UKIP: Do they have a future?

[ExRes]

Will be within 1-2 years . Not now though

Tbf , most of our politics department regard UKIP , Farage and Trump as imbeciles , although they do acknowledge that they all pulled off quite a feat in Brexit , US Election etc

If they regard UKIP and Farage as imbeciles it would be interesting to know what they think of the so called main parties that he turned over, personally I think it says something worrying about your politics department

 

[EM2]

There really is no rational argument for wearing any sort of face mask in a civilised society.

A cyclist wearing a face mask to help protect against air pollution.
A motorcyclist wearing a balaclava for warmth.
Me with a scarf over my mouth when it's -4 at 4am.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There really is no rational argument for wearing any sort of face mask in a civilised society.

Anti-pollution filter/mask? I normally wear one if I need to cycle into central London.

 

[sk688]

If they regard UKIP and Farage as imbeciles it would be interesting to know what they think of the so called main parties that he turned over, personally I think it says something worrying about your politics department

They believe Mrs May is good as a leader and person and playing very well , although disagree with her strategy of attack .They like Corbyn but find him unelectable , same for the Lib Dems

I wouldn't worry about our department, it's part of one of the top 5 schools in England by exam results, if not number 1 or 2 last year

 

[GatwickDepress]

I personally wouldn't ban the burqa but would ban the niqab which is an affront to a civilised society.

As a Muslim woman, I am finding this amusing! The niqab is a veil that covers the face bar the eyes - although some do wear an eye veil with a niqab. The burqa covers the entire face with a mesh veil to see through.

Identity issues aren't really a problem as long as you have a female member of staff and a spare room. I had to ensure the security of a financial transaction a few months ago. The customer was wearing a burqa. It only took a few seconds to verify her photo ID - where she was wearing a hijab.

 

[KN1]

As a Muslim woman, I am finding this amusing! The niqab is a veil that covers the face bar the eyes - although some do wear an eye veil with a niqab. The burqa covers the entire face with a mesh veil to see through.

Identity issues aren't really a problem as long as you have a female member of staff and a spare room. I had to ensure the security of a financial transaction a few months ago. The customer was wearing a burqa. It only took a few seconds to verify her photo ID - where she was wearing a hijab.

I mean't to say hijab not burqa, covering the hair is ok but deliberately hiding the face is not and I would guess 99.9% of people find it intimidating to try and converse with an anonymous piece of material.

 

[Antman]

Anti-pollution filter/mask? I normally wear one if I need to cycle into central London.

A bizarre comparison if I may say so!

 

[Antman]

I mean't to say hijab not burqa, covering the hair is ok but deliberately hiding the face is not and I would guess 99.9% of people find it intimidating to try and converse with an anonymous piece of material.

Exactly that, plus of course security issues.

 

[EM2]

I would guess 99.9% of people find it intimidating to try and converse with an anonymous piece of material.

I suppose I'm in the 0.1% then. I've spoken to customers in niqabs a number of times without a problem.

 

[KN1]

I suppose I'm in the 0.1% then. I've spoken to customers in niqabs a number of times without a problem.

Did they show you their face ?

 

[meridian2]

I mean't to say hijab not burqa, covering the hair is ok but deliberately hiding the face is not and I would guess 99.9% of people find it intimidating to try and converse with an anonymous piece of material.

It depends where the burqa is worn. If it's in a town square in Saudi Arabia it would be unremarkable, if it's in a shopping centre in Croydon it looks distinctly out of place because the UK has no tradition of such garb. It's said that only a third of the information we acknowledge is verbal and the rest is facial expression, body language and tone of voice. The wearer is insisting, intentionally or otherwise, that they are not like the majority of UK citizens, do not want to engage with us, do not share our values of dress or conduct and want to be left entirely alone. In a society that encourages communality and personal discourse as a hard won right, such barriers cut across deeply held beliefs.

Whether such clothing should be banned is another matter. If employees can be disciplined for wearing a discreet gold cross in public, we cannot claim that a religiously inspired full enclosure dress is value neutral. How would someone dressed in a crusader knight costume be perceived walking through a predominantly Muslim area? Such uncompromising clothing escalates mistrust, unless promoting difference is the intention. I don't know of any religious reasons why a simple veil cannot suggest female modesty and religious affiliation in Islamic or Christian female dress?

 

[WelshBluebird]

The way I see it, it is no one else's business what I or someone else decides to wear in public. In terms of in shops, banks etc then fine. But just walking through the street - lets say it would worry me more if we decided we should ban people from wearing something in the street. To me that is a total affront to the idea of letting people live their lives.

The only thing I think should be banned is face masks in public.

Why? What is it to you what someone else wears in the street?
Would you also ban face masks worn by many people on Halloween?

 

[EM2]

A bizarre comparison if I may say so!

Why? Is it not an example of why someone would wear a face mask in civilised society, something which you declared that there was no rational argument for?

 

[Antman]

The way I see it, it is no one else's business what I or someone else decides to wear in public. In terms of in shops, banks etc then fine. But just walking through the street - lets say it would worry me more if we decided we should ban people from wearing something in the street. To me that is a total affront to the idea of letting people live their lives.



Why? What is it to you what someone else wears in the street?
Would you also ban face masks worn by many people on Halloween?

Normally I would agree with you but wearing something that conceals somebodys identity is unacceptable. Wearing a Halloween mask once a year is hardly comparable.

 

[meridian2]

The way I see it, it is no one else's business what I or someone else decides to wear in public.

Would you say it's unprovocative to wear clothing or sing songs signalling historic differences, as happens in Northern Ireland, or provocation is in the eye of the beholder? How about Nazi uniforms? Is it the sign of a civilised society not to rise to provocation, or are there no limits on the freedom to express personal views through clothing?

 

[EM2]

Did they show you their face ?

No, because they were wearing niqabs :roll:

 

[Antman]

Why? Is it not an example of why someone would wear a face mask in civilised society, something which you declared that there was no rational argument for?

A pollution mask obviously serves a specific purpose and doesn't cover the entire face.

 

[EM2]

Is it the sign of a civilised society not to rise to provocation, or are there no limits on the freedom to express personal views through clothing?

How is someone covering themselves provocative?

 

[Antman]

Would you say it's unprovocative to wear clothing or sing songs signalling historic differences, as happens in Northern Ireland, or provocation is in the eye of the beholder? How about Nazi uniforms? Is it the sign of a civilised society not to rise to provocation, or are there no limits on the freedom to express personal views through clothing?

Exactly, it would be nice if people used their own discretion and we didn't need to have laws about it.

 

[EM2]

A pollution mask obviously serves a specific purpose and doesn't cover the entire face.

Therefore your argument is false.

 

[EM2]

Exactly, it would be nice if people used their own discretion and we didn't need to have laws about it.

But you want face coverings banned?

 

[KN1]

No, because they were wearing niqabs :roll:

So how did you know who you were speaking to ?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Normally I would agree with you but wearing something that conceals somebodys identity is unacceptable. Wearing a Halloween mask once a year is hardly comparable.

But a Halloween mask does conceal someones identity. So I don't see how you can say "oh but that is fine" just because it provides you with a difficult question in your beliefs. What about cosplayers who often have masks / items that hide their face as part of their costume? Also, a side question here, why the hell do you think you have the right to know the identity of a random person in the street? You don't. Why do you even care? I don't pay attention to 99% of the people I pass when I am in public so I don't see why it even matters!

Would you say it's unprovocative to wear clothing or sing songs signalling historic differences, as happens in Northern Ireland, or provocation is in the eye of the beholder? How about Nazi uniforms? Is it the sign of a civilised society not to rise to provocation, or are there no limits on the freedom to express personal views through clothing?

1 - Clothing is totally differing to singing songs.

2 - There is a massive difference between banning something because it has historical links to something nasty and banning something because either you do not like it or because you can't see their face. In any case, I think people should be able to wear what they like. But they should not be immune from comment about what they choose to wear. So if someone does decide to wear a Nazi uniform, then fine - but they shouldn't complain when a national newspaper prints a photo of it on their front page! With the Burka, I am happy for it to be criticised. I actually think it is quite an interesting cultural topic, do we dislike it because of security / hiding someones face, or is it more simply because it is totally alien and different to us (which is what I think). But what I disagree with is just saying "we are going to ban it" - what does that actually achieve, apart from putting you on the wrong side of a section of the population?

 

[EM2]

So how did you know who you were speaking to ?

It doesn't matter. They ask me questions, I answer the questions, they say 'thank you'.

 

[KN1]

It doesn't matter. They ask me questions, I answer the questions, they say 'thank you'.

It doesn't matter ? do you work on a market stall ?

 

[meridian2]

How is someone covering themselves provocative?

It provokes because we have no tradition of total body covering, it represents a world view that seeks separation from our history and doesn't aid the normal standards of integration that are desirable in a pluralistic society. Indeed it insists integration is the last thing the wearer desires. Would you want someone behind a total body covering teaching your children or performing surgery? I'm not sure I would. Whether that marks me down as a small minded reactionary I have no idea.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It doesn't matter ? do you work on a market stall ?

Why would it matter? Unless ID is part of the job (like maybe banks etc), I don't see why it does matter. Sure it may be nice to have some kind of interaction, but in terms of just doing your job who cares? I used to work in retail, do you really think I gave a damn about who I served, what they looked like or what they were wearing?

It provokes because we have no tradition of total body covering, it represents a world view that seeks separation from our history and doesn't aid the normal standards of integration that are desirable in a pluralistic society. Indeed it insists integration is the last thing the wearer desires. Would you want someone behind a total body covering teaching your children or performing surgery? I'm not sure I would. Whether that marks me down as a small minded reactionary I have no idea.

I think the talk of integration is a bit of a red herring tbh, for two reasons.

1 - I have seen white British internal migrants fail to integrate into a local community much more often than I have seen a non British immigrant fail to integrate.

2 - Surely it is the persons own free choice what they want to do? Or are you suggestion we should force all people to integrate into their local area (in which case I direct you to my first point above).

 

[EM2]

It doesn't matter ? do you work on a market stall ?

No, I work in a railway station.

 

[Antman]

Therefore your argument is false.

You're just being disingenuous, there is no point going over and over the same thing.

 

[EM2]

Would you want someone behind a total body covering teaching your children or performing surgery? I'm not sure I would. Whether that marks me down as a small minded reactionary I have no idea.

Er, they look pretty well covered to me...