Arriva Rail North DOO

[313103]

There must be a better way to pursue industrial action than strikes which damage the business itself. Is it true that in other countries the trains still run during strike action but revenue isn't collected ?

A nice notion that is, however the law of the land says that the grade of staff who are not affected (ie the barrier staff) cannot take secondary industrial action as this will be declared illegal and the union could have its funds sequestrated.

Yes the Guards could in theory not collect revenue and the trains could still run but with many of the busy stations are manned the loss of revenue would be negligible so industrial action this way would prove futile, all you would have is extra staff provided at excess windows and gate lines (these extra staff will be provided no doubt from other areas of the companies business).

 

[yorksrob]

A nice notion that is, however the law of the land says that the grade of staff who are not affected (ie the barrier staff) cannot take secondary industrial action as this will be declared illegal and the union could have its funds sequestrated.

Yes the Guards could in theory not collect revenue and the trains could still run but with many of the busy stations are manned the loss of revenue would be negligible so industrial action this way would prove futile, all you would have is extra staff provided at excess windows and gate lines (these extra staff will be provided no doubt from other areas of the companies business).

So effectively Conservative union policy is at least partially to blame for the fact that strike action is the only alternative. Oh to live in a country with consensual politics.

 

[Robertj21a]

So effectively Conservative union policy is at least partially to blame for the fact that strike action is the only alternative. Oh to live in a country with consensual politics.

How come 'strike action is the ONLY alternative' ?

 

[yorksrob]

How come 'strike action is the ONLY alternative' ?

I suppose guards could do a 'work to rule' but I don't know whether this would be considered to be strong enough action in any given dispute.

 

[Robertj21a]

I suppose guards could do a 'work to rule' but I don't know whether this would be considered to be strong enough action in any given dispute.

The threat of strike action seems to be thrown into every rail issue nowadays, sometimes to the extent that I wonder if anybody even thinks of what alternatives exist.

 

[yorksrob]

The threat of strike action seems to be thrown into very rail issue nowadays, sometimes to the extent that I wonder if anybody even thinks of what alternatives exist.

Ideally there would be some form of action which is very noticeable to the TOC, but which wouldn't damage the longer term prospect for the railway by putting off discretionary travellers. Whether such a thing exists is difficult to know for a non-railwayman.

 

[313103]

I suppose guards could do a 'work to rule' but I don't know whether this would be considered to be strong enough action in any given dispute.

This was declared illegal under the trade union reform act. The argument laid down was that staff should already be working to rule.

 

[LETHLFH]

Generally what is meant by work to rule is an overtime ban. So no rest day working, no Sunday's and no working past your booked finish time.

 

[kevconnor]

Work to rule tends to also occur where there may be some manner of Spanish Practices still in place. These tend to be in the minority however and are diminishing further over time.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm under the impression union ballot papers give three options:
1. No action
2. Action short of a strike
3. A strike

But the union are allowed to recommend to members to vote in favour of option 3 and members are allowed to vote in favour of both 2 and 3, meaning option 2 is only likely to go ahead if they fail to get enough votes for option 3. It's also a very vague option - everyone knows what a strike is but action short of a strike can mean several different things.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm under the impression union ballot papers give three options:
1. No action
2. Action short of a strike
3. A strike

But the union are allowed to recommend to members to vote in favour of option 3 and members are allowed to vote in favour of both 2 and 3, meaning option 2 is only likely to go ahead if they fail to get enough votes for option 3. It's also a very vague option - everyone knows what a strike is but action short of a strike can mean several different things.

Perhaps there should be another, between 1 and 2 - 'Continue with negotiations'.

 

[313103]

Perhaps there should be another, between 1 and 2 - 'Continue with negotiations'.

I would then counter act this by saying 'Continue with Negotiations, but must be completed within a time frame (Nominally within 6 weeks, bearing in mind that to get to a strike scenario in most cases it has often taken up to a year to get there).

As an aside those on here who advocate a No Strike scenario for workers with the words 'Continue with Negotiations' would note that would never work in favour for the workforce, if a group of workers have a problem and the company know they cant strike, the problems will continue to exist as the company will have the upper hand.

 

[313103]

Generally what is meant by work to rule is an overtime ban. So no rest day working, no Sunday's and no working past your booked finish time.

The union are not allowed to mention 'Work to Rule' they must state specifically what they intend to do. So if it is a Overtime ban it must be stated as such.

 

[Robertj21a]

I would then counter act this by saying 'Continue with Negotiations, but must be completed within a time frame (Nominally within 6 weeks, bearing in mind that to get to a strike scenario in most cases it has often taken up to a year to get there).

As an aside those on here who advocate a No Strike scenario for workers with the words 'Continue with Negotiations' would note that would never work in favour for the workforce, if a group of workers have a problem and the company know they cant strike, the problems will continue to exist as the company will have the upper hand.

?? - has anybody on here suggested a No Strike scenario ??

 

[Bletchleyite]

The union are not allowed to mention 'Work to Rule' they must state specifically what they intend to do. So if it is a Overtime ban it must be stated as such.

I thought "work to rule" was classically for example that if 30 minutes were allocated to prepare a train, all 30 would meticulously be used, even if in practice performing all the tasks would take 20.

 

[yorksrob]

The union are not allowed to mention 'Work to Rule' they must state specifically what they intend to do. So if it is a Overtime ban it must be stated as such.

They could presumably specify a list of actions ?

 

[PR1Berske]

Northern's response to the announcement of new strike action


Source: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...to-rmt-announcing-three-days-of-strike-action

Northern’s has responded to RMT announcing three days of strike action on Saturday 8th, Sunday 9th and Monday 10th July

Richard Allan, Northern's deputy managing director, said: “We are deeply disappointed and hugely frustrated that RMT is choosing to cause more pain for our colleagues and customers rather than get round the table to talk first. Only this week we wrote to RMT again, urging them to engage in meaningful modernisation talks with us. We have been clear that for all our conductors we are prepared to guarantee jobs and current pay, and continue with annual pay reviews, if we can reach agreement with RMT.

“The RMT’s dispute will be solved by talking, not by unnecessary strike action which impacts our customers, our employees, businesses and the economy of the North. Should the RMT strike action go ahead, we are committed to keeping our customers on the move as much as possible.”

 

[HowardGWR]

Northern's response to the announcement of new strike action


Source: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...to-rmt-announcing-three-days-of-strike-action

Yes I read this but I just wonder what they mean by 'keep our customers on the move'. Has anyone experience of the last Northern RMT strike? How much was cancelled?

 

[northwichcat]

Yes I read this but I just wonder what they mean by 'keep our customers on the move'. Has anyone experience of the last Northern RMT strike? How much was cancelled?

There have been recent strikes on both weekdays and Saturdays. Some lines and sections of lines were completely shut down, other lines and sections of lines had a service most hours from around 7am to 6pm when it was a weekday strike and a bit later start and finish when it was a Saturday strike. They did organise replacement buses where there was no rail service and no alternative. Also tickets were accepted on Arriva and Yorkshire Tiger bus services. Monthly or longer season tickets were also accepted on Metrolink.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought "work to rule" was classically for example that if 30 minutes were allocated to prepare a train, all 30 would meticulously be used, even if in practice performing all the tasks would take 20.

For the benefit of those not well versed in railway terminology, what is the exact meaning of the word "rule", when used in the phrase "work to rule". Is it anything to do with the rule book that is sometimes mentioned on this website.

 

[coxxy]

For the benefit of those not well versed in railway terminology, what is the exact meaning of the word "rule", when used in the phrase "work to rule". Is it anything to do with the rule book that is sometimes mentioned on this website.

The rule book is followed to the letter at all times.. or at least should be..

It's more ensuring that no favours are done, taking the exact amount of time agreed up on to perform certain duties ie door tests etc and obviously not working any overtime other than what is contracted.

It may now sound like it will achieve much by working to rule but the railway is pretty much run on favours and overtime and massively hurts the TOC's

 

[HowardGWR]

There have been recent strikes on both weekdays and Saturdays. Some lines and sections of lines were completely shut down, other lines and sections of lines had a service most hours from around 7am to 6pm when it was a weekday strike and a bit later start and finish when it was a Saturday strike. They did organise replacement buses where there was no rail service and no alternative. Also tickets were accepted on Arriva and Yorkshire Tiger bus services. Monthly or longer season tickets were also accepted on Metrolink.

Perhaps selfishly I had in mind my own planned trip (see post #1284). I am still wondering whether I should cancel my tickets, incurring the cancel fee and go by car, or perhaps not at all. I think I can still cancel my Yorkshire Dales bookings with perhaps £100 hit in cancellation fees.

I just wonder whether the RMT have any notion of what damage they are doing to northern businesses and whether they feel that it may be also self-inflicted damage, especially after the knock to the area, agricultural and tourist industry damage, that will follow Brexit.

Edit: thanks to JCollins for info, much appreciated.

 

[kevconnor]

For the benefit of those not well versed in railway terminology, what is the exact meaning of the word "rule", when used in the phrase "work to rule". Is it anything to do with the rule book that is sometimes mentioned on this website.

Work to rule is about working to the rule book, others may know better than I (not working in the industry) but with the rule book for railways being already quite heavily adhered to it is entirely possible a work to rule may not be possible.

Times where is can work are where there are rules in place but these may not be strictly adhered to on a day to day basis, an example I am aware of is from Royal Mail, if there is a letter which may not have a full address the rules use to say it should not be processed until the full address can be identified. The work to Rule in this case of the address for Altrincham Station is:

Stamford New Road
Altrincham
Cheshire
WA14 1EN

It may be quite common for the address to omit the county (Cheshire), or the address, if handwritten, may be deemed partly or wholly illegible. In normal circumstances it may be possible for any employee of RM to be able to readily identify where it is to be delivered to. However if there was a work to rule in place, if only part of the address was missing or was not readable then it would be referred to a supervisor who would pass it onto a specialist team within each sorting office. They would then need to identify where it was to be delivered to, write this on the letter and send it back for processing.

This would inevitably slow down the post by adopting a stricter interpretation of the rules in place within Royal Mail and if was being adopted by a group of staff would result in a large backlog of letters and an increased workload.

 

[IanXC]

"Work to rule" is a general term in industrial relations; it has no relationship with the "rule book" as exists on the railway.

 

[northwichcat]

an example I am aware of is from Royal Mail, if there is a letter which may not have a full address the rules use to say it should not be processed until the full address can be identified.

Stamford New Road
Altrincham
Cheshire
WA14 1EN

Although Royal Mail's current 'preferred address format' includes the postal town in capitals and no county: https://personal.help.royalmail.com...~/clear-addressing---how-to-address-your-mail

So it should be*:
Stamford New Road
ALTRINCHAM
WA14 1EN

While if you were writing the address for Hale station it would contain
Hale
ALTRINCHAM

* I'm not sure if you should actually say Altrincham railway station, Altrincham Interchange or both - the station is within the interchange.

 

[Tractor37]

Perhaps selfishly I had in mind my own planned trip (see post #1284). I am still wondering whether I should cancel my tickets, incurring the cancel fee and go by car, or perhaps not at all. I think I can still cancel my Yorkshire Dales bookings with perhaps £100 hit in cancellation fees.

The 16.26 won't run at that exact time but the Leeds-Skipton has had hourly trains on previous strike days

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

"Work to rule" is a general term in industrial relations; it has no relationship with the "rule book" as exists on the railway.

I did mean to ask, perhaps not very clearly being an "old codger", what the exact meaning of "rule" implies in the phase "work to rule". Can someone clarify that exact meaning.

 

[HowardGWR]

The 16.26 won't run at that exact time but the Leeds-Skipton has had hourly trains on previous strike days

Thanks, that is at least partially comforting. I also noted a bus from Leeds at 1700 (the last one) but that takes nearly 2 hours to get to Skipton. The Skipton car hire people normally go home at 1730.
(but perhaps I can encourage them to wait on). It's all so unnecessarily concerning. I wonder how many thousands of pax are in the same situation. The Northern area is a very large one and I wonder if feeling for the strike is the same in every corner.

 

[plymothian]

I did mean to ask, perhaps not very clearly being an "old codger", what the exact meaning of "rule" implies in the phase "work to rule". Can someone clarify that exact meaning.

"Work to rule" means to follow procedures exactly with no deviation. "Rule" is the standard operating procedures / health and safety regulation / employment contract etc in any business. Essentially anything that is written down as 'how this should be done'.

 

[DarloRich]

For the benefit of those not well versed in railway terminology, what is the exact meaning of the word "rule", when used in the phrase "work to rule". Is it anything to do with the rule book that is sometimes mentioned on this website.

No. It has no relation with any railway "rule book" which must be adhered to at all times. "Work to rule" is a different term.

It means working to the exact terms of your contract. If the contract says 8 hours a day you do 8 hours a day and nothing more. It is those little favours here and there that you do for no reward that make any business run properly. I am sure you know that....................