own question, will probably be why the manufacturer will be taking so long. It is a new design and barely beyond the prototype stage. I would think it very unlikely that there are no software and/or hardware modifications to do after 88001 came back from its (successful) testing. Also just because 88003 has gone to a trade show does not mean that the design is all finished. That is my conjecture.

Just to show my impatience. Is it likely that the Mossend/Daventry service will be the first service the 88s get used on. As there are ten of them ordered I imagine other uses are in the offing - anyone know what ?.Hauling my beloved 442s on the ECML perhaps ?.
 
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The Planner

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There is a list I have seen with all the headcodes that 88s are proposed to be used on, they will be used out of DIRFT.
 

Sunbird24

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A few years away yet but some are likely to be used on TPE workings when the line is electrified. Initially class 68s are scheduled for those trains once the new stock has been delivered - late next year maybe?
I assume they will be used in multiple on the WCML freights as is current practice with all fast heavy freights north of Preston, and likely for the whole journey.
 

59CosG95

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I was under the impression that 68s + Mk5s were to come into play following the latter's introduction-on the Liverpool-Scarboro' and Liverpool-Newcastle routes. The Liverpool-Newcastle routes would go over to 802 operation once they came on stream, with the Scarboro' trains remaining as 68-hauled ones.

That said, I'm not ruling out a loco change at somewhere like York.
 

Sunbird24

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I was under the impression that 68s + Mk5s were to come into play following the latter's introduction-on the Liverpool-Scarboro' and Liverpool-Newcastle routes. The Liverpool-Newcastle routes would go over to 802 operation once they came on stream, with the Scarboro' trains remaining as 68-hauled ones.

That said, I'm not ruling out a loco change at somewhere like York.
Additional services are planned from Manchester (including the airport) to Middlesbrough and York and these will also be using hauled stock so I would not rule out the use of 88s. No loco change would be needed, the diesel engine is adequate for the lower maximum speeds on the non-electrified sections with a trailing load less than 300 tons. Northallerton to Middlesbrough is only about 20 miles direct, Darlington to Middlesbrough perhaps less.
 

Mollman

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I assume they will be used in multiple on the WCML freights as is current practice with all fast heavy freights north of Preston, and likely for the whole journey.
Think the plan is to use a single class 88 as they should be powerful enough in electric mode to get over Shap etc. on their own (like the 92s). Only reason multiple locos have been used is a legacy of the timings that were available when a single 92 was in use which a single 66 could not manage.
 

Sunbird24

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Think the plan is to use a single class 88 as they should be powerful enough in electric mode to get over Shap etc. on their own (like the 92s). Only reason multiple locos have been used is a legacy of the timings that were available when a single 92 was in use which a single 66 could not manage.
The specified power output of the class 88 is only 4 MW compared to the 5 MW of the class 92. This is not much more than the class 86/6 which work in multiple.
We are still awaiting to hear if it will have upgraded traction motors as compared to the class 68 as at the moment it is said to have the same bogie but traction motors have not been mentioned.
BTW, still no sign of any 88s in Valencia this month, just a sea of South African blue.
 

Domh245

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The specified power output of the class 88 is only 4 MW compared to the 5 MW of the class 92. This is not much more than the class 86/6 which work in multiple.
But then again, the class 90s have a power output of 3.7MW and they work over shap single headed.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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One of the reasons given for double-heading is timing allowance and train weight, details are a few pages back in this thread.
Most WCML freights I see are single-headed class 66s, even over the hills.

There's this item now: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/stadler-introduces-eurodual-uk-locomotive.html
It says the Eurodual design options can include electric power of 7MW, and speed up to 200km/h (125mph).
Built using a modular approach, the Class 88 shares many common design elements with the Eurodual family that Stadler is offering for the wider European market. This design is available as *four- or six-axle variants for all loading gauges and supply voltages, rated at up to 7 MW with a maximum speed of 200 km/h under electric operation. Different diesel engine modules with EU Stage IIIB compliance and rated at up to 3 000 kW will also be on offer.
 
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CosherB

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Most WCML freights I see are single-headed class 66s, even over the hills.

There's this item now: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/stadler-introduces-eurodual-uk-locomotive.html
It says the Eurodual design options can include electric power of 7MW, and speed up to 200km/h (125mph).
Correct, but you're not taking the article in context. From the same piece, specific to the Class 88:

Based on the successful 2800 kW Class 68 Eurolight diesel locomotive, this 160 km/h Bo'Bo' for passenger and freight work offers 4 MW of traction power under 25 kV 50 Hz supply plus a 708 kW diesel powerpack for use on non-electrified lines.
 

furnessvale

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Think the plan is to use a single class 88 as they should be powerful enough in electric mode to get over Shap etc. on their own (like the 92s). Only reason multiple locos have been used is a legacy of the timings that were available when a single 92 was in use which a single 66 could not manage.
Hasn't this been debated before?

Surely the main problem is adhesion. Anything going over Shap has to be able to restart from a dead stand at, say, Scout Green on a wet November night.
 

Sunbird24

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Yes I know. I said "design options".
Most design options are simply not available for the UK loading gauge. Also, beware of confusing loading gauge and track gauge. Under the new regulations the UK loading gauge does not allow a larger engine module in the space available in a class 68/88 body which is specifically designed for a wide route availability. The EuroDual is a different beast altogether, having a redesigned Euro 4000 body which is longer, wider and considerably higher than a 68/88 and would not fit anywhere except HS1/2. Those built so far have 3-axle bogies set to 3' 6" gauge for use in South Africa and when seen alongside the 68/88s absolutely dwarf them.

On the subject of double heading over Shap the WTT shows some examples, most freights are allowed about 1 hour from Carnforth to Penrith but a few are only allowed about 45 minutes and have to be double headed to ensure timekeeping.
 

CosherB

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I think the link to the photo below shows a typical DBC intermodal on the WCML at the moment.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/29713173571/in/photolist-MgDMj4-MbueE1-LnFFAR-MhqFBM-MeRvPi-LgFGxC-MdWewz-MaHhwY-Ma483T-LWwye4-LPxT5b-LUfvYw-LEV5vu-LFTYwv-KR5soQ-LAcKNz-Ltjwc9-KykcPR-Ky8D17-Kygq7e-Lo9BMx-Krme7S-LkpR8d-Kq8Ps6-KVrPpN-KVrNVS-K7qtsm-K6nAaa-KSsUBj-KTcZ4U-KNs6hX-KDBFjk-JCaezu-KwJqVD-K4PHUW-Ko2dMB-JrBhBW-Jpv8zv-Jov5FR-Kjubfg-KTwfhs-K1UspP-KPqy4w-KEvyRU-JLQK6C-JtbHVZ-KmJwzL-JVo3D9-JpLqPw-JbMK3v

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hardly a surprise to read this as well:

Direct Rail Services has confirmed it will “seek to deploy our newest assets onto as many services as possible”, which could spell the end for some of its older locomotives.

The freight operator was responding to questions by RAIL related to Class 57s, which have been stored by DRS at MoD Longtown.

No other classes were mentioned, but the Cumbrian-based company is about to start taking delivery of the first of ten dual-mode Class 88s that are being built by Stadler in Valencia, Spain.
http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2016/09/20/new-88s-set-to-displace-older-drs-locomotives
 
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